Did the Targaryens colonize Westeros?

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

Odoacer was the general of german mercenaries, that had not intention to integrate into Roman society, the Germans had an oral tradition, germanic language and some converted to Christianity, the Arianism. 

Lots of german tribes had the runic alphabet, including the Goths. 

The Goths conquered part of Italy after defeating Odoacer and the tribes that supported him. 

Source : history books about barbarians and Roman Empire

Aww man, you just had to wade into my relative field of expertise don't you?

Odovacer had every intention to integrate into Roman political society. His rule was supported by both the Senate in Old Rome and the Emperor Zeno in New Rome. He spoke Latin to the Romans, his coinage was minted in the Roman Emperor's name, and he implemented other measures Craving Peaches mentioned.

He did keep his own people Arian but he didn't proselytize.

And the most funny thing is, the Goths that invaded Italy did so at the Roman Emperor's request. It was still Zeno, in fact. So it wasn't a colonization, it was an internal power struggle of the Roman Empire.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Odoacer did what the Targaryens did, and loads of other medieval rulers who wouldn't be called 'colonialists'. Either they are all 'colonialists' or none of them are. Show me proof that Odoacer forced the natives to use his language, adopt his customs, oppressed them more than usual? Because there is quote a lot of evidence to the contrary. From the Wikipedia page:

 

So did the Targaryens. King's Landing. Targaryens let 'foreigners' settle too, as Saffron Lady pointed out.

Pretty much.

Odoacer is a good example of the fact that medieval people didn't mind, that much, being ruled by "foreigners" (and by then, they'd have been pretty used to Germans in positions of power).  

[Alester Florent]

8 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

The Franks adopted a romance language, do you know what means? It means they started using the Latin alphabet. 

That's not what that means. Alphabets are irrelevant.

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French language has Latin substrate, it's very different to the Frankish language. 

French doesn't have a Latin substrate: it is a direct descendant of Latin with a Gaulish substrate and a Germanic superstrate.

The Franks didn't start using Latin/French immediately on arrival. It took generations for Frankish to disappear and for Old French to become the norm. Note too that the development of Old French in Frankish areas is mirrored almost exactly by the development of Old Spanish, early Catalan and early Occitan, i.e. the Romance languages in the areas that remained dominated by Gothic nobility. There was little to no meaningful difference between the way the Goths interacted with the Roman cultural legacy in Spain (and the way they were trending in Italy before Justinian) and the way that the Franks did in France, except that perhaps the Goths were more friendly towards Rome.

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Odoacer used a germanic language and the runic alphabet. 

The Goths (not that Odoacer was necessarily Gothic) had abandoned the runic alphabet by this time and were using the Gothic alphabet, but they also wrote in Latin (see: Isidore of Seville).

Edited December 3, 2023 by Alester Florent

[KingAerys_II]

French comes from a vulgar Latin used by Gaelic tribes. Franks established a common language that was different from the frankish language.
Maybe I made confusion in my previous statement, but Odoacer was not king of Goths, he was king of a confederation of german tribes.
The German tribes didn't use the Latin alphabet, most of the German tribes had an oral tradition, some, as the Longbards, had the runic alphabet.
The Gothic language is partially Greek and had some elements of the runic alphabet. German tribes led by Odoacer were not Goths, so they never used the Gothic alphabet, in Italy people used to speak Latin not Greek.

[Alester Florent]

8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

French comes from a vulgar Latin used by Gaelic tribes. Franks established a common language that was different from the frankish language.

The Gaels were/are in Ireland and Scotland; you mean Gaulish. After the Frankish conquest, both Latin and Frankish continued in use, but over centuries of co-existence, the Latin changed under Frankish influence and the Frankish eventually died out. The Franks didn't come in and "establish" French: French evolved, and in different ways in different parts of what we now consider France. It wasn't until the seventeenth century that there were concerted efforts to establish a common language.
 

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The German tribes didn't use the Latin alphabet, most of the German tribes had an oral tradition, some, as the Longbards, had the runic alphabet.

Alphabets are largely irrelevant. You can write virtually any language in virtually any alphabet if you're sufficiently determined.

Given that the vast majority of the population would have been functionally illiterate, the spoken language is far more relevant than what alphabet they used.

Once they began settling Roman territory, the Germanic tribes almost all began writing in Latin using the Roman alphabet - in Italy, in France, in Spain. This is one of the reasons so few examples of Germanic script survive: even Gothic only really survives in bible translations.
 

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The Gothic language is partially Greek and had some elements of the runic alphabet. German tribes led by Odoacer were not Goths, so they never used the Gothic alphabet, in Italy people used to speak Latin not Greek.

Again, you're confusing "language" and "alphabet".

Odoacer's coalition probably included Goths: the Goths had got everywhere by that point. But Theodoric, who followed Odoacer, was Gothic, as were his successors.

You may also underestimate the extent of Greek. Latin was in decline as a language of government and aristocracy in both east and west by the fourth century. Much of southern Italy (and Sicily, which was not considered part of Italy proper) had always been Greek-speaking and remained so for centuries after the fall of Rome.

 

With hand on heart, I'm not actually sure what we're talking about any more. We're discussing abstruse points of history in which you come up with an apparently ill-informed or poorly-sourced-sourced statement (no, "books on history" doesn't count as a source) and we correct you, then you just come up with more. The Targaryens and what they did seem to have long since receded. And I'm still awaiting an answer to my question from page one as to why the question of "did the Targaryens colonise Westeros" is important, when we know that they violently conquered it. Unless this shows signs of changing imminently, I think I'll be bailing out again.

[KingAerys_II]

Greek became the official language of the Byzantine Empire, the Goths invaded Byzantine Empire after the battle of Hadrianopolis, that's why the Gothic alphabet had Greek elements. 

The Emperor sent Theodoric, the king of Goths, to defeat Odoacer,that's it, the Kingdom of Italy lasted 20 years, the Romans kept speaking Latin, Odoacer and his supporters had no alphabet or they used the runic alphabet as the Longbards did

[Alester Florent]

5 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Greek became the official language of the Byzantine Empire, the Goths invaded Byzantine Empire after the battle of Hadrianopolis, that's why the Gothic alphabet had Greek elements.

The Gothic alphabet was created before Adrianople. Yes, it does seem to have had some Greek inspiration. But, as above, I really don't see the relevance.

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The Emperor sent Theodoric, the king of Goths, to defeat Odoacer,that's it, the Kingdom of Italy lasted 20 years, the Romans kept speaking Latin, Odoacer and his supporters had no alphabet or they used the runic alphabet as the Longbards did

I'd ask for a source saying that Odoacer's administration didn't use Latin, but I know I won't get one.

Theodoric became king of Italy after defeating Odoacer. His kingdom lasted until the middle of the 6th century when the Byzantines destroyed it. Within 20 years, Alboin had re-established the kingdom of Italy, which endured until 1797 in some form or other, then was re-created in 1805 by Napoleon.

Anyway, with that, and in light of my post above and the response, I'm done. Cheerio.

[KingAerys_II]

The Gothic alphabet was invented to convert Goths to Christianity. 

Longbards and Byzantine Empire took control of Italy.

Longbards established laws written in Latin during the process of assimilation that lasted for a while, Odoacer's kingdom had no time for the assimilation. 

The Longbards were not kings of entire Italy, they only controlled the northern part. 

Longbards and the German tribes led by Odoacer used the runic alphabet, Longbards kept their tradition till the assimilation, they were defeated by the Franks, anyway, in Italy there was a Reign controlled by the Pope too

Edited December 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[SaffronLady]

38 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

the Gothic alphabet had Greek elements. 

The Latin alphabet had Greek elements too. Did the Romans colonize Greece?

Let me answer that for you: yes. I mean, people in Greece still call themselves Roman in the 14 century. That is actually a good example of colonization.

[SaffronLady]

Just now, KingAerys_II said:

The Longbards were not kings of entire Italy, they only controlled the northern part. 

Apulia and Benevento, both in the south, were also Lombard.

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

Odoacer's kingdom had no time for the assimilation. 

He literally was part of the Roman institution itself...

[Craving Peaches]

There's not much use in having a discussion when one side is ignoring (historical) facts and provides no evidence to back up their claims which contradict said facts.

[KingAerys_II]

27 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

The Latin alphabet had Greek elements too. Did the Romans colonize Greece?

Let me answer that for you: yes. I mean, people in Greece still call themselves Roman in the 14 century. That is actually a good example of colonization.

Two Roman Empires before the collapse of the Western Roman Empire : Western Roman Empire and Eastern Roman Empire.

The Byzantine Empire had Greek as official language, it lasted till the turks came

Edited December 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There's not much use in having a discussion when one side is ignoring (historical) facts and provides no evidence to back up their claims which contradict said facts.

I studied these things on history books not on wikipedia

[SaffronLady]

10 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Two Roman Empires before the collapse of the Western Roman Empire : Western Roman Empire and Eastern Roman Empire.

With this one sentence, you have proved this conversation would go on a worse trajectory than the Nymor letter thread.

11 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The Byzantine Empire had Greek as official language

The ERE also had Latin as an official language, if you ever read the Codex of Justinian you would know that.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

I studied these things on history books not on wikipedia

Give titles and authors. Saying you studied it in 'history books' alone is meaningless and not a good source. Wikipedia provides citations to authoritative works.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[KingAerys_II]

17 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

With this one sentence, you have proved this conversation would go on a worse trajectory than the Nymor letter thread.

The ERE also had Latin as an official language, if you ever read the Codex of Justinian you would know that.

The Byzantine Empire collapsed in 1453, Greek has been the official language for 900 years until the end, Justinian lived before Greek had become the official language 

Edited December 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So did Targaryens.

So did Targaryens.

Ok, so tell me when they sacked cities 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Ok, so tell me when they sacked cities 

Excluding Harrenhal even though it likely had loads of people, Bitterbridge, Spicetown, Tumbleton, etc.

[SaffronLady]

8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The Byzantine Empire collapsed in 1453, Greek has been the official language for 900 years until the end, Justinian lived before Greek had become the official language 

And when exactly did Greek become the official language? If your answer is Heraclius or Constans II, then well it shows you're not up to date with progess in Roman studies.

[KingAerys_II]

39 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Excluding Harrenhal even though it likely had loads of people, Bitterbridge, Spicetown, Tumbleton, etc.

The events happened during the Dance of the Dragons, not during the Conquest, irrelevant in this thread. 

Harrenhal took what it deserved

Edited December 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II