Nymor letter theories

[KingAerys_II]

Water Magic is not blood magic, Valyrian sorcerers were the most powerful because of blood and fire magic, that's why Targaryens words are fire and blood 

[SaffronLady]

34 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Water Magic is not blood magic,  

Nothing proves or denies that. Green magic involves feeding blood to the weirwoods, so that's a case of non-Valyrian magic being blood magic.

[KingAerys_II]

There are no accounts of water wizards in Dorne during the first dornish war, Conquest of Dorne and in the current history. 

The reconstruction of the facts I exposed is fanfic, the author knows the truth, however it follows a logic

[Alester Florent]

21 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

There are no accounts of water wizards in Dorne during the first dornish war, Conquest of Dorne and in the current history. 

The reconstruction of the facts I exposed is fanfic, the author knows the truth, however it follows a logic

And there were no accounts of shadow assassins murdering anyone during recorded history, and yet here we are.

It's not that hard to imagine. The Dornish, desperate to find a way to turn Aegon aside, turn to ancient records and turn up water magic rituals, or maybe after the death of Meria the maesters supply some. Then they write a letter that goes along the lines of: "Hey, remember that time that the Rhoynar took out two dragons at Volon Therys with water magic? No? We do. And we know how to do it again. So how about we call off this whole war thing and make a deal, otherwise we'll be starting our magic programme up again. What's that, you say? Water magicians only work on the Rhoyne and not on Westerosi rivers or the sea? Got any basis for that? Can you afford to take the chance?"

Aegon then flies off to Dragonstone to consult histories and concludes that this is indeed conceptually possible.

[KingAerys_II]

The Water Wizards did a good job by doing nothing meanwhile Balerion turned Dorne into a blasting ruin, Nymor Martell sent her heir in Aegonfort surrounded by lord and the population that despised her for the things dornishmen did in the Stormlands, Reach and Crownlands to deliver a threat about magical stuff with water that was never used in the first dornish and during the Conquest of Dorne, why the letter? Why keeping the secret about Water Wizards, that according to you they are able to do tsunami and kill dragons, even though they did nothing during the destruction of Dorne 

Edited November 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Lord Varys]

Any 'dragonslaying with magic' theories are utter nonsense simply for the fact that Aegon just received A STUPID LETTER! You can write anything in a letter, true things or false things, not to mention that Aegon himself lived a hundred years after the Doom and should have had no clue about genuine anti-dragon magics. Meaning something like that would never have caused him to behave the way he actually did.

The only thing that makes even remotely sense is that Aegon is personally affected or threatened in a way that he knew was real. Else he would have reacted very differently. Magic talk doesn't even remotely fall into that category.

[Alester Florent]

The collective failure of imagination is disheartening. 

[KingAerys_II]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Any 'dragonslaying with magic' theories are utter nonsense simply for the fact that Aegon just received A STUPID LETTER! You can write anything in a letter, true things or false things, not to mention that Aegon himself lived a hundred years after the Doom and should have had no clue about genuine anti-dragon magics. Meaning something like that would never have caused him to behave the way he actually did.

The only thing that makes even remotely sense is that Aegon is personally affected or threatened in a way that he knew was real. Else he would have reacted very differently. Magic talk doesn't even remotely fall into that category.

Imagine Aegon saying to Aenys "Hey, son, let's have a party with the people that killed your mother and caused your mental breakdown, but don't worry, I have good relations with Deria Martell because she threatened me with magical stuff she never used when I tried to roast her people" 

Edited November 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The collective failure of imagination is disheartening. 

I quite enjoy the water magic theory myself. I'm not sold on it, of course, but I think it would be neat if George reintroduced us to the magic of the Rhoynar. It's a more entertaining take than the "bad plot device" idea.

[Lord Varys]

To be sure, personal threats to Aegon and his family also shouldn't hold much water. Why would he believe such threats? Why isn't he arrogant or confident enough to counter them or protect, say, Aenys from assassins? The guy rules almost an entire continent and Dorne is done.

Bottom line is - this whole thing is just lazy writing on George's part. Good writing would actual give us the real reason for the peace (there is no need to make this a secret) or there would be a number of plausible answers to this question.

None we are given make much sense, and the ones the readership came up are even worse.

The whole thing might have worked better if Aegon's losses had been greater in the army/economy department and if the personal losses hadn't been that great (i.e. no dead Rhaenys in Dorne).

Obviously, the best realistic take on the end of the war could have been that rebellions were brewing elsewhere in the Realm while the Targaryens wasted so much time and effort on Dorne while Meria showed all of Westeros that the dragons were not miracle weapons and resistance and rebellion were possible. Thus Aegon could have stopped the war because the Lannisters, Arryns, and/or Starks were pondering taking up their crowns again.

In fact, something like that should have happened after Aegon let Nymor and Deria off the hook so easily. Resistance was possible, after all, the Dornish proved it, so why didn't anybody follow their example? Just 14 years passed since the Conquest, Aegon and Visenya were growing old, and they were down to but two dragons.

[KingAerys_II]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

To be sure, personal threats to Aegon and his family also shouldn't hold much water. Why would he believe such threats? Why isn't he arrogant or confident enough to counter them or protect, say, Aenys from assassins? The guy rules almost an entire continent and Dorne is done.

Bottom line is - this whole thing is just lazy writing on George's part. Good writing would actual give us the real reason for the peace (there is no need to make this a secret) or there would be a number of plausible answers to this question.

None we are given make much sense, and the ones the readership came up are even worse.

The whole thing might have worked better if Aegon's losses had been greater in the army/economy department and if the personal losses hadn't been that great (i.e. no dead Rhaenys in Dorne).

Obviously, the best realistic take on the end of the war could have been that rebellions were brewing elsewhere in the Realm while the Targaryens wasted so much time and effort on Dorne while Meria showed all of Westeros that the dragons were not miracle weapons and resistance and rebellion were possible. Thus Aegon could have stopped the war because the Lannisters, Arryns, and/or Starks were pondering taking up their crowns again.

In fact, something like that should have happened after Aegon let Nymor and Deria off the hook so easily. Resistance was possible, after all, the Dornish proved it, so why didn't anybody follow their example? Just 14 years passed since the Conquest, Aegon and Visenya were growing old, and they were down to but two dragons.

Rhaenys convinced him to end the war. 

It's true Aegon and Visenya were old, but Maegor claimed Balerion who became bigger, same for Vhagar, new dragons hatched : Quicksilver, Vermithor, Silverwing and other dragons on Dragonstone, Aenys was a weak king, the desire of revenge against Dorne united Orys and Sam the savage against the Vulture King and Walter Wyl

[Alester Florent]

41 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I quite enjoy the water magic theory myself. I'm not sold on it, of course, but I think it would be neat if George reintroduced us to the magic of the Rhoynar. It's a more entertaining take than the "bad plot device" idea.

I think if this kind of speculation is to have any value we have to give GRRM the benefit of the doubt and assume that it isn't a bad plot device, even if we more soberly think it is.

I'm not really convinced by any of the theories going, but this one seems better to me than any of the "official" ones.

As to why the Dornish didn't use water magic previously, that's not hard to explain. Just look at the other magic we see in the series. Only a handful of people can do it at all, it demands a price that few are willing to pay, and it's a "sword without a hilt": once unleashed it can be hard to control. Take your pick of those three for why Dorne didn't use it previously. Heck, it could be all three. We could also imagine that Nymor has learned about the water magic, but Meria hasn't. So he doesn't divulge it to her because he's afraid of what she'll do with it. Or that Meria was planning to use it but didn't get the opportunity before she died, and Nymor decided to reopen negotiations with the "nuclear threat" on the table.

We might as well ask why Stannis didn't use Mel's magic to win at the Blackwater. There we know the answer, and there are many who believe that Stannis's reasons for not doing so are questionable.

 

[Mourning Star]

I still like the idea that, 3 years after giving birth to Aenys, Rhaenys was pregnant again when she fell at Hellholt.

The descriptions of her torture were in fact the sounds of her childbirth, which killed her.

This also might help explain why, in the dragon's wroth, Sunspear was not targeted, and the life of the child may have been part of the letter to Aegon and a reason for peace.

This child may have become the Vulture King, and House Blackmont's sigil is a vulture carrying a baby.

[KingAerys_II]

Let's look at Rhaenys personality : the smallfolk was a great concern for the Queen and she wanted Aegon to outlaw the tradition of the Ironborn  to steal women.

She attacked Planky Town where fewer than one hundred people died from drowning, so she planned the attack to avoid bloodshed. 

Visenya and Aegon almost annihilated the dornish smallfolk and she witnessed the devastation as a prisoner. 

I don't think she was glad her siblings were destroying an entire civilization in her name

Edited November 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Alester Florent]

34 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Visenya and Aegon almost annihilated the dornish smallfolk 

You keep saying this, but did they? They burned castles and towns, but this is a pre-industrial society and most people will have lived in villages. Sure, a lot of Dornish people will have died, but I suspect the casualties fell disproportionately on the knightly and noble classes.

[KingAerys_II]

It's stated that 4 consecutive lords of Hellholt, Lady Toland and Lord Fowler died, but plague and famine affect the common people more than the nobles 

[SaffronLady]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Good writing would actual give us the real reason for the peace (there is no need to make this a secret) or there would be a number of plausible answers to this question.

I have to agree that a mystery letter was a pretty bad choice for the end of the Dornish war.

[KingAerys_II]

It's very unlikely the letter was a threat. 

Aegon having good relations with Deria Martell and the feast to celebrate the peace in Sunspear make threat theories not plausibile. 

Aenys had two regressions: the first one when his mother fell at Hellholt, second one when Aegon and Rhaena became prisoners of the Faith Militant. 

He was frail and weak, I don't think he would meet people that tortured and murdered his mother and caused his sufferings as a child, it is more likely Deria and Nymor rescued her and protected her from torture ordered by Meria Martell

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

It's very unlikely the letter was a threat. 

Aegon having good relations with Deria Martell and the feast to celebrate the peace in Sunspear make threat theories not plausibile.

I mean, relations with Deria weren't great. They just weren't overtly hostile. Deria still didn't lift a finger to stop the Vulture King.

Quote

He was frail and weak, I don't think he would meet people that tortured and murdered his mother and caused his sufferings as a child, it is more likely Deria and Nymor rescued her and protected her from torture ordered by Meria Martell

Or maybe he and Aegon decided to be reasonable, swallow their pride and make nice with people who had nothing to do with his mother's death. Rhaenys was shot down trying to burn a castle, which she was attacking in a war of aggression ordered by Aegon. She was hardly an innocent victim in all this, and that she survived the fall at all, let alone being tortured thereafter, remains entirely speculative.

Reconciliation is a thing. Not everyone is all Walder Frey about it.

[KingAerys_II]

The water magic stuff is completely wrong, it's illogical fanfic. 

-There are no accounts of wizards using water against dragons during the dragon wroth 

-Dornishmen never used it against their neighbors, there are no accounts of water wizards since the arrival of Nymeria and magic against Gardener or Durrandon armies. 

-Morion Martell didn't use any magical stuff, he equipped the Myrish fleet with scorpion bolts, he died and the fleet was burned. 

-There are no account of Water Wizards during the Conquest of Dorne

-Water Wizards used the water of Mother Rhoyne against dragons. Mother Rhoyne is a river Goddess. 

It's illogical fanfic and I am surprised it has great success in this fandom

Edited November 4, 2023 by KingAerys_II