What if Rhaenyra was well prepared for the Dance?

[Hippocras]

18 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

They could, if Rodrik Arryn (Rhaenyra's grandfather) was brown-haired.

I have a lot of questions about Rodrik (for which there are not yet any answers).

Daella was given a very specific list of men she could choose to marry. She was not allowed to choose just anyone, even from other powerful Houses. So I have wondered how that list was defined.

Boremund Baratheon (known royal bloodline)
Tymond Lannister (no sign yet of royal connection)
Rodrik Arryn (no sign yet of royal connection, but the high number of attempts to inter-marry with Arryns suggests they may have had one).

There is far more to be revealed regarding the Arryn and other Vale bloodline and I look forward to it. But for this thread, even if Rodrik's bloodline proves more Valyrian than people tend to assume I think your point stands. As we see from later Targs he could easily have been part Velaryon and still have had brown hair.

Edited February 2 by Hippocras

[Willam Stark]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:46 PM, The hairy bear said:

They could, if Rodrik Arryn (Rhaenyra's grandfather) was brown-haired.

Nope because blond hair is a recessive trait that is only expressed when inherited from both parents. Which means that both Rhaenyra and Laenor didn't had the dominant brown hair trait, otherwise one of them would have been brown-haired at the very least.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Nope because blond hair is a recessive trait that is only expressed when inherited from both parents. Which means that both Rhaenyra and Laenor didn't had the dominant brown hair trait, otherwise one of them would have been brown-haired at the very least.

Not necessarily in GRRM's fantasy genetics, which seem extremely inconsistent. We know that Baratheon Black Hair is dominant over Lannister Blond Hair but not necessarily how blond hair (especially non-Lannister blond) interacts with other hair colours in Westeros. In particular, Valyrian silver-blond seems surprisingly strong given that it has lasted down to Daenerys, who has only a relatively minor proportion of Valyrian/Targaryen blood .

[The hairy bear]

10 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Nope because blond hair is a recessive trait that is only expressed when inherited from both parents.

That's not even true in real life. It is very common to have blond-haired individuals with only one of the parents being blond. And it's more unusual, but far from impossible, to have to blond people produce a brown-haired child.

Af course, as Alester Florent says, Martin's genetics do not work as Mendel's.

Edited February 3 by The hairy bear

[Willam Stark]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It is very common to have blond-haired individuals with only one of the parents being blond.

I know that, but that's not the case here. Laenor and Rhaenyra are blond-haired.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

And it's more unusual, but far from impossible, to have to blond people produce a brown-haired child.

I'm skeptical, I'll look into it.

8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

In particular, Valyrian silver-blond seems surprisingly strong given that it has lasted down to Daenerys, who has only a relatively minor proportion of Valyrian/Targaryen blood .

The Valyrian Houses have been interbreeding with the Andal and FM Houses for centuries, so it's hardly surprising.

[Lord Varys]

We actually do have a description of one Strong, Lucamore. He is blond, as per his description in FaB. That means the chances are not bad that Lyonel, Larys, and Harwin (or some of them) were blond, too. It is also noteworthy that this description entered the book long after the writing process of the Viserys and Dance chapters. If George had intended to make the Strongs a family of predominantly brown-haired and brown-eyed people he could have easily done so in the description of Lucamore. He could also have added descriptions for Lyonel, Harwin and Larys. But he didn't.

Also note that Alicent's accusation is not that the boys look like Harwin Strong or Strongs specifically. Her claim is that they look 'common'. The issue is that they lack the royal Valyrian looks Alicent's children have. Harwin is put forth as the potential 'true father' because he is Rhaenyra's constant companion, not because he resembled the children.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 1/23/2024 at 3:02 PM, maesternewton said:

Let's say, Rhaenyra's 3 sons are trueborn. Somehow, she managed to have legitimate children with Laenor. Due to not having the bastard allegations, Rhaenyra's boys are not given dragon eggs but claim the older dragons like Vermithor and Sliverwing.

She also doesn't have beef with Criston Cole, and he is still her supporter.

She is the perfect heir, spends her time in King's Landing, does royal progresses, basically she is Jaehaerys with teats. When Viserys dies, she is in King's Landing. 

What would the Greens do in this scenario?

Paternity and the questions surrounding such caused damage but not in itself a deal breaker.  What to me is the disadvantage for Rhaenyra was her distance from the seat of power.  She was away while the Hightowers were in Kingslanding.  Viserys was surrounded by Hightower loyalists.  It's like a billionaire old man surrounded by relatives of a second wife who knows her children are getting less in the will.  The second wife would naturally cause problems and her father was there to back her.

[Alden Rothack]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Paternity and the questions surrounding such caused damage but not in itself a deal breaker.  What to me is the disadvantage for Rhaenyra was her distance from the seat of power.  She was away while the Hightowers were in Kingslanding.  Viserys was surrounded by Hightower loyalists.  It's like a billionaire old man surrounded by relatives of a second wife who knows her children are getting less in the will.  The second wife would naturally cause problems and her father was there to back her.

This, Alicent managed to get enough men and dragons to have a prayer of winning only because she was able to keep the Blacks from knowing long enough to get her pieces in order, without that shes fucked

[maesternewton]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:27 PM, The hairy bear said:

In other words, I don't think that Rhaenyra's boys were given dragon eggs to counter "bastard allegations". I think that it's just that Viserys I had a much more relaxed attitude towards the proliferation of dragons that his grandfather had. And even in that case, Jaehaerys himself had given his heir presumptive an egg at birth, so it's only logical that Jacaerys was given one (as he was expected, at birth, to eventually become king

Let me quote you the paragraph from F&B.

Quote

The whispering began again. Amongst the greens, it was an article of faith that the father of Rhaenyra’s sons was not her husband, Laenor, but her champion, Harwin Strong. Mushroom says as much in his Testimony and Grand Maester Mellos hints at it, whilst Septon Eustace raises the rumors only to dismiss them. Whatever the truth of these allegations, there was never any doubt that King Viserys still meant for his daughter to follow him upon the Iron Throne, and her sons to follow her in turn. By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon’s egg whilst in the cradle.

Right after Joffery's birth, the rumours began again that Rhaenyra's children were bastards. Then that's when Viserys decreed that all 3 boys being given dragon eggs. That's not a coincidence. Especially since all three were given those eggs at the same time, instead of being given them when they were immediately born, but instead when the rumours began circulating.

I honestly don't see how you can say Jaehaerys didn't the rest of his children eggs to avoid trouble, but don't see the idea that Viserys gave the Strong boys dragon eggs because of the rumours.

On 2/1/2024 at 2:27 PM, The hairy bear said:

The fact that it's not mentioned doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Aegon II could have had Sunfyre's egg placed in his craddle (he is his first rider, from an early age). We don't know. And with little Daeron, we know that he already had a dragon at 6, before he could ride it, so I'd say there's a strong likelihood that he was given an egg at birth.

Aegon II's children are mentioned as being given dragon eggs in their cradle. I don't see why that wouldn't be the case for Aegon II. Compounded with the fact that Helaena and Aemond claimed dragons instead of having their hatchlings lends credence to the idea that none of the Green kids were given dragon eggs.

 

On 2/1/2024 at 2:27 PM, The hairy bear said:

We shouldn't take for granted that Rhaenyra's sons are bastards. It's something that it's made obvious in the show, but it's much more muddy in the books (when we don't even have descriptions of Rodrik Arryn and Harwin Strong).

Perhaps in-universe it's muddy, but I think it's quite obvious to us readers that they are bastards. 

On 2/1/2024 at 2:27 PM, The hairy bear said:

Also, the marriage alliences betwen Rhaenyra and Laena's children make a lot of sense regardless of the boys status. It's not only that Laena and Rhaenyra are friends, but the fact that those marriages unite three different dragon-riding lines competing for the Iron Throne: Rhaeyra's (Viserys' chosen heir), Daemon's (Viserys' heir apparent for many years) and the Velaryons (who felt that had been cheated in the Great Council). It also is in keeping with the tradition of Targaryen kings having Velaryon wives when no sister is available. I think that politically those marriages were a no-brainer, and would have occurred even if no one had questioned the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's sons.

It really doesn't, especially when it's not one marriage but two of them. I would agree with that point if it was only Jacaerys and Baela, but it wasn't. It was also Lucerys and Rhaena. Plus Jacaerys and Lucerys are officially Velaryons, so there is no need to marry them within the house, which again shows that those betrothals were done because of the boys bastardry.

 

If anything, the marriage that would have made most sense if the Rhaenyra's boys weren't bastards, would have been Jacaerys/Helaena. 

[Alester Florent]

37 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

Especially since all three were given those eggs at the same time, instead of being given them when they were immediately born

They were all given eggs while "in the cradle". That rather suggests to me that they were indeed given them when they were born, sequentially, rather than all at the same time.

Edited February 7 by Alester Florent

[maesternewton]

6 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

They were all given eggs while "in the cradle". That rather suggests to me that they were indeed given them when they were born, sequentially, rather than all at the same time.

The text I quoted above literally implies they were given the dragon eggs soon after the rumors started and at the same time. 

[Alester Florent]

5 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

The text I quoted above literally implies they were given the dragon eggs soon after the rumors started and at the same time. 

I think there are two ways of reading it. "Whatever the truth, there was never any doubt. King Viserys did xyz" doesn't necessarily imply that he did xyz because of the rumours. Rather, one could read it as Viserys designating the Velaryon boys as his heirs by ordering the dragons' eggs placed in their cradle, irrespective of the rumours, just because it was a normal thing to do with members of the royal family.

In any case, "whilst in the cradle" is unambiguous. I guess it's not impossible that Jace was still "in the cradle" when Joffrey was born, but those Velaryon boys were big lads, and he'd surely have graduated to a proper bed by then.

[Lord Varys]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:46 PM, Alester Florent said:

In any case, "whilst in the cradle" is unambiguous. I guess it's not impossible that Jace was still "in the cradle" when Joffrey was born, but those Velaryon boys were big lads, and he'd surely have graduated to a proper bed by then.

Yeah, that makes no sense. It is also a stretch that Alicent would have loudly bitched about the boys while there was only Jace around.

With Joff as a three-year-old challenging Aemond those lads didn't spend a long time in the cradle.

Sunfyre might not have been a cradle egg dragon as he hatched on Dragonstone. 

Edited February 9 by Lord Varys