Renly deserved better

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

I believe the Stormlands sided almost universally with Renly. The only Stormlands house we know sided with Stannis in the first instance was Seaworth. A few Stormlords later received Davos to hear what he had to say, but we know of none who sided with Stannis while Renly was alive (and given how Davos regrets the difficulty he had in even meeting lords, he would doubtless say if any had). It is possible that some of them stay home and don't answer Renly's call (most notably, the Dondarrions, since Beric is the head of their house) but we don't know of any for certain.

After Renly's death, almost all the Stormlords then go over to Stannis. It's possible that the Penroses and Tarths don't, but we only know about Brienne and Cortnay for certain (neither of whom is the head of their house).

Most of the Stormlords desert Stannis in turn at the sight of Renly's ghost and later swear fealty to Joffrey (with prisoners who don't being executed), but a handful remain with Stannis after the Blackwater.

There are a handful of Stormlanders who fight for Joffrey from the outset, though, most notably Balon Swann. Meryn Trant is a Stormlander too, although of course he's Kingsguard.

Yeah, I want to take another look at this now and some of the things said in the wake of Renley's death and the redistribution of his army.  How much of the Stormlander sentiment was pro Renley and how much of it was Never-Stannis  is what I'm curious to see, if it can be seen.

[Alester Florent]

8 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Yeah, I want to take another look at this now and some of the things said in the wake of Renley's death and the redistribution of his army.  How much of the Stormlander sentiment was pro Renley and how much of it was Never-Stannis  is what I'm curious to see, if it can be seen.

I don't think there was a strong Never-Stannis impulse in the Stormlands. In the Reach, certainly.

The loyalty of the Stormlords seems to have gone, mostly, Renly -> Stannis -> Renly -> oh shit -> well I guess we're stuck with Joffrey

A handful of them stuck with Stannis after the Blackwater. Some of them seem to have already converted to R'hlorr by this time. It's not clear whether they didn't see Renly's ghost, weren't taken in by it, or what.

Renly's ghost may not have won the Blackwater for Tywin. But it was undoubtedly a masterstroke at minimising casualties and wiping out Stannis's army in one fell swoop: without it, who knows how long the Stormlords would have fought on for, and how many might have escaped and regrouped in Stannis's name. Once they'd surrendered and forced to swear to Joff, that eliminated them as a threat.

The Stormlords do seem to be loyal to whoever they think their rightful lord is at the time, as a rule (albeit I suspect the same goes for most of the kingdoms; they've just had more opportunities to switch allegiance than most). It'll be interesting to see what role they have to play in the next phase of the wars.

[Craving Peaches]

24 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

He never made that argument, I don't think he believed it. If his campaign had been based upon the fact that the legitimate heir was a demon worshipper and the Lannister kids were bastards and he was reluctantly stepping into the void that history had created for him then I would have accepted it. It's a good argument. He never said it and it was right there in front of him. What's the conclusion other than he didn't believe it himself? 

Not saying he believed it at that time, but it is something he could have used if he needed to justify his rule. I'm not sure how much of Stannis sept burning was known to people outside Dragonstone, but if Renly found out, I would expect him to use it for PR. The incest wasn't right in front of him because he saw no proof of it. All Renly hears of the idea is Stannis claiming it, which is very convenient as it makes him King, and when Renly asks for proof, Stannis is unable to offer any.

[Jaenara Belarys]

@Craving Peaches, did you make your sibling make an account? 

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Craving Peaches, did you make your sibling make an account? 

They're too young 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

They're too young 

I should have a talk with him about how awesome the Targaryens are and that the Baratheons are usurpers and villains. 

[Guess who's back]

On 9/10/2023 at 5:05 PM, James Steller said:

Even CravingPeaches isn’t this sycophantic towards Renly. 

But realistically what else Renly could have done? His game was flawless and also honorable as opposed to that coward Stannis who attacks at night and during a parley.

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, Guess who's back said:

But realistically what else Renly could have done? His game was flawless and also honorable as opposed to that coward Stannis who attacks at night and during a parley.

It is good to see someone else knows the truth about Stannis.

[Guess who's back]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is good to see someone else knows the truth about Stannis.

Somehow everyone seems to see Stannis through those same rose colored glasses that Davos is wearing. I wonder if it would be any different if we were getting Brienne or any other pro-Renly POV chapters in Clash. 

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Guess who's back said:

Somehow everyone seems to see Stannis through those same rose colored glasses that Davos is wearing. I wonder if it would be any different if we were getting Brienne or any other pro-Renly POV chapters in Clash. 

I agree. Everyone also seems to take Stannis at his word for absolutely everything, even though we are shown he is bitter etc. and fallible just like everyone else.

[Lee-Sensei]

I don't think either were being particularly honorable. Assassinating your brother with black magic is obviously not, but the honorable thing to do for Renly would have been to support Stannis if he believed that Cersei's kids were bastards.

[Alester Florent]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:20 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

I don't think either were being particularly honorable. Assassinating your brother with black magic is obviously not, but the honorable thing to do for Renly would have been to support Stannis if he believed that Cersei's kids were bastards.

Renly didn't believe they were badtards  so far as we know. Rather  he thought his life was in danger from the new regime and he probably also thought Joff was unfit to rule. His first hope was to assist Ned in seizing control of the government, but that failed thanks to Ned's lack of cooperation. We can of course debate the viability of theoretical alternatives to the course of action he took.

[Lee-Sensei]

32 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Renly didn't believe they were badtards  so far as we know. Rather  he thought his life was in danger from the new regime and he probably also thought Joff was unfit to rule. His first hope was to assist Ned in seizing control of the government, but that failed thanks to Ned's lack of cooperation. We can of course debate the viability of theoretical alternatives to the course of action he took.

I don't think he knew originally, but I imagine that he'd have come to the same conclusion after getting Stannis' letter. Brienne put it together easily enough when she saw Gendry and Edric was living at Storms End. If he didn't believe the incest story, the honourable course of action would have been to support Cersei's kids... even if he wanted to remove Cersei still.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If he didn't believe the incest story, the honourable course of action would have been to support Cersei's kids... even if he wanted to remove Cersei still.

He kind of tries this though, but Ned rejects the plan. At which point it is sensible for him to flee.

[Lee-Sensei]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He kind of tries this though, but Ned rejects the plan. At which point it is sensible for him to flee.

I know that he tried that at first. Crowning himself wasn't his first option. A match with Joffrey or Tommen and Margaery could work. Renly could step in as their "uncle" and rule in their name once he'd gotten rid of the Lannisters. I don't think this was likely though. I do think that Renly believed Stannis' letter. Once the secret's out, it doesn't take long for people to come to that conclusion as we've seen.

[Ran]

26 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I do think that Renly believed Stannis' letter. Once the secret's out, it doesn't take long for people to come to that conclusion as we've seen.

I think Renly actually didn't believe it, as such -- he thought it was just a very clever thing to say because it seemed plausible. When Catelyn is talking to him about the attempt on Bran's life, he genuinely seems to be fitting that in as an independent corroboration to Stannis's claim, and that's the first time he starts to believe it.

It's worth saying that Brienne may well have seen Edric Storm, or certainly heard of what he looked like, as well at some point, so seeing Gendry too would make it seem more than just coincidence that these bastards of Robert came out looking like him. Renly just had the evidence of Edric, who even Stannis admits is proof "of a sort", rather than incontrivertable proof.

[Lee-Sensei]

58 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think Renly actually didn't believe it, as such -- he thought it was just a very clever thing to say because it seemed plausible. When Catelyn is talking to him about the attempt on Bran's life, he genuinely seems to be fitting that in as an independent corroboration to Stannis's claim, and that's the first time he starts to believe it.

It's worth saying that Brienne may well have seen Edric Storm, or certainly heard of what he looked like, as well at some point, so seeing Gendry too would make it seem more than just coincidence that these bastards of Robert came out looking like him. Renly just had the evidence of Edric, who even Stannis admits is proof "of a sort", rather than incontrivertable proof.

I guess, but Renly's seen Shireen too. I don't view Renly as a dumb guy personally. So I just find it hard to believe that he wouldn't put the pieces together. Catelyn does. So does Brienne. It's not like he had a high opinion of Cersei's character.

[Alester Florent]

36 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I guess, but Renly's seen Shireen too. I don't view Renly as a dumb guy personally. So I just find it hard to believe that he wouldn't put the pieces together. Catelyn does. So does Brienne. It's not like he had a high opinion of Cersei's character.

I think we the readers tend to assume it's easier to figure out than it actually is for the characters, because we can see more of the picture and we're led by the hand through Ned's investigation. 

I don't really blame characters for not getting it, or not getting it quickly.

[Lee-Sensei]

28 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think we the readers tend to assume it's easier to figure out than it actually is for the characters, because we can see more of the picture and we're led by the hand through Ned's investigation. 

I don't really blame characters for not getting it, or not getting it quickly.

I mean... we see Brienne put it together quickly enough and she's not exactly a schemer. Renly knows Cersei, he's seen Baratheon children, he's seen Cersei's kids, he's heard the rumors and he even knows many of the things that happened with the Starks in AGOT.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Lee-Sensei said:

I mean... we see Brienne put it together quickly enough and she's not exactly a schemer

I thought Brienne realised Gendry was Robert's rather than connecting it to the incest?