Wealth of the Lords of Westeros: The North

[Alden Rothack]

How wealthy would northern lords such as the Boltons, Dustins, Ryswells and Manderlys actually be

[Aebram]

I'm afraid that your question is too vague to elicit a clear answer. We have enough trouble around here deciding the value of a single coin, much less the net worth of a high lord.

We know that some of these lords live in big  castles, and they rule over populations large enough that they can summon thousands of men for their armies. From Jorah Mormont's description of his marriage to Lynesse Hightower, it seems clear that the life of a Northern lord is not as luxurious as in the other six kingdoms. Of course, House Mormont is probably less prosperous than others in the North, because of Bear Island's small size and remote location.

At the other end of the scale, Winterfell is large and wealthy enough that it was able to host King Robert and his entourage. The other lords are probably somewhere in between those two.

Here's an interesting video by a reader who has created a detailed description and images of what Winterfell might actually look like. Perhaps that will help us determine its value.

 

[Alden Rothack]

5 hours ago, Aebram said:

I'm afraid that your question is too vague to elicit a clear answer. We have enough trouble around here deciding the value of a single coin, much less the net worth of a high lord.

We know that some of these lords live in big  castles, and they rule over populations large enough that they can summon thousands of men for their armies. From Jorah Mormont's description of his marriage to Lynesse Hightower, it seems clear that the life of a Northern lord is not as luxurious as in the other six kingdoms. Of course, House Mormont is probably less prosperous than others in the North, because of Bear Island's small size and remote location.

At the other end of the scale, Winterfell is large and wealthy enough that it was able to host King Robert and his entourage. The other lords are probably somewhere in between those two.

Here's an interesting video by a reader who has created a detailed description and images of what Winterfell might actually look like. Perhaps that will help us determine its value.

 

(I have my own thoughts on how much a gold dragon is worth as you may or may not know)

I specifically didn't name the mormonts because bear island is small and remote, I agree that they are likely the poorest of the significant lords sworn to winterfell, my interest is in the lords named in my post

(PS I've seen that video before and I like it quite a bit)

[Alester Florent]

There is of course a difference between "wealth" and "money" and this distinction is particularly apparent in "feudal"-ish systems like in Westeros. Much of the wealth that great lords in Westeros possess is in the form of human capital or tithes from landholders that are paid in kind rather than in cash. 

The result of this may be that lords who are in real terms very wealthy and powerful (can command hundreds or thousands of men, host the king and his entire entourage) might not necessarily have that high a cash income or that much cash on hand.

Families which control major trading ports (or the like) will probably have more cash money than lords who have great estates inland, but may have to spend more of that money to maintain the same standard of living. Mind you, the idea of a family like the Manderlys or Hightowers controlling major cities effectively unilaterally and being able to draw off the relevant income  is in itself somewhat unrealistic - GRRM's grasp on medieval economics is somewhat shaky at times.

But this may be the kind of problem that afflicted Jorah. The Mormonts probably have enough land and resources to maintain themselves comfortably, not to the standard of the Starks or Boltons of course but to the level expected of lords. But his wife turns up and wants things which cost money, which the Mormont holdings aren't set up to provide. So Jorah has to resort to desperate moneymaking schemes using the resources at his disposal in order to generate the money his wife wants. 

 

[Alden Rothack]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

There is of course a difference between "wealth" and "money" and this distinction is particularly apparent in "feudal"-ish systems like in Westeros. Much of the wealth that great lords in Westeros possess is in the form of human capital or tithes from landholders that are paid in kind rather than in cash. 

The result of this may be that lords who are in real terms very wealthy and powerful (can command hundreds or thousands of men, host the king and his entire entourage) might not necessarily have that high a cash income or that much cash on hand.

Families which control major trading ports (or the like) will probably have more cash money than lords who have great estates inland, but may have to spend more of that money to maintain the same standard of living. Mind you, the idea of a family like the Manderlys or Hightowers controlling major cities effectively unilaterally and being able to draw off the relevant income  is in itself somewhat unrealistic - GRRM's grasp on medieval economics is somewhat shaky at times.

But this may be the kind of problem that afflicted Jorah. The Mormonts probably have enough land and resources to maintain themselves comfortably, not to the standard of the Starks or Boltons of course but to the level expected of lords. But his wife turns up and wants things which cost money, which the Mormont holdings aren't set up to provide. So Jorah has to resort to desperate moneymaking schemes using the resources at his disposal in order to generate the money his wife wants. 

 

Yes, the Mormants very much seem to have the means to do what is expected from them such as arm, armour and pay some thousand men and ferry them over to the mainland so they certainly aren't poor but they don't seem to have a lot of gold either, the only Northern lords who have a lot of gold are likely Stark, Ryswell and Manderly and even they wouldn't be close to as rich as the Hightowers.

Personally I think GRRM erred on making Lynesse someone who came from money, Jorah going broke paying for her excesses makes a lot more sense if she goes wild because shes marrying up not way way down.

Honestly the weirdest thing about the Jorah situation is that selling poachers was worth doing it, if the poachers were worth anything to anybody they wouldn't be poaching.

[Lee-Sensei]

Almost all Lords are probably decently wealthy. Even in the Iron Islands. People have this conception that the Northern Lords are poor, but I don't think that's reall the case. Maybe they are compared to the Lords of the Westerlands and the Reach. Possibly the Riverlands and the Vale too, but the North is rich. It's hard to say how much, but I imagine that Wyman Manderly is the richest of them. Probably followed by the Starks. Jorah wasn't poor as I see it. He was just poor compared to the Hightowers. House Hightower has wealth almost on the level of the Lannisters, so that's not really a mark against him.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Alden Rothack]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Almost all Lords are probably decently wealthy. Even in the Iron Islands. People have this conception that the Northern Lords are poor, but I don't think that's reall the case. Maybe they are compared to the Lords of the Westerlands and the Reach. Possibly the Riverlands and the Vale too, but the North is rich. It's hard to say how much, but I imagine that Wyman Manderly is the richest of them. Probably followed by the Starks. Jorah wasn't poor as I see it. He was just poor compared to the Hightowers. House Hightower has wealth almost on the level of the Lannisters, so that's not really a mark against him.

Agreed, all lords even the ironborn and your osgrey or westerling level ones are objectively rich, its difficult to get an exact read on how rich but conservatively hundreds of thousands of pounds by relative income or buying power.

Manderly is a hundred times that easily

the Hightowers have roman empire levels of money

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:40 AM, Alden Rothack said:

How wealthy would northern lords such as the Boltons, Dustins, Ryswells and Manderlys actually be

Manderly is wealthy by the standards of the North.  Boltons, Dustins, Ryswells, and Starks are much less so than their Southern counterparts.  The Starks would be poor compared to the Tyrells.

[Alden Rothack]

3 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Manderly is wealthy by the standards of the North.  Boltons, Dustins, Ryswells, and Starks are much less so than their Southern counterparts.  The Starks would be poor compared to the Tyrells.

Nearly everyone is poor compared to the Tyrells

Manderly, Ryswell and Stark at least will be wealthier than most southron lords based on the lands and men they have

[astarkchoice]

They are no worse or better than other lords. The lands they have are sparse but theres soo much of it  to make up for that. Plentiful wood , game , expensive furs and fishing.

They have a major harbour next to one of the 2 largest trading centres on planetos (IB and bravos) and arent too far from the vale , other free cities and KL  ,vast vast coastlines for fish (one the few meats that salted or in salty water barrels will stay good for a long time over those long winters)  and manderly suggested theres some.silver mines too.

 

As for individual house stewards + Maesters will handle the finances comming in

Starks: lords of the north will have sizeable lands ,tribute from direct vassals and some as lord of the north. Wintertown will provide some revenue (esp innwinter) and their glass houses mean they dont need to buy luxury foodstuffs like fruits etc  in winter. The heated  steam under the castle means unlike most north houses they prob save a fortune in the long long winters.

Manderys :very rich due to their harbour, started out as a reach house that clearly threatenen the tryells enough to make them amost go to war so probably fled with significant fortune too!!

 

Dustins: barrowtown and the road comming north as 1st past the neck probably helps trade. Like the ryswells and flints of that area theres also probably good stoney shore fish cash comming in.

Boltons: strong enough to contest the north with the starks for generations, probably significant lands! The dreadforst  karhold, hornwood and evennlast hearth all have river connections to sea so many have some low level trade  there with ships comming and leaving white harbour!

Mormonts: as jorah described a poor house.

Now there is some economic decline though! The 2nd gift grabted tonthe watch seems.to have come right out of the starks pockets/lands.   The decline of the nigjts watch as a serious deterrent to wildlings will have hurt not just the gift but all of the far north lands near the wall!  The loss of the western fleet by brandon the  builder has probably cost a lot in trade as well as people being conformtable to settle without being raided by ironborn or even fish near them so the coast has probably slowly declined.

Moat catlin and the tower beside winterfell need urgent work which ned was putting off til after winter but cost was probably a factor too!!!.

Edited October 6, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Alden Rothack]

11 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

The lands they have are sparse but theres soo much of it  to make up for that.

So so true

the north is vast and unlike Dorne people like in 9/10th of it

[astarkchoice]

6 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

So so true

the north is vast and unlike Dorne people like in 9/10th of it

And theres an easy solution to boost it.

The vast forrrest beyond the wall ! the wood could be sold to bravos! They would send the lumberjacks , ship it and hell could even pay for a sellsword company to patrol as security for the workers!

The wood would be sold en masse cheap with some funds going to the small nights watch but the rest being paid for up front by bravos building say half a dozen  large  warships to patrol the west coast and maybe toss in a few fishing boats and supply carrying cogs ! Its a good start to reboost the west coast with an anti ironborn fleet to keep the coastline safe and it cuts the forrest way back from the wall making spotting wildlings easy thus massively boosting areas behind it like the 2 gifts,last hearth and karhold as people can start to resettle there safely!!

[Alden Rothack]

35 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

And theres an easy solution to boost it.

The vast forrrest beyond the wall ! the wood could be sold to bravos! They would send the lumberjacks , ship it and hell could even pay for a sellsword company to patrol as security for the workers!

The wood would be sold en masse cheap with some funds going to the small nights watch but the rest being paid for up front by bravos building say half a dozen  large  warships to patrol the west coast and maybe toss in a few fishing boats and supply carrying cogs ! Its a good start to reboost the west coast with an anti ironborn fleet to keep the coastline safe and it cuts the forrest way back from the wall making spotting wildlings easy thus massively boosting areas behind it like the 2 gifts,last hearth and karhold as people can start to resettle there safely!!

I do like ideas to strengthen the north

[astarkchoice]

14 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I do like ideas to strengthen the north

Well ya have to...cause winter IS comming

[Alden Rothack]

5 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Well ya have to...cause winter IS comming

it always is

[astarkchoice]

Side ideas

 

While the  lack of navy and fall of the nights watch is probably slowly weakening the north economicaly for lost trade and less settling due to raids its probably true that no other region gets.hit as hard by the  long winters ....thus the pre books unusualy long summer has probably benefited them more than anywhere else! 

 

Lf has hiddena ot of the crowns gold as we know in  investments,.if any area is underdeveloped and ripe.for large returns for small cash injections its probably there! Thus lf has probably been both terrible and fantastic for the north!!!

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

Lf has hiddena ot of the crowns gold as we know in  investments,.if any area is underdeveloped and ripe.for large returns for small cash injections its probably there! Thus lf has probably been both terrible and fantastic for the north!!!

fortunately theres no evidence theres been any investing in the north , though if the starks got hold of his gold they could use it well

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

fortunately theres no evidence theres been any investing in the north , though if the starks got hold of his gold they could use it well

Well there wouldnt be much direct evidence maybe just little.things

Old Farmer on rooses land: im glad i gotta loan to pay that dowry on my new  young wife  !  havent told lord bolton about the wedding  yet but il get round to it..whats the worst that can happen?

[Alden Rothack]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Well there wouldnt be much direct evidence maybe just little.things

Old Farmer on rooses land: im glad i gotta loan to pay that dowry on my new  young wife  !  havent told lord bolton about the wedding  yet but il get round to it..whats the worst that can happen?

you do know that the dowry is paid by the father of the bride?

[astarkchoice]

46 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

you do know that the dowry is paid by the father of the bride?

Lol yeah