Did the Targaryens colonize Westeros?

[KingAerys_II]

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

There is no such thing as a non-exploitative conquest.

And look how well the Targs prepared Westeros for the end times, the Watch is now a tenth of its size before the Conquest, and they got almost all their dragons killed in a civil war. As a magical order, House Targaryen has failed rather spectacularly. In the end it may fall to random dragonseed Daenerys Waters to salvage the wreck they left.

Daenerys Waters? Ahahahah

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

France, England and Spain became nations before Germany and Italy. 

Germany became a Nation thanks to the efforts of Von Bismarck, the Germans founded German Empire after defeating France. 

The concept of Western Europe is related to the victory of Charles the Hammer at Poitiers, Franks founded France, they left a significant cultural impact. 

France, Spain, Germany were parts of the Holy Roman Empire, but they were already culturally and ethnically different

OK, I think the main issue here is a confusion of "nationhood" with political unification and state formation. They are not the same! It isn't a straightforward thing to explain but here is an article which may help: https://acoup.blog/2021/07/02/collections-my-country-isnt-a-nation/

But there are other issues. Spain was never part of the HRE (apart from, briefly, Catalonia, which was part of the kingdom of the Franks in its very early history). The concept of "Western Europe" as opposed to Eastern Europe goes back to Roman times and has little if anything to do with Charles Martel. France didn't attain it modern metropolitan borders until the 1860s. "England" as a political entity  has for almost its entire history also included Wales, which would rightly be called another nation. A kingdom of Germany existed throughout most the Middle Ages (as did a kingdom of Italy) and for most of that time was arguably more unified than France was: it was only in the later 13th century that it started to disintegrate. And the HRE was known as the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" from the 16th century onwards. Bismarck unified Germany (as an empire, including areas not strictly German!) but he didn't come up with the idea.

So in short, no, sorry.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Alester Florent

[KingAerys_II]

A small part of Spain was part of HRE, then there were the Asturias kingdom and the Cordoba Emirate (Andalus), I was talking about Karl V HRE,anyway, Spanish people were influenced by the Arabs, but they were wiped out after the Reconquista. 

Most of European nobility comes from the germanic tribes that invaded the Roman Empire, Spanish nobility mixed with the arabs

It's obvious there was no concept of State, but France, Spain and England were already nations with cultural and ethnic identities. 

Liberal State is a concept invented during the Enlightment

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

The Arabs and jews became the target of the Spanish inquisition, Arabs were called "moriscos", they had some influence in architecture, customs, etc., but the Reconquista played the major role, the historian started speaking of Europe as a cultural entity after the battle of Poitiers to make a distinction with the Islamic world

Edited December 2, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

OK, I think the main issue here is a confusion of "nationhood" with political unification and state formation. They are not the same! It isn't a straightforward thing to explain but here is an article which may help: https://acoup.blog/2021/07/02/collections-my-country-isnt-a-nation/

But there are other issues. Spain was never part of the HRE (apart from, briefly, Catalonia, which was part of the kingdom of the Franks in its very early history). The concept of "Western Europe" as opposed to Eastern Europe goes back to Roman times and has little if anything to do with Charles Martel. France didn't attain it modern metropolitan borders until the 1860s. "England" as a political entity  has for almost its entire history also included Wales, which would rightly be called another nation. A kingdom of Germany existed throughout most the Middle Ages (as did a kingdom of Italy) and for most of that time was arguably more unified than France was: it was only in the later 13th century that it started to disintegrate. And the HRE was known as the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" from the 16th century onwards. Bismarck unified Germany (as an empire, including areas not strictly German!) but he didn't come up with the idea.

So in short, no, sorry.

It was not a kingdom, but an Empire, the Germans created Germany after defeating the Hasburgs. 

There was not the concept of Germany before the unification of German States, the Italian kingdom never existed before the the foundation of the Kingdom of Italy that happened in 1848

Edited December 2, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[SeanF]

On 12/1/2023 at 6:57 PM, Northern Sword said:

Depends on your definition of colonize I guess.

How do YOU differentiate the difference between colonize and conquest? 

In the end the Targ's cannot be colonizers. A single family cant be a colony.

Hence, Aegon the Conqueror, not the colonizer.

Henry Tudor was a conqueror, but not a colonist.

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

There is no such thing as a non-exploitative conquest.

And look how well the Targs prepared Westeros for the end times, the Watch is now a tenth of its size before the Conquest, and they got almost all their dragons killed in a civil war. As a magical order, House Targaryen has failed rather spectacularly. In the end it may fall to random dragonseed Daenerys Waters to salvage the wreck they left.

Feudalism in general is mafia economics.  Tribute is kicked up, in return for protection from rival predators.

[Hippocras]

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not really, your just being dramatic. They'll just revert to serfdom or the like as it is in the Sunset. Smallfolk. 

They'll continue to grow olives, wear togas, eat dogs and live under pyramids. Ghiscari culture is not disappearing.

Who grows and harvests the olives? Used to be slaves. Now the way it is done needs to change.
Togas are very complicated garments to move around in, and not very easy to put on. Slaves used to carry those wearing them around and probably helped their master to get dressed. Everything about the process now needs to change.
Who raises and then slaughters the dogs? Who builds the pyramids?

I am not being dramatic, you are being overly superficial in your idea of how culture works. When the underlying social structure changes, the culture does too. Some things become no longer viable and die out. Other things get more creative from new energy.

Why do we no longer build build buildings covererd in sculptures and complicated stone masonry? Because we actually need to pay for people's labour, and the cost of labour on such buildings is too expensive. So everything about the way we build has changed because the economics behind it have changed.

I hope that clarifies. Abolishing slavery in a culture built on slavery absolutely changes every aspect of culture, in some ways small, in others, much much more.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Hippocras

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

There was not the concept of Germany before the unification of German States,

Yes there was, there was a Kingdom of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Not the same concept as the German Empire, but there was a concept of Germany.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

the Italian kingdom never existed before the the foundation of the Kingdom of Italy that happened in 1848

Yes it did, Odoacer was King of Italy in 476...

King of Italy - Wikipedia

Edited December 2, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[KingAerys_II]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes there was, there was a Kingdom of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Not the same concept as the German Empire, but there was a concept of Germany.

Yes it did, Odoacer was King of Italy in 476...

King of Italy - Wikipedia

That kingdom has nothing to do with Italy, Odoacer declared himself king, he lost power, Byzantine Empire, Long yards took control of Italy. 

There is no italic nationalism, it's just a germanic fool that declared himself king. 

The kingdom of Germany never existed

[Alester Florent]

7 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The kingdom of Germany never existed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany

Quote

That kingdom has nothing to do with Italy, Odoacer declared himself king, he lost power, Byzantine Empire, Long yards took control of Italy. 

Kings of Italy continued to be crowned after Odoacer, with only brief intermissions, until 1814.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The kingdom of Germany never existed

It did. This is a fact. There's loads to indicate the Kingdom of Germany existed. Just because there was no 'German nationalism' at the time doesn't stop it existing. Same with Italy. Are you going to argue there is no Kingdom of Scotland either since nationalism wasn't around yet?

Kingdom of Germany - Wikipedia

8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

That kingdom has nothing to do with Italy

Geographically it covers Italy and Italians made up the majority of the population. So unless you think having a foreign king stops it from being the Kingdom of Italy then it does have something to do with Italy.

[KingAerys_II]

The kingdom established by Odoacer was occupation of a barbarian who spoke a different language, and used a different alphabet. 

The goths came from Gotland, they had a runic alphabet and different laws too, it was occupation and exploitation, the barbarians used to gain wealth by sacking Roman cities, that's it, they lost power very quickly. 

Italy was occupied by Longbards, Byzantine Empire, Arabs, Normans, French, Spanish etc., they left a cultural impact on Italian culture, that ridicolous kingdom left nothing. 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

German and Italian nationalisms are fundamental if we are talking about nations, that Kingdom of Italy was founded by a barbarian that declared himself king of Italy, he had different language, alphabet, laws etc, barbarians were not able to build ships, that's why the Byzantine Empire easily conquered the Southern coast. 

Let's be honest, the kingdoms, you are speaking of, we're born at the beginning of Middle Ages, German kingdom was a coalition of states that elected the king among the noble families

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

barbarians were not able to build ships

That's obviously not true. The Saxons built plenty of ships, so did the Vikings.

[KingAerys_II]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's obviously not true. The Saxons built plenty of ships, so did the Vikings.

I was talking about the Longbards and Goths. 

I know that vikings were able to build ships

[KingAerys_II]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's obviously not true. The Saxons built plenty of ships, so did the Vikings.

The kingdom of Italy you reported was founded after the fall of the Roman Empire, Odoacer declared himself king. 

The kingdom of Italy, the nation of Italy was founded in 1848, Italy had no common language since the Roman Empire (Latin)

[Alester Florent]

12 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The kingdom of Italy, the nation of Italy was founded in 1848, Italy had no common language since the Roman Empire (Latin)

Even on this, you're wrong. The Kingdom of Italy was established in 1861.

"Nation" and "state" are not synonymous.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Alester Florent

[KingAerys_II]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Even on this, you're wrong. The Kingdom of Italy was established in 1861.

"Nation" and "state" are not synonymous.

That's right, I was wrong, but the kingdom established by Odoacer is ridiculous, it's very degrading for Italian history

[KingAerys_II]

9 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Even on this, you're wrong. The Kingdom of Italy was established in 1861.

"Nation" and "state" are not synonymous.

That kingdom was neither a nation nor a State

Edited December 2, 2023 by KingAerys_II