Ultimate Death Toll Rankings

[Hugorfonics]

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

No.  Foraging for food means seizing supplies, and killing those who resist.  But most people don’t resist, because it would be pointless.

But some did. And it's all awful and illegal.

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Bloody Mummers and Ser Gregor’s men murder, rape, and torture for the fun of it.

They didn't torture for the fun of it, Vargo may like chopping of hands and Tickler may like tickling, but they were both doing their job. (Well Vargo was working for himself). 

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

They pillage, in addition to those pastimes.

Sounds an awful lot like Hessians. 

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

Even among hard cases, gnawing off a septa’s tits

A very specific and hard case which is the work of Biter, who literally escaped from a maximum security prison and was able to lose himself in the fog of war. 

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

and gang-raping an innkeep’s daughter, in peacetime, is abnormal.

But in war, for regulars and especially sellswords, it's a thing.

https://www.olddutchchurchnyc.org/the-new-nation

[Aldarion]

On 9/10/2023 at 4:36 PM, SeanF said:

The Bloody Mummers are just a bunch of psychopaths, not at all typical of soldiers of fortune.  They resemble Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, or the Ustase, more than the Hessians or King’s German Legion.

War is just an excuse for their favourite pastimes, murder, rape, and torture.

Eh... when it comes to World War 2 in Yugoslavia, you also had Chetniks and Partisans, neither of whom were any better than the Ustashe (some quick reading: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). But the reason why all three (Ustashe, Chetniks, Partisans) were psychopathic murderers was because these were ideologically charged formations... Ustashe were Croatian ultranationalists, Chetniks were Serbian ultranationalists, and Partisans were Communist supranationalists.

So while Bloody Mummers are definitely a bunch of psychopaths, comparing them to the above or similar (Waffen SS) formations of the Second World War is incorrect, at least as far as their motivation and origins are concerned. Bloody Mummers are brigands, as simple as that, people using war as an excuse for all sorts of heinous acts. Closest comparison would in fact be various irregular military forces of the Ottoman Border (Akinjis and Azabs in the Ottoman ranks, Uskoks and Haiduks on the Croatian side), people who nominally fought a war for the kingdom but really just lived from plunder, and were liable to simply burn, pillage and loot to get it - causing as many problems for their own side in the process as they solved.

[Craving Peaches]

The Hessians act like typical mercenaries (maybe even slightly better since they have a reputation for discipline). The Bloody Mummers have the worst reputation among mercenaries in universe:

Quote

"The old man's right for once," Ser Jorah said. "The Second Sons are an old company, and not without valor, but under Mero they've turned near as bad as the Brave Companions..."

Quote

Men like Walton would kill at their lord's command, rape when their blood was up after battle, and plunder wherever they could, but once the war was done they would go back to their homes, trade their spears for hoes, wed their neighbors' daughters, and raise a pack of squalling children. Such men obeyed without question, but the deep malignant cruelty of the Brave Companions was not a part of their nature.

Quote

About the best that could be said for Gregor's men was that they were not quite as vile and violent a bunch as the Brave Companions.

So clearly they are worse than average.

Therefore, I don't think it makes any sense to view the Hessians as somehow comparable to the Bloody Mummers, for the above and reasons discussed here (Why Germans Fought in the Revolutionary War—for the British | HISTORY). And also the obvious differences between them - Hessians are state forces being rented out, are not composed of numerous different types of peoples as we see the Bloody Mummers are, answer to the Landgrave of Hesse Cassel or whomever (not the mercenary in charge of the group), plunder is officially banned, and so on. I imagine a Hessian would be insulted by such a comparison.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Eh... when it comes to World War 2 in Yugoslavia, you also had Chetniks and Partisans, neither of whom were any better than the Ustashe (some quick reading: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). But the reason why all three (Ustashe, Chetniks, Partisans) were psychopathic murderers was because these were ideologically charged formations... Ustashe were Croatian ultranationalists, Chetniks were Serbian ultranationalists, and Partisans were Communist supranationalists.

So while Bloody Mummers are definitely a bunch of psychopaths, comparing them to the above or similar (Waffen SS) formations of the Second World War is incorrect, at least as far as their motivation and origins are concerned. Bloody Mummers are brigands, as simple as that, people using war as an excuse for all sorts of heinous acts. Closest comparison would in fact be various irregular military forces of the Ottoman Border (Akinjis and Azabs in the Ottoman ranks, Uskoks and Haiduks on the Croatian side), people who nominally fought a war for the kingdom but really just lived from plunder, and were liable to simply burn, pillage and loot to get it - causing as many problems for their own side in the process as they solved.

Fair enough about Yugoslavia, but Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger were basically the scum of Germany's prison population, sent to fight as alternative to execution or the concentration camps.

[SeanF]

56 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Hessians act like typical mercenaries (maybe even slightly better since they have a reputation for discipline). The Bloody Mummers have the worst reputation among mercenaries in universe:

So clearly they are worse than average.

Therefore, I don't think it makes any sense to view the Hessians as somehow comparable to the Bloody Mummers, for the above and reasons discussed here (Why Germans Fought in the Revolutionary War—for the British | HISTORY). And also the obvious differences between them - Hessians are state forces being rented out, are not composed of numerous different types of peoples as we see the Bloody Mummers are, answer to the Landgrave of Hesse Cassel or whomever (not the mercenary in charge of the group), plunder is officially banned, and so on. I imagine a Hessian would be insulted by such a comparison.

Tywin himself remarks that some work is fit for Dogs and Goats (ie Clegane's and Hoat's men), but a lot of Lannister soldiers want no part of it.

[Hugorfonics]

48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Hessians act like typical mercenaries (maybe even slightly better since they have a reputation for discipline). The Bloody Mummers have the worst reputation among mercenaries in universe:

All mercenaries are terrible, they're Wagner. These are private armies whose only interest is blood and money. As these are usually the foargers and scouts pillage and other high crimes become a common occurrence.

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

So clearly they are worse than average.

The second sons under Mero were just as bad, Stormcrows and Darrio wanted to RW the slavers. All sellswords are scum by definition 

54 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Therefore, I don't think it makes any sense to view the Hessians as somehow comparable to the Bloody Mummers, for the above and reasons discussed here (Why Germans Fought in the Revolutionary War—for the British | HISTORY

It says they pillaged. From the last shit I posted, a direct order from George Washington, 

"His Excellency General Washington strictly forbids all the officers and soldiers of the Continental army, of the militia and all recruiting parties, plundering any person whatsoever, whether Tories or others. The effects of such persons will be applied to public uses in a regular manner, and it is expected that humanity and tenderness to women and children will distinguish brave Americans, contending for liberty, from infamous mercenary ravagers, whether British or Hessians."

.

That's how I'd describe Vargo, an infamous mercenary ravager, no more no less.

57 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And also the obvious differences between them - Hessians are state forces being rented out, are not composed of numerous different types of peoples as we see the Bloody Mummers are, answer to the Landgrave of Hesse Cassel or whomever (not the mercenary in charge of the group), plunder is officially banned, and so on.

And so on? Have you read anything I cited?

Hessians in America were almost exclusively smallfolk with little military training who got paid next to nothing and every officer looked the other way when it came to plunder, when they didn't just take their men's booty for themselves that is.

59 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I imagine a Hessian would be insulted by such a comparison.

Fuck those guys though lol

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

All mercenaries are terrible, they're Wagner. These are private armies whose only interest is blood and money. As these are usually the foargers and scouts pillage and other high crimes become a common occurrence.

The second sons under Mero were just as bad, Stormcrows and Darrio wanted to RW the slavers. All sellswords are scum by definition 

It says they pillaged. From the last shit I posted, a direct order from George Washington, 

"His Excellency General Washington strictly forbids all the officers and soldiers of the Continental army, of the militia and all recruiting parties, plundering any person whatsoever, whether Tories or others. The effects of such persons will be applied to public uses in a regular manner, and it is expected that humanity and tenderness to women and children will distinguish brave Americans, contending for liberty, from infamous mercenary ravagers, whether British or Hessians."

.

That's how I'd describe Vargo, an infamous mercenary ravager, no more no less.

And so on? Have you read anything I cited?

Hessians in America were almost exclusively smallfolk with little military training who got paid next to nothing and every officer looked the other way when it came to plunder, when they didn't just take their men's booty for themselves that is.

Fuck those guys though lol

Pretty well any European soldier was a soldier of fortune, in the 15th to 18th centuries, as feudal retinues ceased to be a thing, but before armies became motivated by nationalism.

But, it would be wrong to think they all behaved like the Bloody Mummers or Ser Gregor's followers.  And, it's quite plain from the books that their behaviour is at the extreme end of what happens in war.  The author himself has said that an outfit like The Golden Company is in a different league to the Bloody Mummers.

Edited September 12, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

All mercenaries are terrible, they're Wagner. These are private armies whose only interest is blood and money. As these are usually the foargers and scouts pillage and other high crimes become a common occurrence

Some are worse than others though, this is made clear in the text and is also true in real life.

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It says they pillaged

Everyone pillages.

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

direct order from George Washington,

And you don't think he has any bias or ulterior motives in describing the Hessians that way?

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hessians in America were almost exclusively smallfolk with little military training

They are trained soldiers. 7% of the entire population of Hesse Cassel was in the army. Yes, some were conscripted, but they are trained, it is not like they are grabbing people off the street and instantly dropping them into battle. They have a reputation for being disciplined , they wouldn't have this reputation if they were untrained peasants acting like the Bloody Mummers.

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Fuck those guys though lol

Of course, were they fighting for the Americans I imagine you'd think differently....

Edited September 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

Prussia relied partly on mercenaries from other German states, but Hesse-Kassel employed only Landeskinder (literally "children of the land", or native men).^[11] The military was the dominant force in the country. All Hessian males registered for military service at the age of seven, and from the age of 16 until 30 were required to present themselves annually to an official for possible recruitment. Only those whose occupation was considered vital to the country were exempted. Those deemed expendable, such as vagrants and the unemployed, could be conscripted at any time.

Hessian military service was notably strict and demanding, emphasizing iron discipline through draconian punishment. However, morale was generally high, and soldiers were said to take pride in their service. Officers were usually well-educated, and in contrast to most European armies, promoted on the basis of merit. Soldiers were paid relatively high wages, and their families were exempt from certain taxes. Although plunder was officially forbidden, it remained common practice (as in most military forces at the time), offering another incentive for service.^[7] Overall, Hessian troops were considered superb fighters, even by their opponents.^[7]

[Craving Peaches]

Also, the Hessians technically weren't even mercenaries but auxiliaries.

Quote

The characterization of Hessian troops as "mercenaries" remains controversial over two centuries later. American history textbooks refer to them as "mercenaries", and they are still widely perceived as such in the popular imagination of the United States.^[17] American historian Charles Ingrao describes Hesse as a "mercenary state" whose prince rented out his regiments to fund his governmental expenditures.^[18] By contrast, British historian Stephen Conway referred to them as "auxiliaries".^[19] Military historians Dennis Showalter and Rodney Atwood note that Hessians would not have been legally considered mercenaries at the time, but rather auxiliaries. Whereas mercenaries served a foreign ruler in an individual capacity, auxiliaries forces were controlled by a state, and their foreign service was in direct competition to professional mercenaries.^[20][10] (Similarly, in the twentieth century, the Moroccan Goumiers were attached as auxiliaries to the French Army of Africa.)

Hessians would not be categorized as mercenaries under modern international law. Protocol I (1977) to the Geneva Convention defines a mercenary as "any person who ... has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces."^[21] Hessian troops served in America on official duty from the armed forces of Hesse-Cassel and Hesse-Hanau.^[22] Protocol I also requires a mercenary to be "promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party."^[21] While not formally incorporated into the British military, Hessian troops were paid the same wages as British soldiers.^[23

Everything distinguishing them from the Bloody Mummers aside, I find them very interesting to read about, and the Landgrave appears to have used the money raised to finance all sorts of cool stuff.

Quote

The Hessian military became a major source of economic strength. Hesse-Kassel manufactured its own weapons and uniforms, and its textile industry was so prosperous from supplying the military that workers could afford to buy meat and wine every day. The revenue from renting the army to the British equaled roughly 13 years' worth of taxes,^[7] allowing the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, Friedrich II, to reduce taxes by one-third between the 1760s and 1784.^[10][12] A self-styled enlightened despot, he also oversaw public-works projects, administered a public welfare system, and encouraged education.^[7] American historian Edward Jackson Lowell lauded Friedrich II for spending British money wisely, describing him as "one of the least disreputable of the princes who sent mercenaries to America".^[13]

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

All mercenaries are terrible, they're Wagner. These are private armies whose only interest is blood and money. As these are usually the foargers and scouts pillage and other high crimes become a common occurrence.

The second sons under Mero were just as bad, Stormcrows and Darrio wanted to RW the slavers. All sellswords are scum by definition

This isn't the place for a political discussion about current affairs, but it is naive to assume that reports we receive of Wagner's activities are any less subject to PR than the reports of the Hessians in America were 250 years ago. I know which side I'm on (inasmuch as it matters) but we still need to apply critical thinking to what we're being told.

Going back to history (a safer topic) and the world of ASoIaF (the actual topic), I think it's worth pointing out that there is a distinction of sorts between auxiliaries, adventurers (and foreign volunteers) and mercenaries. All are, however, often banded under the heading of "mercenaries" (or "sellswords"), especially by their enemies given the negative conotations. There is also overlap between the various categories, and some units may include both adventurers and "true" mercenaries.

In the Spanish civil war, for instance, the Condor Legion were state-supplied auxiliaries. The International Brigades were auxiliary units populated almost entirely by volunteer-adventurers. Both would doubtless have been described as mercenaries by opposing propaganda.

In ASoIaF, compare the Golden Company, Bronn, the Stormcrows, Sallador Saan, Jorah, Groleo's ships, the Brave Companions. They all fight for different reasons (sometimes, as in the Golden Company's case, a blend of reasons) with varying loyalty to their employers. All would be classed as "sellswords". Given the range of levels of integrity, motivation, and characters on display, the designation "sellsword" therefore doesn't tell us anything useful about how they're likely to behave.

Indeed, the line that sellswords are always morally worse than regular troops is clearly given the lie in ASoIaF itself. The Mountain's Men are regulars, and behave worse than any other group we see bar the Brave Companions. You say Daario and the Stormcrows wanted to commit a red wedding against the slavers: the Bolton and Frey men actually did it.

Quote

 

It says they pillaged. From the last shit I posted, a direct order from George Washington, 

"His Excellency General Washington strictly forbids all the officers and soldiers of the Continental army, of the militia and all recruiting parties, plundering any person whatsoever, whether Tories or others. The effects of such persons will be applied to public uses in a regular manner, and it is expected that humanity and tenderness to women and children will distinguish brave Americans, contending for liberty, from infamous mercenary ravagers, whether British or Hessians."

 

Note that he also includes the British to be potential "infamous mercenary ravagers" there, which gives some indication as to how broadly the term "mercenary" is being applied here and how reliable it is as a source for crimes by Hessians in particular. Indeed I don't read this as saying "all Hessians are infamous mercenary ravagers", rather "some infamous mercenary ravagers are Hessian".

Really this is just an order against plundering, with associated moral pressure not to let the side down through bad behaviour. I would be interested to see the corresponding order against plundering that was issued to the Hessians.

I note also the implication here that the effects of loyalist Americans will still be taken and repurposed for military use, just in a more polite manner than traditional plunder.

Here's another George Washington quote:

Quote

“One thing I must remark in favour of the Hessians, and that is, that our people who have been prisoners generally agree that they received much kinder treatment from them, than from British officers and soldiers”

Quote

Hessians in America were almost exclusively smallfolk with little military training who got paid next to nothing and every officer looked the other way when it came to plunder, when they didn't just take their men's booty for themselves that is.

Officers like Leopold de Heister, who had men convicted of plundering in New York communally whipped?

The Hessian troops in America were paid the same as the British ones. This may not have been very much, but only because military wages in general in the C18 were low.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Alester Florent

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Robert Baratheon should receive most of the "credit" for the most casualties.  His incompetence brought Westeros to its lowest point in history.  He inherited a very rich treasury from King Aerys Targaryen and squandered away.  Robert and his lackeys, Jon Arryn and Ned Stark squandered the Targaryen treasures.  The Baratheons quarreled among themselves over the right to rule. 

Jon Arryn and Ned Stark for enabling Robert to stay on the throne despite the damage the big boy was causing.

Stannis and Renly Baratheon

Jon Snow for destroying the ancient order which protected Westeros from the Others.  Jon will do much more harm when he helps the Others cross under the Wall to Westeros. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Jon Snow for destroying the ancient order which protected Westeros from the Others.

Jon didn't destroy any ancient order. Last time I checked the Watch was still standing. If there is trouble at the Watch it will be because of Bowen's idiotic decision to shank the one person holding all the factions together.

9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Jon will do much more harm when he helps the Others cross under the Wall to Westeros. 

Fanfiction, unless you can back it up with something in the text. We are all waiting.

[James West]

Who has the highest death toll so far?  Past tense.  Jaime Lannister set in motion the bloody war of the five kings.  Whose actions will bring death to the most number of people in the future?  Jon Snow.  It was his job to protect everything south of the wall from the Others.  He lost his devotion to duty and put the Night's Watch in a weakened state because he meddled in the game of thrones.