Bastards, Distanced Relatives, and Non-genetically Related Heirs

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I was thinking about the theory that Sweetrobin is Petyr's child, and also that ...there is evidence for said theory. Then, I thought about if Alyn Velaryon. Next, I thought about the Plumm who was actually probably fathered by a Targaryen. Finally, I thought about how Harry the Heir, despite being born as a Hardying, can be a Arryn.  I then decided the reason why so many of the ruling houses in Westeros have ridiculously long histories is that they probably aren't actually a continuous line at all. 

In just our short history that we know of, there are countless examples of questionable paternity, heirs that were once bastards or were so far down the line of succession to barely be associated with the main house (before inheriting), and probably even random children who aren't actually who they are claimed to be (think (f)Aegon or (f)Arya). I think it is likely literally every major house had one of these happen at some point, and maybe even a plethora of times. So essentially..the unbroken lines they claim to be are actually very, very broken lines which might not even have a drop of blood of the original line. 

What do you guys think? Potentially correct, or am I overthinking this? 

[SaffronLady]

I think you are potentially correct, but this makes analysis of "the transfer of magic" @Hippocras is so fond of rather difficult if we are guessing for bastards amongst the already-incomplete family trees.

[Otatop1000]

Perfect example: Bael the Bard and the Blue Rose.  Later the “Lord of Winterfell” slew his unbeknownst father.  Be good to know if that bastard of winterfell came to an untimely or gruesome end, because of the curse of Kinslaying.

[Hippocras]

On 10/21/2023 at 7:23 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I was thinking about the theory that Sweetrobin is Petyr's child, and also that ...there is evidence for said theory. Then, I thought about if Alyn Velaryon. Next, I thought about the Plumm who was actually probably fathered by a Targaryen. Finally, I thought about how Harry the Heir, despite being born as a Hardying, can be a Arryn.  I then decided the reason why so many of the ruling houses in Westeros have ridiculously long histories is that they probably aren't actually a continuous line at all. 

In just our short history that we know of, there are countless examples of questionable paternity, heirs that were once bastards or were so far down the line of succession to barely be associated with the main house (before inheriting), and probably even random children who aren't actually who they are claimed to be (think (f)Aegon or (f)Arya). I think it is likely literally every major house had one of these happen at some point, and maybe even a plethora of times. So essentially..the unbroken lines they claim to be are actually very, very broken lines which might not even have a drop of blood of the original line. 

What do you guys think? Potentially correct, or am I overthinking this? 

The lines are likely choppy, I would actually tend to agree, but without a drop of the original is highly unlikely.

 

On 10/21/2023 at 8:52 PM, SaffronLady said:

I think you are potentially correct, but this makes analysis of "the transfer of magic" @Hippocras is so fond of rather difficult if we are guessing for bastards amongst the already-incomplete family trees.

My main theme has a lot to do with the fact that bloodlines and names are not the same thing at all. I am frustrated generally by how often fans confound the two, which effectively is blind to the fact that women are fully as much a part of passing on a bloodline as men are, and that bastardy is a political concept which has nothing to do with the strength of one's inheritance. So bastards pass on bloodlines, as do women.

The chopped up bloodlines of the various families are almost certainly broken as completely as proposed above if you only count male heredity. But my theme is rather different, so even if the male line gets broken, the long histories make it nearly certain that the female and bastard lines are in fact woven back in.

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

My main theme has a lot to do with the fact that bloodlines and names are not the same thing at all. I am frustrated generally by how often fans confound the two, which effectively is blind to the fact that women are fully as much a part of passing on a bloodline as men are

Well unless "bloodline" actually means Y-chromosome.

[Hippocras]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Well unless "bloodline" actually means Y-chromosome.

If it did, there would be no brother-sister marriage in this series.

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Well unless "bloodline" actually means Y-chromosome.

I dunno, if dragonriding and skinchanging are based on the same basic magic, then bloodline actually looks like the X-chromosome.

[aeverett]

On 10/21/2023 at 3:52 PM, Otatop1000 said:

Perfect example: Bael the Bard and the Blue Rose.  Later the “Lord of Winterfell” slew his unbeknownst father.  Be good to know if that bastard of winterfell came to an untimely or gruesome end, because of the curse of Kinslaying.

Actually Ygritte tells us in the Bael the Bard story that one of his vassals skinned him alive.  I'm guessing a Bolton.   

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/23/2023 at 5:25 PM, Hippocras said:

My main theme has a lot to do with the fact that bloodlines and names are not the same thing at all. I am frustrated generally by how often fans confound the two, which effectively is blind to the fact that women are fully as much a part of passing on a bloodline as men are, and that bastardy is a political concept which has nothing to do with the strength of one's inheritance. So bastards pass on bloodlines, as do women.

 

First, your points are all honestly spot on. I agree with them. However.....I still think it is possible that some of the houses are barely related to the original rulers. How easily these houses have come close to extinction in our modern time line just seems to point that way. 

They do. Let's give example right now : Arya Stark is not actually Arya Stark. If they were to claim the son of Ramsay and "Arya" was a Stark (it won't happen, but ..it could in a different time line), then that child would have...very little blood in relation to the Starks. Now granted, of course, ...everyone is kind of related to everyone (humans have very little variation in our genes compared to most animals, we are all pretty closely related); but specifically related to say Grandfather Stark or Grandmother Lannister might be loose at best. In fact, I'd say female lines are MORE, and not less, likely to be faked (look how little care they have for just grabbing some random girl and calling her Arya). Bastardy passes on bloodlines IF the bastards are actually the supposed lord's children, but...that can be faked. Let's say a woman had sex with several men, one of which was the lord. She then claims the kid is the lords...you are telling me that is not happening? Cause I think it is. 

Honestly, the best example of all this is the Baratheons. What actually are the Baratheons? Orys Baratheon was essentially a Targaryen right? Why weren't any of the Baratheon's dragon riders? Did none ever try? Why did purple hair or silver hair never pop up in the Baratheon line? Did the Durrandon's have some weird fantasy dominant gene? (which explains the black hair..although wouldn't...like half the houses have black hair by now if their genes were actually that dominant?) 

Honestly, the genetics make no sense though, lol. I feel like the Lannisters all being blonde and having green eyes, or the Bartheons all having black hair and blue eyes, or the Targaryen's amount of purple eyes and silver hair ...just is kind of far-fetched. That isn't really how genetics work in our world, and other than saying "magic", it is kind of hard to follow how it would even work. 

[Alester Florent]

7 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, the best example of all this is the Baratheons. What actually are the Baratheons? Orys Baratheon was essentially a Targaryen right? Why weren't any of the Baratheon's dragon riders? Did none ever try? Why did purple hair or silver hair never pop up in the Baratheon line? Did the Durrandon's have some weird fantasy dominant gene? (which explains the black hair..although wouldn't...like half the houses have black hair by now if their genes were actually that dominant?)

I have convinced myself of my own theory that Orys was Aegon's half-brother on his mother's side, and that his father was actually Argilac Durrandon, thereby explaining (among other things) why the Baratheons looked like the Durrandons before they even intermarried.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

I have convinced myself of my own theory that Orys was Aegon's half-brother on his mother's side, and that his father was actually Argilac Durrandon, thereby explaining (among other things) why the Baratheons looked like the Durrandons before they even intermarried.

The wiki says Aerion Targaryen was his father (not that the wiki is always correct). Hmm, I notice though that Argilic's wife and Ory's mother are unknown. Maybe she was a Durrandon (a cousin of the main line or something)? Or fuck it, he just is a random bastard of a tavern bartender who had black hair and blue eyes and the most dominant genes in the history of humankind. 

[SaffronLady]

44 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Or fuck it, he just is a random bastard of a tavern bartender who had black hair and blue eyes and the most dominant genes in the history of humankind. 

The option I chose to roll with.

45 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Argilic's wife unknown

Though it's obviously not canon, I like the ck2 mod's decision to make Argilac's wife a Tarth.

[Hippocras]

@Lord of Raventree Hall I think that while it is possible that a small handful of families have been cut off in the way you describe, it is not extensive, and not in the families that are aware that their magic depends on lineage. In other words there are some families, such as Targaryen, Blackwood, Stark, that have taken pains to make sure that the reweaving I described happens if there is even the slightest doubt.

In the Bael the Bard story, the Stark line passed via the female, and her son's line no doubt merged with an older Stark strain maintained within another Northern House. In later generations of Starks, we see several examples of offshoot branches being re-integrated.

We get a hint from Jamie's chapter at Raventree that Lord Blackwood is curiously attached to his daughter, not minding if his son is a hostage but unwilling to give up his only girl. This suggests they are aware of matrilinear elements of their family traits and actively maintain them while hiding it within a patrilineal system.

As for the Targaryens, I strongly suspect that key ones descend from Elaena, Daena and Rhaena, while the main Royal branch, which descended from Larra Rogare, became corrupted. This female line of dragon blood therefore hid under different names for several generations.

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

We get a hint from Jamie's chapter at Raventree that Lord Blackwood is curiously attached to his daughter, not minding if his son is a hostage but unwilling to give up his only girl. This suggests they are aware of matrilinear elements of their family traits and actively maintain them while hiding it within a patrilineal system.

Or..he just loved his daughter. I think...he just loved his daughter. And since I am in fact that Lord, I should know (okay, jk on the last part). I don't think it suggests anything. You might be reading too much into these things.

9 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

As for the Targaryens, I strongly suspect that key ones descend from Elaena, Daena and Rhaena, while the main Royal branch, which descended from Larra Rogare, became corrupted. This female line of dragon blood therefore hid under different names for several generations.

While the Targaryens, unlike the Blackwoods, actually do seem to care about blood.....I don't believe that GRRM is writing a book where blood is "corrupted". If there is corruption, it is just in that blood magic is bad, not in that some inferior blood line did something bad to the Targaryens. Also...this would mean Daenerys being a dragonrider would I guess make no sense, as she is of Larra Rogare's line. Also, Jon Snow would be of Larra Rogare's line. The only character's who (might) be of Elaena, Daena, and Rhaena's line...is (f)Aegon (and maybe Varys). Also, if Elaena's bloodline is...somehow a good line, it means...Brown Ben Plumm is going to be a dragonrider and play an important part in this book, lol. Again, I think you are putting meaning into bloodlines that GRRM is just not. He does care about these lines, but...from a historical standpoint, not a biological one. Varys might care about bloodlines a lot, but that isn't because (f)Aegon has special magic blood (I doubt Aegon will even survive to the final book), but because Varys is probably a Blackfyre. 

17 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

 

In other words there are some families, such as Targaryen, Blackwood, Stark, that have taken pains to make sure that the reweaving I described happens if there is even the slightest doubt.

Have they? Do we see suggestion that Eddard has any idea about wharging? Did he seem overly concerned with keeping the Stark bloodline pure? Although there are examples of cousins marrying in stuff in all the main houses...I don't get the feeling that there is a ton of awareness about the wharging stuff. As well, how does that work with Catelyn? Does she have ancient First Men blood secretly? Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but I just don't think GRRM is suggesting (other than the Targaryens) that the other houses are thinking about blood magic being passed down. Targaryens were...but again, I doubt the reason for the death of Dragons has anything to do with Targaryen blood losing its strength (and everything to do with something the Citadel was doing), as otherwise, Daenerys's whole storyline doesn't even make sense. She is in fact Larra Rogaire's descendent, as well as having Martell blood, and Blackwood blood, etc. 

[Hippocras]

5 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

Time will tell re: the Blackwoods.

 

The Starks are unaware of warging in recent generations, but are aware of the need to maintain their presence at Winterfell, their crypt traditions, a strong pack, and respect for their sword. VS swords were forged with blood magic.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

VS swords were forged with blood magic.

I do think this could be true, however I am not sure anyone alive currently is aware of that. I think the Citadel made a huge effort to essentially make sure everyone forgot this stuff. They care about their swords...because they are really good swords. 

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The wiki says Aerion Targaryen was his father (not that the wiki is always correct). Hmm, I notice though that Argilic's wife and Ory's mother are unknown. Maybe she was a Durrandon (a cousin of the main line or something)? Or fuck it, he just is a random bastard of a tavern bartender who had black hair and blue eyes and the most dominant genes in the history of humankind. 

Yeah, I think that is the wiki making an assumption, because it seems that 99% of relevant bastard half-brothers in the story are - for understandable reasons - on the father's side. But I've been through what I think are all the mentions of Orys and all it says is "rumoured to be Aegon's bastard half-brother", not that he was Aerion's bastard son, so there is room for it to go the other way.

[The hairy bear]

@Alester Florent

In Fire and Blood, Jahaerys considers common knowledge that that Orys is Aeryon Targaryen's bastard:

Quote

“Dragonseeds, they call them,” Jaehaerys said with obvious reluctance. “It is not a thing to boast of, but it has happened, mayhaps more often than we would care to admit. Such children are cherished, though. Orys Baratheon himself was a dragonseed, a bastard brother to our grandsire. Whether he was conceived of a first night I cannot say, but Lord Aerion was his father, that was well-known.”

[SaffronLady]

It is a fairly serious accusation to doubt a highborn lady's fidelity, much more so if said lady was the mother of the founding father of your empire. In real life when noble ladies were known to sire children with different men ... come to think of it I don't know the who, when, where, and why.

[Hippocras]

@Lord of Raventree Hall

 

Getting to this part: corrupted is maybe an oversimplification. It is probably more like cursed, as in something that was actively done to them. The series is full of factions who do not want the dragonlords to thrive. It is all just very secretive, and background so it is hard to pin down. I Also tend to think it is possible that the dragon blood genuinely needs to come from both male and female, even if back a few generations, and so “corrupted” may have to do with being cut off from either line. But that is speculative. All we know for certain is that Targs made every effort to keep their bloodlines “pure” which is the opposite of corruption, and that Larra introduced an Essosi Valyrian line which may be relevant to the curse (or not). Hence the word choice.

As for Dany, she is half Blackwood if following only the male Blackwood  line, and assuming she is in fact who she thinks she is. But since the female line changes names, one generation called this, the next generation called that, I actually consider if quite likely that Betha Blackwood carried one or more of those female lines that had become disconnected. The reason this is more probable than not is that the Blackwoods enjoyed a high degree of favour from the royals for a key period of time during the reigns of Daeron, Aerys and Maekar. Bloodraven was Hand, his mother favoured by Naerys and Daeron II. These are precisely the people who would have had some say in which families Targ cousins and their descendants married. Aegon and Betha were a love match, but that does not mean that Betha’s parentage is insignificant. Going further back I also consider it likely the Blackwoods carry the line of Baela and Alyn. So I do not see Dany as a problem for my theory at all. And of course there remains lemongate etc. and the possibility she is not who she thinks she is. There is of course no doubt at all that she is fully “dragon”.