Family Names used as First Names? Royce.....

[Hippocras]

Wondering if Royce is the only example of this in the series, and what it might mean when it occurs.

Royce Bolton (several)
Royce Coldwater (Coldwater sword to House Royce)
Royce Blackwood
Royce Caron
Royce Baratheon

The family link between Royce Caron and Royce Baratheon is one we can track in an actual family tree. The fact suggests something similar is true elsewhere even when we don't have a tree. It probably suggests a House Royce maternal ancestor when it occurs. If so, I would posit that when Aenys "rewarded" Allard Royce for his service, that reward included a favourable marriage for his heir to a cousin of Aenys. It also of course included bringing Alayne Royce to court.

Allard Royce -> Heir Lord Royce, brother of Alayne wed cousin of Aenys -> Daughters born 38-60  A.C

-> One daughter or granddaughter was mother of Royce Caron, who was born in or before 85
-> One daughter was the mother of Royce Blackwood who was probably of similar age to Daella who was born in 63 A.C

This prestigious lineage would be why they chose to emphasize the Royce connection in the first name of their son, and why the Baratheon family was keen to absorb the line.

But if it is indeed true that the use of the first name suggests a family connection to House Royce, what are we to make of all the Royce Boltons?

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Hippocras

[Loose Bolt]

There are also possible connections between Boltons and House Redfort. After all Boltons were Red Kings, their castles are Redfort and Dreadfort and those houses trusted each other enough that heir of House Bolton lived years with Redforts. 

[Green Stag]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:17 PM, Loose Bolt said:

There are also possible connections between Boltons and House Redfort. After all Boltons were Red Kings, their castles are Redfort and Dreadfort and those houses trusted each other enough that heir of House Bolton lived years with Redforts. 

I hadn't thought of a family connection between the Redforts and Boltons, but it makes sense.  I had assumed that it was perhaps a move by Roose Bolton to maybe counter some of the Stark influence in Vale, and the Stark relationship with House Royce and Arryn.  Possible family connection works better, but I wonder when it would have occurred.  

[Hippocras]

We are diverging a fair bit from the original question, of whether any other families see their family names used as first names elsewhere.

 

18 hours ago, Green Stag said:

I hadn't thought of a family connection between the Redforts and Boltons, but it makes sense.  I had assumed that it was perhaps a move by Roose Bolton to maybe counter some of the Stark influence in Vale, and the Stark relationship with House Royce and Arryn.  Possible family connection works better, but I wonder when it would have occurred.  

It is definitely a complicated web. Looking at first names might help a bit even there, as sometimes these names hint at family connections even when they are not also derived from family names.

I think we can assume though that First men Houses have often worked to maintain their beliefs and customs by inter-marriage with other houses of like mind, regardless of where they are on the continent. This has lead to a great deal of spreading out from places of origin. It would make family ties between the North and the Vale, the Vale and the Riverlands, and the Riverlands and the Stormlands etc. relatively frequent.

 

[Hippocras]

In replying to another topic I came across Sansara Tarly. The name interested me because it is close to the name Sansa. I looked into who else was named Sansa or Sansara, in which families.

Sansara Tarly was an eligible maiden in 133 A.C. born 115-120

Sansa Stark, granddaughter of Cregan, daughter of Rickon who was born in 128 A.C. Sansa's mother was likely a daughter of Torrhen Manderly, regent, then Hand to Aegon III. It is speculative, but very possible, that Torrhen Married Sansara Tarly and then their daughter Jeyne Married Rickon Stark. Further support for this lies in the fact that Sansara's mother was named Jeyne.
Sansa Stark, daughter of Eddard. Named after the earlier Sansas

From Lineages and Histories Book
Sansa Hunter, whose mother was Serena Royca. Serena is also a name that appears in the Stark family tree, sister of Sansa. We don't have dates for Sansa Hunter or Serena Royce, but it is also possible that Sansa Hunter was the mother of Jeyne Manderly. or maybe of Arra Norrey

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Hippocras

[Craving Peaches]

On 10/31/2023 at 7:18 PM, Hippocras said:

Sansara

I don't know if this is of any relevance, but that name sounds similar to Samsara:

Saṃsāra - Wikipedia

[Hippocras]

Jeyne is an interesting name, simply because of how frequently it appears in various places. It might be just so common that it has no meaning at all in terms of who is connected to who. Still, even then we can assume some sort of reason for the popularity of the name.

[Hippocras]

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne

The wiki has a list of all the known Jeynes. I can't find an original source unless all of these Jeynes were named for Jeyne Nutt. Still some similarities or parallels in their stories might be worth exploring.

[The hairy bear]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:08 AM, Hippocras said:

Wondering if Royce is the only example of this in the series

No it isn't. At least we have:

• House Rowan (named after its founder Rowan Gold-Tree, and also the name of a wilding spearwife)
• House Ambrose (sharing the name with Ambrose Butterwell)
• House Rogers (there are several Rogers, including Roger Reyne, Roger Blackwood, Roger Hogg,...)

On 10/27/2023 at 9:08 AM, Hippocras said:

and what it might mean when it occurs.

Absolutely nothing. It's just a common name that gets reused. In real life there are also many first names that also work as surnames and it doesn't need to have any particular meaning.

[Hippocras]

On 11/7/2023 at 6:36 PM, The hairy bear said:

No it isn't. At least we have:

• House Rowan (named after its founder Rowan Gold-Tree, and also the name of a wilding spearwife)
• House Ambrose (sharing the name with Ambrose Butterwell)
• House Rogers (there are several Rogers, including Roger Reyne, Roger Blackwood, Roger Hogg,...)

Thanks for this.

On 11/7/2023 at 6:36 PM, The hairy bear said:

Absolutely nothing. It's just a common name that gets reused. In real life there are also many first names that also work as surnames and it doesn't need to have any particular meaning.

I think it is more complicated than that. In real life people use whatever name they want now, but 100 years ago, names were chosen from family history and repeated over generations. GRRM is not oblivious to this fact.

The family names that are now used as first names very much have their origins in the family name version. And while anyone who wants to can use them now, originally when used this way it was because it held MEANING.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

I think the name Ambrose Butterwell is indeed hinting at a family connection there. Historically, we know of Aubrey Ambrose, a Blackfyre supporter in 196, Marq Ambrose, who was a Green and a Caltrops during the Dance and died in 130. Aegon Ambrose was a key figure of the Warrior's Sons. Rebellions all (also linked by chauvinism).

House Butterwell meanwhile may include some Aegon IV Great Bastards, and is historically linked to Maegor, Vissera, and Aegon IV, none of them shining examples of the best the Targaryen family had to offer.

Marriages between these families make sense.

My guess is that Lord Marq Ambrose of the Caltrops is the source on the Ambrose side, whose daughter or granddaughter married then-Lord Butterwell from as early as 132 to as late as 146. 

 

[Hippocras]

A bit of a digression, but has anyone else ever wondered about the name Barthogan? Very much an outlier it seems to me in the Stark family tree, and seems vaguely foreign. But if foreign, which origin?

[Hippocras]

Another name that might have originated as a family name reference:

Emmon.

I don't know what the Bar prefix means, so if it is something like Mc/Mac in Scotland and Ireland. But it certainly seems possible. In which case the name Emmon might indicate family connections by some path to House Bar Emmon.

The Bar Emmons would have been the most influential at two particular points in history: First, when then had successfully set up their own kingdom on Massey's Hook (with house Massey as vassals) in opposition to the Storm Kings and the Darklyn Kings of Duskendale. Second, when they were close allies of the Targaryens during the conquest with vague suggestions of family ties at the time. At either point in history the family would have been influential enough that descendants born into a different family may have used their family name as a first name to boast of their connection.

Edited January 21 by Hippocras

[Green Stag]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

I don't know what the Bar prefix means, so if it is something like Mc/Mac in Scotland and Ireland. But it certainly seems possible. In which case the name Emmon might indicate family connections by some path to House Bar Emmon.

The Bar Emmons would have been the most influential at two particular points in history: First, when then had successfully set up their own kingdom on Massey's Hook (with house Massey as vassals) in opposition to the Storm Kings and the Darklyn Kings of Duskendale. Second, when they were close allies of the Targaryens during the conquest with vague suggestions of family ties at the time. At either point in history the family would have been influential enough that descendants born into a different family may have used their family name as a first name to boast of their connection.

Not sure what the Bar prefix means either, at face value in English it could mean to "block" or "prevent".  I don't think it is a coincidence that we see what is possibly the prefix in Baratheon, if Orys Baratheon was indeed the bastard brother of Aegon, perhaps the name suggests his mother was from house Bar Emmon, thus giving the prefix?  A family relationship, even a bastard one, might in part explain why Bar Emmon sided with the Targaryens instead of the Durrandons

[Hippocras]

I have really become interested in a choice selection of first names. Not all given names make reference to House names of course, but all of the ones that interest me set off vibes of being references to lineage all the same. I have discussed Lysara and Alarra elsewhere. Right now I am looking into the name Alyssa.

The first historical reference to this name is Alyssa Arryn, who lived 2000-6000 years ago (so forever) but as she was an Arryn it would need to have been after the landing of the Andals in the Vale. We will call her the original Alyssa.

Next we have Alyssa Velaryon/Targaryen/Baratheon. While the Velaryons are listed as being a house of Valyrian culture and descent, their arrival in Westeros was earlier than the Targaryens and they clearly must have mingled a good deal with several Andal families along the Eastern coast of Westeros before the Targaryens arrived.

There are several hints of some unspecified form of Valyrian descent for House Arryn in the histories. House Arryn certainly managed to secure more than their fair share of marriage alliances with House Targaryen; a House that was otherwise obsessed with marrying their own. So it is hard to avoid concluding they must have been linked by blood somehow, if distantly. But since the family trees are very incomplete we are left guessing as to how.

I believe that the theory of first names passing on maternal line information can shed some light on the matter. Alyssa Velaryon's mother was Alarra Massey. House Massey was originally a First Men House, but at some point after the Andal invasions and before the arrival of the Targaryens, House Massey became linked to Togarion Bar Emmon, an Andal King, and from that point forward they shared the Bar Emmon Andal culture.  Both the Bar Emmons and the Masseys had a long history of fighting the Storm Kings of House Durrandon.

At the time of the conquest Massey's Hook was officially once again part of the Storm King's domain. But the Massey and Bar Emmons were clearly trying to win back their independance from the Storm Kings and had therefore in the recent past made family alliances with nearby Velaryons and Targaryens. Their efforts to restore their Andal kingdom in the Stormlands was also likely supported by the Andals of the Vale.

In other words, the possibility that Alarra Massey (Alyssa’s mother) had a distinguished ancestor from the Vale named Alyssa is supported by history, via the Massey link the the Bar Emmons and the Bar Emmon link to fiercely Andal families farther North. Meanwhile Alarra may have had a Massey sister or aunt who married into a Vale family to maintain the link. However at the time of the conquest the Arryns obviously felt sufficiently distant that they did not yield easily to Targaryen rule.

Edited January 23 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Alyssa cont'd

The myth of Alyssa's tears might give some insight before continuing:

- Alyssa saw her husband, brothers, and children murdered in front of her but did not shed a tear. I have questions! Did she in fact despise her family? Did her brothers force her to marry someone she absolutely hated, and give birth to children who belonged to the same awful (to her) tradition she did not want to be part of in the first place? Or was she just an extremely stoic person? The myth itself seems like it could be a reference to forced marriage between cultures that had been at war. Alyssa may have been an unwilling tool in a peace alliance.

Or not. It would fit with the history of the Vale of Arryn though.

- Alyssa's tears is a waterfall where the water never reaches the ground. Instead it is dispersed. This could yet again be an oblique reference to inter-cultural and inter-regional marriages. Maybe her children were not killed, but dispersed and far-flung, and married into Houses she hated, so dead to her. We can only guess what this myth might be telling us if anything at all, but looking into the other characters named Alyssa could offer some parallels.

 

Alyssa Velaryon

Alyssa Velaryon had many children who mostly survived to adulthood. First, her royal children Rhaena, Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, Alysanne. Next her Baratheon children Jocelyn and Boremund.

Rhaena and Aegon ended up fighting their uncle Maegor and losing, and their line may have ended (with several caveats). However even if they had no direct descendants, they did have an influence network, families that continued to be allied to each other and to Rhaena long into Jaehaerys's reign. 

Viserys died at the age of 15 and his line may have ended (with caveat). His mother Alyssa stoically left him to his fate with Maegor to save Jaehaerys and Alysanne (does that remind you of the original Alyssa?).

Jaehaerys and Alysanne of course ruled for many years and had many children, producing the royal line. they married each other against Alyssa's wishes.

Jocelyn married her half-niece Aemon and became the source of the line that was passed over in the Great Council of 101.

Boremund was a staunch supporter of his niece Rhaenys, but his son Borros chose the Greens in the Dance.

I am using the colours to indicate dispersion, descendants blown by the winds to all different parts of the Realm. There was of course further dispersion of Jaehaerys's children, and Alyssa herself had at least a few brothers but probably some other siblings who are not yet defined and written in to the family tree. The point is that Alyssa, her mother Alarra Massey's brothers and/or sisters, her Velaryon brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts etc. were the very tools that were used in the first hundred years after the conquest to knit the kingdoms together and form family bonds. Some of those matches were likely resented but they served both to distribute small droplets (mist really) of Targaryen blood to far flung parts of the Kingdoms and to bond regions to the Iron Throne.

 

Edited January 23 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

cont'd

Alyssa Blackwood

So now we come to Alyssa Blackwood. Right away many things are odd about what little we know of her story. First, Alyssa is a name of Andal origin and House Blackwood is emphatically not Andal. But we do know that over the centuries several marriages have been arranged between Houses Blackwood and Bracken to seal the peace. Alyssa Blackwood was very likely the product of one of these matches: A Bracken mother forced in the later part of the Blackfyre era to marry a Blackwood, and who remained a Bracken at heart, passing it on to her daughter. My reasoning is that the children of Alyssa Blackwood are all matched by marriage to families that have more historical links to the Brackens than to the Blackwoods.

Also, I am convinced for reasons I have explained elsewhere that a daughter of Alyn and Baela Velaryon was matched with a son of Benjicot Blackwood in 138 AC. In which case Alyssa Blackwood would have descended directly from Alyssa Velaryon via Daemon Targaryen. The name Alyssa would therefore have meaning to both Blackwoods and Brackens but for different reasons.

Some of Alyssa Blackwood's children were instrumental in the Red Wedding. They are also key schemers in the infighting that is about to lead to many deaths within the Frey family.

 

Alyssa Royce

Alyssa Royce was one of the maidens at the ball in 133. In a way we don't really need to look farther than the fact that Alyssa was from the Vale to understand why she has this name. But on the other hand Alyssa is an Andal name, and House Royce has a complicated history with Andal Houses. Alyssa's identity from birth would have been tied up with rebellions against and succession of Jeyne Arryn which led to war in 134 AC. We do not know what relationship she had to the other Royces of this period but the Royces were the main power block that fought against the succession of Joffrey Arryn. Arnold Arryn was a squire at Runestone in his youth, and likely married a daughter of that House. So Alyssa may have been the granddaughter of Gunthor, the niece of Arnold, cousin of Eldric Arryn and either the daughter or niece of Willam Royce.

We don't know anything really about this girl, however she did not marry the King. So her eventual marriage could very well have been a part of the resolution of the Vale succession conflict. Yet again a peace match between opposing sides.

Edited January 23 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

cont'd
 

Alyssa in the "Real" World

It is always worth investigating if the real world or the world of fiction has anything to offer in support of an idea about this series. The name Alyssa with that particular spelling does no turn up much in real life that would be likely to have inspired GRRM. Alternate spellings might prove more fruitful, but the key I think is that most of the alternates are believed to have derived from Queen Elissa, also known as Dido.

Dido/Elissa (according to fuzzy accounts) ran away from her brother's tyrannical rule and founded Carthage, after learning her brother Pygmalion of Tyre was responsible for the death of her husband. This certainly seems to potentially have some parallels to the story of Alyssa Arryn and maybe the arrival of the Andals. I will not post Dido's entire story here but there are several other interesting details that are potentially relevant.

Dido - Wikipedia

Another association that is almost certainly a source of inspiration for GRRM is Alyssa Moy from the Fantastic Four comics. I am not at all a comic book reader but I know that GRRM was. Read about her here:

List of Marvel Comics characters: M - Wikipedia

These parts in particular stuck out for me:

"In some storylines, she acts as the de facto manager for the Fantastic Four, responsible for generating their aliases and visual identities."

"At some time in the far past, Reed Richards had proposed to Moy. Moy turned him down because she felt that they had a 'duty' to spread their genius-level genes as widely as possible rather than 'confine' themselves to each other."

 

[Hippocras]

Another, vaguely related pattern I have noticed with names is recurring prefixes within certain families that seem too similar to Free City names to be entirely coincidence. 

The Lannisters of course use the Ty prefix overwhelmingly often, but Myr also occurs within the Lannister family. There are also several Lys prefix names that seem like they could potentially be oblique references to lineage (in most cases quite far back).

Ty (Lannisters)
- Tya
- Tywin
- Tywald
- Tywell
- Tytos
- Tybald
- Tybolt
- Tyrion
- Tyrek
- Tyshara
- Tymond
- Tygett
- Tyland

Ty (Other)
- Tyrell
- Tyta Frey
- Tyanna/Tyana
- Tysane
- Tysha
- Tyler

 

Myr
- Myrcella
- Myrielle (Peake, Lannister)
- Myranda (Lefford, Lannister, Royce)
- Myria/Myriah (Martell, Jordayne)
- Myraime (Stark, Manderly)

 

Lys
- Lysara (Rogare, Karstark)
- Lysaro
- Lysandro
- Lysa (Tully, Farman, Locke, Meadows, Tyrell)

 

In the case of the Lys prefix the association with the city of Lys via the Rogares is quite direct and obvious. One can't help wondering if the Ty prefix for Lannisters has the same sort of association, and if so, what is their historic connection to Tyrosh?