The possibility that Benjen Stark…

[Maegor_the_Cool]

is going to become the Night King figure of the books. I recall reading an interview (that I can no longer find so take with a grain of salt) that GRRM himself has said that he regrets not having that figure in the books. So it stands to reason that a character like the show Night’s King could appear. 
 

Perhaps it’ll be Euron messing with forces beyond his ken. Perhaps it’ll be UnJon, the Prince that Was Promsied to the Others. Maybe Bran?

 

but I think it likely it could be Benjen. Stemming from another theory I read awhile ago stating that Crastor betrayed Waymar and Benjen to the Others who were looking for someone. And by no coincidence that Waymar very much has a Stark look about him. Seemingly they are looking for Stark. Or someone that has their looks. Jon is my front runner tbh, as I think the imagery of the Tower of Joy fever dream implies the Others may have somehow observed Jon’s birth, or maybe just sensed it. But it could be they simply needed someone of the Stark bloodline.

 

It would also be a great way to take Benjen’s character as there is no way he is alive at this point IMO if we haven’t heard from him.  

[StarkTullies]

2 hours ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

I recall reading an interview (that I can no longer find so take with a grain of salt) that GRRM himself has said that he regrets not having that figure in the books.

I heard that too, but only from other people saying that they heard it.  I have not seen that interview myself.  Personally, I don't regret not having a One Other to Rule Them All, as I think that would cheapen the entire threat of the Others.  If the Others are a complex culture more than monsters who want to destroy all of humanity without motive (which I think they are), then maybe they have a "king" of sorts... but that's far different from the one-dimensional monster portrayed on the alternate telling of the story.

2 hours ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

Perhaps it’ll be Euron messing with forces beyond his ken. Perhaps it’ll be UnJon, the Prince that Was Promsied to the Others. Maybe Bran?

Of those options, Euron seems the likely candidate.  Not as the leader of the Others, but as an apocalyptic psychopath wanting to bring ruin to the world.

Jon will come back "changed", but making him do a complete 180 to inexplicably turn against humanity which he has spent his entire character arc trying to protect wouldn't make sense, and would also make all of his chapters (the second most numerous POV chapters) a giant waste of time.

Bran is not perfect, particularly in regard to Hodor, but he is mostly a loving child, and he is 10 years old and one of the purest characters in the story.  Why would he become a master villain?  Brynden Rivers might be trying to manipulate Bran for nefarious purposes, but if so then Brynden is the villain.  I've definitely considered the possibility that Bloodraven might have instigated the return of the Others after all this time.

2 hours ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

And by no coincidence that Waymar very much has a Stark look about him. Seemingly they are looking for Stark.

Did the Wildling village that the Others seemingly wiped out right before they killed Waymar also look like Starks?  Wildlings, Starks, and Royces are all descended from the First Men, but I hardly think that this is proof that the Others are looking for their Stark prince.

2 hours ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

Benjen’s character as there is no way he is alive at this point

He might be alive and hiding, maybe even in Brynden's cave although then he would be hiding from Bran too.  He might "sort of dead" and another Coldhands-like character.  He might be dead and risen as an ordinary wight that someone will eventually sadly recognize.  Or GRRM might go the realistic route: Benjen is dead and no one will ever find him and his death will never be confirmed.

Benjen becoming the leader of the Others still wouldn't make him a Night King-type character.  The Night King created and ruled them all, and Benjen at best would just be joining their ranks.

If GRRM wants a Night King-like character, why not just go with the one he already has: the Night's King?  The Night's King did not create the Others, but legend claims that he ruled over them thousands of years ago and maybe he gained immortality from that.

I would not like that option either, however.  Personally, I think Coldhands is the Night's King, and I think thousands of years of hearsay and slander and history-rewriting has altered whoever the Night's King really was.  Obviously the legend of him "giving his seed" to an Other woman can't be true for obvious reasons... if the Others bring such intense cold with them that it is difficult to even breath in their presence.  I don't even think the Others are pure villains, but they are so underdeveloped and mysterious at this point that we can't know.

[Jiriki]

Jon being the Night King is an interesting possibility. However, I have long believed that Arya was meant to slay the Night King in the end (not the dorky way they showed it in the show, with her screaming her way through a line of Others, but actually using her mad assassin skills and Needle), so does Arya kill Jon?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

2 hours ago, Jiriki said:

Jon being the Night King is an interesting possibility. However, I have long believed that Arya was meant to slay the Night King in the end (not the dorky way they showed it in the show, with her screaming her way through a line of Others, but actually using her mad assassin skills and Needle), so does Arya kill Jon?

It’s possible. Though I think Jon could possibly become the Night King at the end of the story. As in King of the Others (and maybe the North and Wildlings as well) I’m of the mind that Jon may lead them BACK North not south. That Jon becoming Night King is now the Long Night ends, not begins. The child that embodies the Song of Ice and Fire and bares the blood of Ice & Fire. The Prince that was Promised….to the Others. The whole reason they marched south. 
 

Speculation on my part, I think the show may have gotten the origin of the Others right, in that they were created by COTF magic to stop the first men and they lost control. And like the Pact that ended the War of the First Men invasion, and similar pact was made with the Others. That they would promise a child with the blood of both ice & Fire. To lead or save them. Perhaps Jon’s heritage is the key to freeing them. 
 

Just a fun little theory. Speculation.

[kissdbyfire]

Ugh I hate the clickbait headers.

Chances of Benjen becoming the Night's King? Zero. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

 

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ugh I hate the clickbait headers.

Chances of Benjen becoming the Night's King? Zero. 

I’m a master of baiting

[kissdbyfire]

16 hours ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

I recall reading an interview (that I can no longer find so take with a grain of salt) that GRRM himself has said that he regrets not having that figure in the books.

I have no recollection of this interview. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, only that I'd like to see it.

Perhaps @Ran can help us. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

 

I’m a master of baiting

Interesting. Do you really believe that? 

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have no recollection of this interview. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, only that I'd like to see it.

Perhaps @Ran can help us. 

Yeah, don't think that exists. He expressly said that a figure like that doesn't exist in the books, that the Night's King in ASoIaF is a legend of the past and isn't around any longer. I don't think he intends to change things, it's not like the Night King ended up being much of anything in the TV show... 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Interesting. Do you really believe that? 

A master baiter if you will 

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yeah, don't think that exists. He expressly said that a figure like that doesn't exist in the books, that the Night's King in ASoIaF is a legend of the past and isn't around any longer. I don't think he intends to change things, it's not like the Night King ended up being much of anything in the TV show... 

He only exists on the show, to give a face to The Others/White Walkers.

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yeah, don't think that exists. He expressly said that a figure like that doesn't exist in the books, that the Night's King in ASoIaF is a legend of the past and isn't around any longer. I don't think he intends to change things, it's not like the Night King ended up being much of anything in the TV show... 

Cheers, Ran. That's the interview I remembered.

[Ran]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

He only exists on the show, to give a face to The Others/White Walkers.

Exactly. I don't think George had a problem for it on the TV show, but it's not what he intends with the Others in the books. 

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Exactly. I don't think George had a problem for it on the TV show, but it's not what he intends with the Others in the books. 

I honestly have no idea what George is expecting from The Other in the books. He's basically ignored them in the last two novels, but I doubt they'll have a leader. He's said they have no culture, so I'm expecting them to be something like the Borg in TNG, where they have no leader, just mindless assimilation. I'm talking about the Borg before they got a Queen in First Contact, lol

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

I honestly have no idea what George is expecting from The Other in the books. He's basically ignored them in the last two novels, but I doubt they'll have a leader. He's said they have no culture, so I'm expecting them to be something like the Borg in TNG, where they have no leader, just mindless assimilation. I'm talking about the Borg before they got a Queen in First Contact, lol

I am increasingly of a view, having rewatched First Contact relatively recently, that the "Borg Queen" was nothing of the sort. She wasn't a leader, but rather a representation of the Borg hivemind, a way to put a face on the Borg for diplomatic (or assimilation) purposes, but with no actual role in governent or leadership as we would normally understand it. Perhaps an early edition of the idea later expressed much more extensively with Seven of Nine. And for the Borg, losing her was of no more importance than losing a random drone.

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I am increasingly of a view, having rewatched First Contact relatively recently, that the "Borg Queen" was nothing of the sort. She wasn't a leader, but rather a representation of the Borg hivemind, a way to put a face on the Borg for diplomatic (or assimilation) purposes, but with no actual role in governent or leadership as we would normally understand it. Perhaps an early edition of the idea later expressed much more extensively with Seven of Nine. And for the Borg, losing her was of no more importance than losing a random drone.

Every time we see The Borg Queen, she acts like a leader to the collective. The Borg were much more scary, when they were just a hive mind and the only time they ever spoke was through the hive mind. Also she's literally trying to bang Data in First Contact, something very unborg like, lol

Edited December 19, 2023 by sifth

[chrisdaw]

A Night King doesn't exist yet but Stannis will become the approximation of one. As the Blood Emperor foreshadows Euron but there's no expectation Euron will ever be called a Blood Emperor, the Night King foreshadows Stannis but Stannis won't likely ever be given or take that name/title. Nothing I've read from GRRM precludes him creating a contemporary Night King parallel.

I've never read a good idea for what Benjen is all about. His interaction was almost wholly with Jon (unless I misremember, it's been a long while) so I expect he has to relate to Jon's arc rather than Bran's. I should probably reread his part in the texts to see if I can get a feel for what's doing. Maybe he's next to take up the mantle of Aemon/Mormont as the authority figure telling Jon to abandon his family/love to carry out his duty. Something along the lines of this theme would be my best guess.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

A Night King doesn't exist yet but Stannis will become the approximation of one. As the Blood Emperor foreshadows Euron but there's no expectation Euron will ever be called a Blood Emperor, the Night King foreshadows Stannis but Stannis won't likely ever be given or take that name/title. Nothing I've read from GRRM precludes him creating a contemporary Night King parallel.

I just don't think it fits with the themes of the series or the way GRRM has constructed the story for the Others to end up being led by a single "Big Bad" in the way they were in the show. That the showrunners appropriated (if clumsily) the name of an existing but unrelated character for their "big bad" also suggests that there wasn't one in the outline story they got from GRRM.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Alester Florent

[chrisdaw]

35 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

That the showrunners appropriated (if clumsily) the name of an existing but unrelated character for their "big bad" also suggests that there wasn't one in the outline story they got from GRRM.

It makes sense when you consider they had no interested in Stannis and the heavy magic side of things and wanted to shrink the story and get out. They were also very conscious of not revealing story beats/twists, they basically cut and ran after the published material, before even.

Stannis won't necessarily lead them but he will be a linchpin, a focal point that when defeated will end the threat or turn the tide.