Are there any great houses that DON'T include some Targaryen blood?

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I wonder if @Lord of Oldstones's idea of a son of Ben Blackwood marrying a daughter of Cregan Stark does not come from the Blood of Dragons Mush game where Seth Blackwood marries Mariah Stark.

I think the MUSH marriage between Benjicot und Ellyn Baratheon is interesting, too, and in my opinion one of the likelier things from the MUSH to turn out canon. If that had happened indeed, the Blackwoods would have got some Targaryen blood via Alyssa Velaryon and Orys Baratheon.

Benjicot's first son could have been born around 140 AC, the son's first son around 162 AC (this could have been Quentyn). Then it gets a bit complicated, because we know Betha was born in 201 AC and she was the daughter of Lord Blackwood. There are also the three or four Blackwood brothers at the tourney of Ashford in 209 AC, of whom Bennifer was heir (he must have been at least 20 years old at that point). No idea whether the Lord Blackwood then was his father or older brother. I guess there are a lot of possibilities for a family tree.

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Not really, the explanation is simply because Ben found the body in the aftermath of the battle.

Do you have a source for that or is that a theory? I don't see why, if it was found in the aftermath, it would not have been returned immediately. That makes no sense at all. Benjicot and Alyn were allies and friends already then.

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Addam was able to assemble the riverlords which takes charisma (having a dragon next to you surely helps but it is not enough), I assume Addam left a big impression on the riverlords, especially on the young Benjicot (12 at the time). It makes sense to me he would have wanted a proper burial for Addam after the battle.

Yes, so why did it take 8 years then?

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Since House Velaryon was of dubious loyalty at the time (Corlys was imprisoned by Rhaenyra in KL), the best way to achieve that without risking to lose the body later on would be to sending it home to Raventree Hall.

Interesting theory, but given both Alyn and Addam's roles at the end of the Dance, I disagree that their loyalty was in question at all by then. And even it it was still in question, that was no longer true by 132. So still 6 years unaccounted for.

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

After the battle, Lady Sharis Footly got back the control of the town from the violent man who killed her husband and raped and impregnated her. She was a capable lady who reinvigorated the town in the years after the war but I don't blame her for not managing everything in the aftermath of the battle (including identifying and managing the 1,000+ corpses in and around her town).

That's fair, but your theory was Benjicot already identified it in the aftermath, in 130.

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I can see your logic but I'm still not convinced Daena had more children after Daemon Waters or there was any exil involved.

If Daena had more children, they were not in Westeros. It was not safe for Viserys  to give Daena time to gather allies in Westeros. I think you might be forgetting the secret siege, treatment of Viserys's wife who was mother of his heir, and the anger many families still nursed over the loss of their fortunes when the Rogare Bank collapsed.

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

The idea of Daena being the mother of Rohanne and/or Kiera of Tyrosh is really weird. For that to work Daena would have to be exiled in 171 AC, go to Tyrosh and immediately get pregant by the Archon. By the time Rohanne would be born Viserys I would be dead and Aegon IV on the throne and Daena could come back to KL.

Daena may actually have been exile shortly after Daemon's birth in 170. It is doubtful she was returned to the maidenvault when clearly not a maiden, and when clearly a temptation for Aegon IV. Both Baelor and his Hand Viserys would have wanted her gone right away. But even if it was not until 171, there is no reason why it would be impossible for her to get pregnant within weeks of her marriage. Both Roslin Frey and Catelyn Tully got pregnant on their wedding nights.

Furthermore, Rohanne of Tyrosh's match with Daemon Blackfyre, arranged by Aegon IV makes by far the most sense if Rohanne was Daena's daughter. Aegon IV was TRYING to boost Daemon's claim to the throne or he would not have given him Blackfyre and then legitimized him. But a match with a family completely disconnected from both Westeros and the Targaryen line would do the opposite of lining up Daemon to contend for the throne. The only conclusion is that Rohanne was NOT disconnected from the Targaryen line.

But that is not all. Not long after, Kiera of Tyrosh was married to not one, but TWO heirs to the Throne.  What on earth could make her so important to secure in a marriage alliance with that it was done TWICE, unless she descended from Daena?

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I'm sorry but a 12 or 13 years old girl giving birth to healthy twins then having at least seven other children in the span of 12 years seem really unrealistic. I know some women in the story are just there to be "baby-machine" but that's really pushing it.

I would tend to agree, except that this story actually has many examples of it. Rhaella was between 12 and 14 years old when Rhaegar was born to give one.

Rohanne of Tyrosh is said to have been born in or before 172. So Daena marrying the Archon in 170 or 171 fits perfectly well.

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

In the case of Kiera, we know nothing about her so timeline-wise the idea of her being Daena's daughter could work. But then we have to ask the question: why would the Red Dragon faction be that interested in marrying her twice ?

To keep Daena and her sisters' descendants loyal to the crown instead of pushing them to ally with Daena's bastard. The Targaryens did not want all of Tyrosh to join the Blackfyre cause.

 

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I've always put it at simply them building a coalition with a new Archon of Tyrosh (Rohanne's father's term as Archon was over by that time) to diminish the power and influence of the Blackfyre family in Tyrosh and thus reducing the threat level for another Blackfyre invasion of Westeros.

 

That makes no sense because it was Aegon IV who arranged Daemon's match with Rohanne, Aegon IV CREATED the Blackfyre threat. He was certainly not trying to reduce the threat.

Edited January 2 by Hippocras

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:01 AM, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

I´m not buying that R+L=J theory until it´s confirmed in the books. There´s better, more interesting ways to explain Jons heritage.

There isn’t. 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Hippocras That's not a theory, that's what the quote I provided said. The body was found next to Seasmoke.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

That makes no sense because it was Aegon IV who arranged Daemon's match with Rohanne, Aegon IV CREATED the Blackfyre threat. He was certainly not trying to reduce the threat.

You've probably read my comment wrong because I'm talking about Kiera and the Red dragon faction here (Daeron II and his sons, Bloodraven, ..). Aegon IV was already dead by that point.

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Hippocras That's not a theory, that's what the quote I provided said. The body was found next to Seasmoke.

You've probably read my comment wrong because I'm talking about Kiera and the Red dragon faction here (Daeron II and his sons, Bloodraven, ..). Aegon IV was already dead by that point.

No it iis just that I am failing to communicate my point. I did understand.

Yes, Daemon was Daena's son. But not her legitimate one, and not with the person she was by then married to. The Archon of Tyrosh, or any other husband, had no loyalty to Daemon, no matter what Daena's personal feelings might have been.

It is doubtful in fact that Daena had any familiar relationship with Daemon at all herself other than giving birth to him; She would not have been allowed to raise him by Baelor or Viserys, and by the time they were both dead in 172, she would already have been married off. Aegon IV could not simply bring her home to King's Landing then without potentially provoking a war with Tyrosh, or whomever else she married.

So he did the next best thing and arranged a betrothal between Daemon and his half-sister, Daena's daughter.

But then Aegon IV died and Daeron II became king. Daeron II honoured the betrothal, but also began counter-measures to neutralize the threat by making sure that Daena's husband and her legitimate descendants with him, other than Rohanne, were securely allied to the Throne. Daeron II's heir was already married by the time he became King but his heir's heir was not. Whether Valarr was even born yet or not in 184, he would already have been destined to marry one of Daena's daughters or granddaughters.

I think your confusion is that you assume that because the Archon or whoever else married Daena, he would have automatically allied with her bastard. But I doubt that is true if his own family, and not her bastard family, had its own direct alliance with the Throne. If he had a daughter in both camps, then he would have stayed neutral, not fought for Daemon. That, therefore was why House Targaryens needed the alliance.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

There isn’t. 

The only other possibility beside the R+L=J theory being true is the B+A=J theory. (Brandon and Ashara that is!) And since that theory is not very satisfying or really relevant at all, then R+L=J has to be correct. 

However, don't forget that GRRM's favorite sword in the series is Dawn. A clue that Jon will get Dawn, his ancestral sword???

Edited January 3 by KingMaekarWasHere

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

The only other possibility beside the R+L=J theory being true is the B+A=J theory. (Brandon and Ashara that is!) And since that theory is not very satisfying or really relevant at all, then R+L=J has to be correct. 

However, don't forget that GRRM's favorite sword in the series is Dawn. A clue that Jon will get Dawn, his ancestral sword???

If Jon ever gets Dawn it will be because he descends from Dyanna Dayne and all the other swordsman Daynes are dead. That makes me sad for Edric.

[SaffronLady]

4 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

If Jon ever gets Dawn it will be because he descends from Dyanna Dayne and all the other swordsman Daynes are dead. That makes me sad for Edric.

Never fear, Edric would collect it from Jon once the short night is dispelled. Edric may even be the immediately succeeding Sword of the Morning, after all, nothing says he and House Dayne can't lend the sword to a more worthy wielder.

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Never fear, Edric would collect it from Jon once the short night is dispelled. Edric may even be the immediately succeeding Sword of the Morning, after all, nothing says he and House Dayne can't lend the sword to a more worthy wielder.

Could be, but I have an entirely different theory I prefer for THE sword, the one that will be the new Lightbringer. So I tend to think that Dawn is a bit of a red herring. Beautiful and famous, but peripheral.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

10 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

The only other possibility beside the R+L=J theory being true is the B+A=J theory. (Brandon and Ashara that is!) And since that theory is not very satisfying or really relevant at all, then R+L=J has to be correct. 

 

What about N+A, Ned and Ashara ? That´s far more likely IMO.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

What about N+A, Ned and Ashara ? That´s far more likely IMO.

Ah yes. Ned never thought about it once. And thought about Lyanna when thinking about Jon. Nad never called Jon his son but instead his blood. Makes sense (it doesn’t). All the clues in the books point to Jon NOT being Ned’s son (and I’d argue strongly toward Jon being related to Lyanna)

[Hippocras]

I am doggedly certain, on theoretical grounds and for now with only the most peripheral of evidence, that Betha Blackwood, Aegon V's queen was not, in fact, entirely devoid of drops of dragon blood. Figuring out where it came from in her case is hard though.

This discussion of Addam's bones has me wondering:

How did he secure his army from the Riverlands for the Second Battle at Tumbleton? Who did he meet while flying around the Riverlands collecting fighters? What persuaded them to join him when he was at that point considered an enemy of both Rhaenyra AND the Greens?

Maybe, just maybe, he needed to make a marriage alliance and quickly. Like Robb, who needed to cross the Freys' bridge, Addam needed an army quickly and we know for a fact that the Blackwoods were part of that army.

So even if there was never any wedding there might have been an agreement for an alliance that Benjicot later hoped to see honoured. Maybe that is the reason the bones were held for 8 years instead of returned to Driftmark immediately.

 

 

 

Edited January 5 by Hippocras