Renly deserved better

[Guess who's back]

Robb may have never lost a battle but Renly never made any mistakes at all. 

At the right time Renly offered his help to Ned to seize control over Kings Landing but the offer was regretfully refused.

He united Stormlands and Reach and didn't rush to Kings Landing, letting his enemies suffer losses while raising the morale of his own men. 

Unlike Stannis was willing to ally with Robb with terms that the Northmen at some point would accept.

He offered Stannis a far more generous deal than what Stannis was offering to Renly. 

And then the deus ex machina happens which ultimately causes the doom of house Baratheon, dooms the north and gives Lannisters the full reign of the seven kingdoms. 

 

[James Steller]

5 minutes ago, Guess who's back said:

Renly never made any mistakes at all. 

Even CravingPeaches isn’t this sycophantic towards Renly. 

[Craving Peaches]

Renly made one mistake, and that was going to treat with Stannis. He should have just sent Randyl at the head of an army to crush him. Stannis only agreed to the parley so he could kill Renly. Notice how both times the assassin is used there is a parley beforehand so Melisandre can see the target's face? And who suggested the parley? Melisandre...

Of course, this is not something Renly could reasonably have know, and under usual circumstances it would not have made a difference to attend the parley, so I don't hold it against him.

But yes, Renly deserved better 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Odej]

No, he didn't. Next.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Guess who's back said:

And then the deus ex machina happens which ultimately causes the doom of house Baratheon, dooms the north and gives Lannisters the full reign of the seven kingdoms.

Imagine if Renly hadn't died. Whole realm stable and unified to face Daenerys and the Others. Legitimate Baratheon on the Throne. If only.

[James Steller]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Imagine if Renly hadn't died. Whole realm stable and unified to face Daenerys and the Others. Legitimate Baratheon on the Throne. If only.

That is the optimistic outcome. More likely it would tear the kingdom apart in other ways. The peace depended on the grand alliance between the North, Stormlands, Vale, and Riverlands. Renly can say what he wants, but his bid for kingship helped tear that alliance apart. Blame Stannis for his part, but Renly was no innocent in this story. 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, James Steller said:

That is the optimistic outcome. More likely it would tear the kingdom apart in other ways. The peace depended on the grand alliance between the North, Stormlands, Vale, and Riverlands. Renly can say what he wants, but his bid for kingship helped tear that alliance apart. Blame Stannis for his part, but Renly was no innocent in this story. 

What? Renly was willing to come to an agreement with Robb, that only leaves the Vale, and it's Littlefinger's fault that it isn't part of the alliance. Renly has nothing to do with that. It's not like Stannis was going to ally with Robb. This seems like a contrived thing to blame Renly for. Even if Renly didn't declare himself king, Robb was never going to back Stannis because Stannis had not told anyone what was going on. Robb couldn't back Stannis. So it is Stannis who tore the alliance apart, firstly by shirking his duty to Robert, secondly by expecting everyone to develop telepathy so they just magically know to back King Stannis.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[sifth]

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Imagine if Renly hadn't died. Whole realm stable and unified to face Daenerys and the Others. Legitimate Baratheon on the Throne. If only.

Does Renly even believe in The Others? We never really are shown Renly saying anything about the Night's Watch. For all of his many flaws, at the very least Stannis knows that The Others are the real enemy and is the only king actively trying to help the Night's Watch.

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

Does Renly even believe in The Others? We never really are shown Renly saying anything about the Night's Watch. For all of his many flaws, at the very least Stannis knows that The Others are the real enemy and is the only king actively trying to help the Night's Watch.

Stannis doesn't 'know' about the Others, he's never seen one. He believes in them. Yes, he's trying to help the Watch, because there was nothing else he could do at that point. It's not like he went there first, he goes as a last resort after he got most of his troops killed. And as soon as he has enough men to try and make a bid for the Throne again, he leaves the Wall.

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

We never really are shown Renly saying anything about the Night's Watch.

So? When does it ever come up in conversation? When is Renly meant to randomly make a comment about this? No one ever mentions it near him. Why would he ever have reason to talk about it? Robb doesn't talk about the Watch, does this mean he doesn't care?

If Renly found out about the Others, of course he'd do something about it. Even Tywin would because it is an existential threat to everyone in the Kingdom, if they don't deal with it there won't be a kingdom left.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Alester Florent]

49 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Whole realm stable and unified to face Daenerys and the Others.

But surely it's Bran the Darkheart, Traitor Jon and Rickon the Cannibal who will lead the Others? What are you suggesting?!

Edited September 10, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

But surely it's Bran the Darkheart, Traitor Jon and Rickon the Cannibal who will lead the Others? What are you suggesting?!

Robb is alive in this scenario (if Renly lives then I doubt Walder decides to back Tywin, who is in a much weaker position) so Bran and Rickon would proably be reunited with him rather than going North.

Sorry, I mean that, of course, the savage Starks cannot be trusted, and would probably try to backstab Renly as well. Arya the Psycho cannot wait to burn down King's Landing after all.

[sifth]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis doesn't 'know' about the Others, he's never seen one. He believes in them. Yes, he's trying to help the Watch, because there was nothing else he could do at that point. It's not like he went there first, he goes as a last resort after he got most of his troops killed. And as soon as he has enough men to try and make a bid for the Throne again, he leaves the Wall.

I mean you're not wrong, but we never once see Renly or any of the other kings addressing the real threat of The Others. Stannis is only attacking Balton, because it's stupid to leave one enemy in front of you and another behind and when compared to The Others, the Baltons are the weak enemy. I doubt Renly would have faced or even believed in The Others until they were passed the Wall, in which case it's basically too late to stop them; assuming the books don't have some BS plot device like killing the leader kills all of them, lol

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, sifth said:

but we never once see Renly or any of the other kings addressing the real threat of The Others

I think Renly dies before he receives the Letter from the Watch. Stannis doesn't seem to get the letter until after the Blackwater, and Renly dies some weeks/months before that.

1 minute ago, sifth said:

I doubt Renly would have faced or even believed in The Others until they were passed the Wall, in which case it's basically too late to stop them

Why? If Renly finds out, there is no reason for him not to try and do something, for the reasons I explained before. Especially since in this scenario, it would likely be Robb finding out from Jon, and Robb would then contact Renly.

[Alester Florent]

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean you're not wrong, but we never once see Renly or any of the other kings addressing the real threat of The Others. Stannis is only attacking Balton, because it's stupid to leave one enemy in front of you and another behind and when compared to The Others, the Baltons are the weak enemy. I doubt Renly would have faced or even believed in The Others until they were passed the Wall, in which case it's basically too late to stop them; assuming the books don't have some BS plot device like killing the leader kills all of them, lol

The "real threat" of the Others is still, as of the end of ADwD, a hypothetical future threat rather than an immediate one. Other than the incident with the wights at Castle Black, the Others and their servants have yet to cross or even to attack the Wall directly. At the time of Renly's death, even the Night's Watch was unsure about the extent of the threat the Others posed; it was only after the massacre at the Fist that they realised exactly what they were dealing with. Even Mormont, who took the threat seriously, thought that the Great Ranging, comprising a couple of hundred men, would be sufficient at least to investigate and return in one piece.

I don't think it's fair to blame Renly for not taking sufficiently seriously an issue which at all relevant times he was barely aware of, in no way affected him and wasn't properly understood even by those who were knowledgeable and in the direct line of fire.

Besides which, in a scenario where Renly wins the WotFK and makes peace with Robb (probable, I think, if Renly did take King's Landing), then Robb would be available to fill the Stannis role during the wildling attack on Castle Black, and provide better support to the Watch thereafter than Stannis is capable of or the Boltons are either able or willing to do.

Renly winning doesn't solve everything, obviously, but he was by far the most promising candidate to win the war quickly and restore peace to the realm. Which is of course why, narratively, he had to die.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Alester Florent

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

The "real threat" of the Others is still, as of the end of ADwD, a hypothetical future threat rather than an immediate one. Other than the incident with the wights at Castle Black, the Others and their servants have yet to cross or even to attack the Wall directly. At the time of Renly's death, even the Night's Watch was unsure about the extent of the threat the Others posed; it was only after the massacre at the Fist that they realised exactly what they were dealing with. Even Mormont, who took the threat seriously, thought that the Great Ranging, comprising a couple of hundred men, would be sufficient at least to investigate and return in one piece.

I don't think it's fair to blame Renly for not taking sufficiently seriously an issue which at all relevant times he was barely aware of, in no way affected him and wasn't properly understood even by those who were knowledgeable and in the direct line of fire.

Besides which, in a scenario where Renly wins the WotFK and makes peace with Robb (probable, I think, if Renly did take King's Landing), then Robb would be available to fill the Stannis role during the wildling attack on Castle Black, and provide better support to the Watch thereafter than Stannis is capable of or the Boltons are either able or willing to do.

Renly winning doesn't solve everything, obviously, but he was by far the most promising candidate to win the war quickly and restore peace to the realm. Which is of course why, narratively, he had to die.

Robb would still have to deal with the Iron Born, before he could help The Watch. Possibly Balton and the Freys as well, if they still choose to rebel, after Robb got married.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think Renly dies before he receives the Letter from the Watch. Stannis doesn't seem to get the letter until after the Blackwater, and Renly dies some weeks/months before that.

Why? If Renly finds out, there is no reason for him not to try and do something, for the reasons I explained before. Especially since in this scenario, it would likely be Robb finding out from Jon, and Robb would then contact Renly.

Stannis only gets the letter, when Davos reads to him. Maester Pylos choose to never give the letter to Stannis. Once Davos gives Stannis the letter, he leave at once.

We're told the Night's Watch sent letters to all 5 kings and only one of those five choose to help them and it wasn't Renly.

Edited September 10, 2023 by sifth

[Alester Florent]

I doubt the Boltons and Freys would have turned on Robb in a scenario where Renly took KL and Robb made peace with Renly. Walder and Roose wouldn't have moved without assurances from Tywin that he'd back them and protect them from the consequences: Renly wouldn't have done this and would most likely have encouraged retribution against the Boltons and Freys.

I think the Ironborn would be relatively easily mopped up if Robb were able to concentrate the full force of the North on it. Moat Cailin is the most difficult nut to crack, but Balon wouldn't have attacked in the first place had Robb not been in the south, and if Robb can get back past Moat Cailin (as he probably can, given his plan) then he can mop up the remaining Ironborn holdings in the north in fairly short order. Especially once Balon is dead (as would happen anyway) and the captains return to Pyke to elect a new king: once this happens, even Stannis and the rump northern armies are able to retake Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin without much difficulty.

 

[Alester Florent]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

We're told the Night's Watch sent letters to all 5 kings

But they can't have done, because there were never five kings at the same time. Renly died before Balon was crowned.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

But they can't have done, because there were never five kings at the same time. Renly died before Balon was crowned.

They could have sent a letter to Balon after he was crowned as well. It's never said they sent all of the letters at the same time.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

We're told the Night's Watch sent letters to all 5 kings and only one of those five choose to help them and it wasn't Renly.

Renly died before he could do much at all. We don't even know that he got the letter before he died. Stannis chose to help when it was basically the only option left for him.