Did the Targaryens colonize Westeros?

[Craving Peaches]

35 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

What if Argilac meant for him to marry matrilineally, though?

If Aegon I is invading Westeros to unify it against the others, the benefit of not giving the Others free soldiers through getting people needlessly killed in war, should outweigh the reduction in his own power that having the children belong to House Durrandon would bring.

If Aegon is invading just because he can and wants power it makes sense for him to refuse a matrilineal marriage. Not so if he is invading to 'save' people though.

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Aegon I is invading Westeros to unify it against the others, the benefit of not giving the Others free soldiers through getting people needlessly killed in war, should outweigh the reduction in his own power that having the children belong to House Durrandon would bring.

If Aegon is invading just because he can and wants power it makes sense for him to refuse a matrilineal marriage. Not so if he is invading to 'save' people though.

We'd need some more information.  

Presumably, the numbers of the Watch would have been pretty reasonable when Bloodraven was sent there with his archers.

But, there ought to have been a big influx of dispossessed lords and knights, after Robert's Rebellion concluded, too.

At some stage, the Watch goes from being respected institution to Vologda Labour Camp of Strict Regime Number 3, but when?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

At some stage, the Watch goes from being respected institution to Vologda Labour Camp of Strict Regime Number 3, but when?

During the Targaryen's reign, lol. Aegon did a great job preparing for the Others. Just spectacular! 

[SaffronLady]

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

At some stage, the Watch goes from being respected institution to Vologda Labour Camp of Strict Regime Number 3, but when?

Peace was not good for creating lords and knights that have only the Wall left for them...

46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Aegon is invading just because he can and wants power it makes sense for him to refuse a matrilineal marriage.

This is the first time I consciously managed to get someone else speak my mind. Yay.

[KingAerys_II]

Argillac wanted him to marry his daughter and take some lands in the Crownlands that partially belonged to Harren so he should have killed Harren to claim them, he refused, instead he suggested his brother to take the lands and Argella.

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Argillac wanted him to marry his daughter and take some lands in the Crownlands that partially belonged to Harren so he should have killed Harren to claim them, he refused, instead he suggested his brother to take the lands and Argella.

None of this explains why Aegon I chose to kill more people than necessary when he is supposed to be preparing to fight the Others. In fact it backs up my point. He had the choice between fighting Argilac and a load of Stormlander troops or killing one guy, Harren. He chose the former option, which was more costly in lives, because?

Are you seriously claiming that Aegon thought some guy called 'The Arrogant' would be satisfied with his bastard half-brother as a consolation prize for his only daughter? Do you think Aegon I is stupid?

[KingAerys_II]

21 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon’s dream isn’t mentioned in George R.R. Martin’s Fire & Blood, but it was brought up by Martin himself in a conversation with the House of the Dragonshowrunners. In an interview with Polygon, showrunner Ryan J. Condal said:

“That actually came from [Martin] … He told us very early on in the room — just as he does, just casually mentioned the fact that Aegon the Conqueror was a dreamer who saw a vision of the White Walkers coming across the wall and sweeping over the land with cold and darkness. So, with his permission, of course, we infused that into the story because it was such a great way to create resonance with the original show.”

Aegon the Conqueror is described as a mysterious, solitary person who didn’t seem to have much of an interest in ruling Westeros once he conquered it. His true motivation for invading is left open to interpretation, and the dream frames his conquest in a much more noble light.

Source:Forbes

I reported the interview where Ryan Condall stated that Aegon dream was spoiler he introduced in him TV series. 

On 12/5/2023 at 12:25 PM, KingAerys_II said:

"Jaehaerys had been influenced by a woods witch brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones. The woods witch prophesied that the prince that was promised would be born from Aerys's and Rhaella's line,making Jaehaerys determined to marry his daughter to his son"

"However, apparently by something he had read, Rhaegar became motivated to become a warrior"

"Maester Aemon, whom Rhaegar corresponded with via raven messages, remembers that Rhaegar believed his child Aegon to be the prince that was promised."

" In one of her visions within the House of the Undying, Daenerys Targaryen sees a newborn Aegon nursing from the breast of Elia Martell, who is seated in a great wooden bed. Rhaegar names the child "Aegon", stating the name is fit for a king. When Elia asks whether Rhaegar will make a song for their son, he replies that Aegon, the prince that was promised, already has the song of ice and fire. "

"Septon Barth's claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea. "

Then I posted everything related to the prophecy, especially Daenerys dream where she saw Rhaegar speaking of" The Song of Ice and Fire". 

Comparing Aegon dream to theory without sense about Renly is delusional

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Then I posted everything related to the prophecy, especially Daenerys dream where she saw Rhaegar speaking of" The Song of Ice and Fire".

None of what you posted relates to Aegon I. It is about Rhaegar and Daenerys. Show me something about Aegon I. Where does it suggest he knew about a prophecy that the Others would invade and unified Westeros because of it? Why did he take so many actions contrary to this aim?

4 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

I reported the interview where Ryan Condall stated that Aegon dream was spoiler he introduced in him TV series.

Spoiler for TV series, not books.

[KingAerys_II]

It was spoiler of the books

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

It was spoiler of the books

Actual evidence of this, rather than just you asserting it, would be nice. Where does GRRM say that it will feature in the books, or that what he revealed also applied to the books?

[KingAerys_II]

Someone had to write the things Rhaegar read in the scrolls, now we don't know who composed "A Song of ice and fire"that speaks about the long night ,did Rhaegar compose the song? Anyway the Prince that was promised is a secret known by Maester Aemon too, so it was a know fact in House Targaryen.
Septon Barth made that claim about "The Doom of Men", he was Jaehaerys closest friend.

[Craving Peaches]

31 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Someone had to write the things Rhaegar read in the scrolls, now we don't know who composed "A Song of ice and fire"that speaks about the long night ,did Rhaegar compose the song? Anyway the Prince that was promised is a secret known by Maester Aemon too, so it was a know fact in House Targaryen.
Septon Barth made that claim about "The Doom of Men", he was Jaehaerys closest friend.

None of this suggests to any degree that Aegon I knew. We all know and accept that Rhaegar knew of a prophecy. Where is the evidence Aegon I knew? Maester Aemon knowing about it has no bearing on whether Aegon I knew about it. He was born after Aegon and could have read about it anywhere.

[KingAerys_II]

It's very likely the scroll Rhaegar read is one of Septon Barth writings Viserys II saved from Baelor the Blessed that wanted to burn them all

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

It's very likely the scroll Rhaegar read is one of Septon Barth writings Viserys II saved from Baelor the Blessed that wanted to burn them all

This is connected to Aegon I how? Nothing you have suggested goes any way to evidencing that Aegon I had a prophetic dream about the others and invaded for that reason. Saying that Rhaegar read X or Aemon read Y means nothing in terms of showing whether Aegon I knew.

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Are you seriously claiming that Aegon thought some guy called 'The Arrogant' would be satisfied with his bastard half-brother as a consolation prize for his only daughter? Do you think Aegon I is stupid?

I have speculated on this whole situation previously and wondered if the whole thing was a gigantic cultural misunderstanding. We don't know, I don't think, whether Argilac acquired his nickname before he rejected Aegon's offer, or if that's what the maesters called him afterwards in light of it. The World of Ice and Fire, in the Conquest section, calls him "Argilac" until the spurned marriage proposal, and only then starts calling him "the Arrogant".

The funny thing is that I suspect Aegon and Argilac knew each other. They'd both fought against Volantis, perhaps not at the same time, but on the same side. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to learn that Argilac and Aerion were friendly. In any case, Argilac and the Targs may not have been friends, but there appears to have been at least a degree of mutual respect given that both sides were contemplating the marriage alliance at all. If Aegon was planning on conquering Westeros already, Argilac should have been his natural ally. Which means that either one or the other set out deliberately to cause deadly offence to precipitate a war, or somewhere some wires got crossed. And in accordance with Hanlon's Razor I'm inclined towards the latter.

My suspicion would be that the two marriage offers were made in good faith, with Argilac perhaps assuming that since Aegon was apparently on board for polygamy that another wife would make no difference, or that his marriage to Visenya and Rhaenys was akin to a "salt wife" marriage, not wholly legitimate and capable of being superseded. Aegon, perhaps a bit aggrieved, but willing to give Argilac the benefit of the doubt, declines the offer but makes a counter-offer for what he sees as the next-best thing (his right-hand-man and the son of a great lord), massively underestimating Argilac's prejudice against bastards. (Pace Jaehaerys I have also of course wondered whether Orys was in fact Argilac's bastard son, which would make him more suitable as a match from Aegon's perspective, and more insulting from Argilac's). Argilac takes offence and mutilates Aegon's envoy, an insult which can't be left unanswered.

Quote

This is connected to Aegon I how? Nothing you have suggested goes any way to evidencing that Aegon I had a prophetic dream about the others and invaded for that reason. Saying that Rhaegar read X or Aemon read Y means nothing in terms of showing whether Aegon I knew.

I do also believe that the prophecies rediscovered in the later Targaryen era predated the Conquest and were known to Aegon and his immediate successors (being forgotten during/after the Dance, when the breaking of the regular succession meant that they weren't transmitted). That doesn't necessarily mean that it was Aegon who had the prophetic dream, and it might have been subject to some Chinese whispers by the time he heard it. Dreams are also tricky things: even if it was his dream, he may have come away from it with a sense of significance and what needs to be done ("the world is in danger, only our dragons can save it, the dragon must have three heads") but not the detail of why or what ("the enemy is a bunch of ice monsters who have power over the dead and will come from the north") thereby overlooking things like the Night's Watch which he should be building up. I still think in that case there are some serious questions to be answered, mind, because if I got a prophecy saying "the world is going to be attacked by something that only our dragons can stop" the first place I'd be looking is the giant magical ice wall whose stewards call themselves "the shield(s) that guard the realms of men". But much would depend on the details of what Aegon knew, or thought he knew.

All of which is to say, I guess, that I do think Aegon was motivated at least in part by some sense of prophecy or destiny and that GRRM's comments regarding HotD do have some significance for the book version too. But I think the version of the explanation from HotD, for understandable reasons, compresses and simplifies this and that the version we get in the books, while retaining the underlying thrust, will differ significantly in the detail - if it's revealed in full at all.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Alester Florent

[KingAerys_II]

18 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I have speculated on this whole situation previously and wondered if the whole thing was a gigantic cultural misunderstanding. We don't know, I don't think, whether Argilac acquired his nickname before he rejected Aegon's offer, or if that's what the maesters called him afterwards in light of it. The World of Ice and Fire, in the Conquest section, calls him "Argilac" until the spurned marriage proposal, and only then starts calling him "the Arrogant".

The funny thing is that I suspect Aegon and Argilac knew each other. They'd both fought against Volantis, perhaps not at the same time, but on the same side. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to learn that Argilac and Aerion were friendly. In any case, Argilac and the Targs may not have been friends, but there appears to have been at least a degree of mutual respect given that both sides were contemplating the marriage alliance at all. If Aegon was planning on conquering Westeros already, Argilac should have been his natural ally. Which means that either one or the other set out deliberately to cause deadly offence to precipitate a war, or somewhere some wires got crossed. And in accordance with Hanlon's Razor I'm inclined towards the latter.

My suspicion would be that the two marriage offers were made in good faith, with Argilac perhaps assuming that since Aegon was apparently on board for polygamy that another wife would make no difference, or that his marriage to Visenya and Rhaenys was akin to a "salt wife" marriage, not wholly legitimate and capable of being superseded. Aegon, perhaps a bit aggrieved, but willing to give Argilac the benefit of the doubt, declines the offer but makes a counter-offer for what he sees as the next-best thing (his right-hand-man and the son of a great lord), massively underestimating Argilac's prejudice against bastards. (Pace Jaehaerys I have also of course wondered whether Orys was in fact Argilac's bastard son, which would make him more suitable as a match from Aegon's perspective, and more insulting from Argilac's). Argilac takes offence and mutilates Aegon's envoy, an insult which can't be left unanswered.

I do also believe that the prophecies rediscovered in the later Targaryen era predated the Conquest and were known to Aegon and his immediate successors (being forgotten during/after the Dance, when the breaking of the regular succession meant that they weren't transmitted). That doesn't necessarily mean that it was Aegon who had the prophetic dream, and it might have been subject to some Chinese whispers by the time he heard it. Dreams are also tricky things: even if it was his dream, he may have come away from it with a sense of significance and what needs to be done ("the world is in danger, only our dragons can save it, the dragon must have three heads") but not the detail of why or what ("the enemy is a bunch of ice monsters who have power over the dead and will come from the north") thereby overlooking things like the Night's Watch which he should be building up. I still think in that case there are some serious questions to be answered, mind, because if I got a prophecy saying "the world is going to be attacked by something that only our dragons can stop" the first place I'd be looking is the giant magical ice wall whose stewards call themselves "the shield(s) that guard the realms of men". But much would depend on the details of what Aegon knew, or thought he knew.

All of which is to say, I guess, that I do think Aegon was motivated at least in part by some sense of prophecy or destiny and that GRRM's comments regarding HotD do have some significance for the book version too. But I think the version of the explanation from HotD, for understandable reasons, compresses and simplifies this and that the version we get in the books, while retaining the underlying thrust, will differ significantly in the detail - if it's revealed in full at all.

I believe he acquired the nickname after the Conquest, before the Conquest he proved to be the best warrior king, who fought a war in the Disputed Lands, defeated in single combat a Gardener King and rejected a dornish invasion, he was very good and underrated, he lost to Orys because he was old

[KingAerys_II]

Aegon refused Argella, Sharra Arryn and other ladies, it's not impossible he was aware to be sterile