A deep dive into the Purple Wedding (could Sansa have been the poisoner?)

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Your meaning is incorrect.

I am using the dictionary meaning.  You are either misunderstanding the word or twisting it for some bizarre reason to suit your own purposes.  You can repeat this line of argument ad nauseam (and it seems you will) but it just seems rather silly.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is 100 percent borne out by the text. It is the actual, verifiable and confirmed situation in the realm. I think you are confusing "borne out by the text" with "outright stated." But there are all kinds of truths in asioaf that are not stated, starting with RLJ. If you can't accept that, then there is nothing more to say.

No, it's not.  The Tyrells are on the up in alliance with House Lannister.  They are not afraid of utter extermination at the hands of House Lannister and instead intend to play the game smartly and surpass them in influence and power.  Tywin has no intention of getting into a conflict with the Tyrells, whom he needs, let alone exterminating them.  They know this very well.  So does the reader.

You are making a wild exaggeration and rather mind-bogglingly insisting that it's fact.  That doesn't fly.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

He is unreachable. He is at the center of the head table, right next to Cersei and the Tyrells and the king and the queen, where all eyes will be focused all night long. It would be very odd for Lady Olenna to be camped out there, in plain view of everyone, rather than way down the side, out of sight from nearly the entire room.

He is not nailed to his seat.  And if he were he would still be reachable.  Particularly if someone had decided to, ooh, I don't know, slip a bit of poison in his pigeon pie, maybe?  I think someone had an idea that might have happened to someone at the wedding somehow. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But as I went on to explain, which you continue to ignore, is that the fact remains that killing Tywin does not solve anything right now. The point here is to keep House Lannister from getting the north. Only Tyrion's death and Sansa's extraction can do that.

I don't see any factual inaccuracy or misrepresentation in this statement of yours hence I had no further comment.  I don't agree with your reasoning as I've already said but I don't see any reason to argue over it.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, you haven't refuted anything. The Reach is the most powerful house, militarily and economically. It has been this way for thousands of years. They do have the largest army. They do not have any natural barriers to speak of. Tywin's command of practically the rest of the kingdom does pose a grave threat, because the Reach has no other way of defending itself. This is not rhetoric. These are facts, unambiguous, clearly stated facts right from the text. The only thing this discussion proves is that some people are better at drawing conclusions from actual facts than others.

This is funny.  You seem unable or unwilling to focus specifically on what I am saying and are just repeating yourself.  You know exactly what three statements of yours I am referring to and none of them are correct as I have pointed out to you in very clear and simple terms.  The Reach is an ally, not a target of the Lannisters so it's all very interesting to hear your geo-political analysis and your inferred wisdom that everyone in The Reach is quaking in their boots at the thought of Tywin, Destroyer of Worlds, turning on them next and unleashing Armageddon but it's not at all true.  It's quite funny seeing you push this so doggedly.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, everyone can pitch their own ideas, but not their own facts. And the vast majority of facts used to support the wine are completely imaginary. So it is not just my take, it is the only conclusion drawn from actual, verifiable facts in the text, not just words. Realize that.

Hmm...  You rely on Joffrey saying it's the pie.  Is that a verifiable fact in your view?  I hope you realise he might be wrong about this.  No, please don't give me a long boring response about how it could only possibly be in the pie.  You've done that for years.  I know you think that but the issue is other people don't.

And do you mean verifiable facts like Olenna's dread of The Reach being sown with the skulls of Tyrell infants? 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't need an "additional motivation" for Petyr's self-preservation. The embezzlement alone is enough. Nobody is going to give a rat's ass if Tyrion, without proof, claims that Petyr lied about the dagger, especially when he was not even present to hear what was actually said. And since multiple people can attest to the fact that Robert won the dagger, not Tyrion, then this whole story is laughable.

You do realise that comment was not even addressed to you, yes?  And that is was a supplementary comment in support of motivations for LF to act rather than a refutation or an argument against the motivations mentioned?  In any case, whether you are too narrow-minded to see it or too adversarial to admit it, it is indeed an additional motivation for LF to want Tyrion dead.  But, fill your boots, for a second time no less, acting as if this has been presented as the sole or principal motivation for LF to act, it seems you find it satisfying creating a strawman to attack.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is the conclusion drawn from the actual facts. We could avoid this pointless clutter if you could accept the facts as they are, not how you wished they were.

This isn't based on actual facts.  This is your conclusion drawn from your interpretation of character motivations, motivations which you have inferred as founded on an unspeakable dread within House Tyrell that they face extermination at Tywin's hands.  No such fear of extermination is borne out in the books and is a wild allegation based on the nascent Tyrell - Lannister competition; in fact it goes beyond that into pure invention.  Expounding on the geography or population density of The Reach doesn't create the dread of such apocalyptic destruction whether you think it should or wish it did.  Sorry, but there it is.

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do we know for sure that Cressen and Joffrey even got the same dose of the poison anyway? Cressen may have put in more poison to kill Melisandre based on her (presumably greater, since she's an adult woman and Joffrey is a young teenage boy) body weight. We also don't know that they were drinking the same kind of wine - the crystal might dissolve at different speeds in different wines based on alcohol content etc. 

Cressen's crystals:

Sansa's hairnet:

The hairnet crystals seem to be larger than Cressen's crystal (they are certainly larger than seeds in all the pictures of them I've seen), so theoretically they should take longer to dissolve? Not to mention, Joffrey's wine cup was probably larger than Cressen's which would make the poison more diluted.

I've seen illustrations depicted of Sansa's hairnet and the stones look large. I think that's an assumption, because the hairnet itself is described as very fine silver strands - so fine that it's weblike. Could something that delicate hold a very big crystal? Even if the crystals were set wherever silver strands intersected, I think they'd have to be quite small.

Cressens crystals are described as being like seeds. That's not very helpful if you ask me, because seeds vary so much in size. Were they super tiny like lettuce or carrot seed? Or a little larger like a radish seed? Or bigger like a pea or corn seed? Whatever size his seed crystals were, he had a dozen, and he secreted them in a hidden pocket in his sleeve.

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

His chambers seemed dim and gloomy after the brightness of the morning. With fumbling hands, the old man lit a candle and carried it to the workroom beneath the rookery stair, where his ointments, potions, and medicines stood neatly on their shelves. On the bottom shelf behind a row of salves in squat clay jars he found a vial of indigo glass, no larger than his little finger. It rattled when he shook it. Cressen blew away a layer of dust and carried it back to his table. Collapsing into his chair, he pulled the stopper and spilled out the vial's contents. A dozen crystals, no larger than seeds, rattled across the parchment he'd been reading. They shone like jewels in the candlelight, so purple that the maester found himself thinking that he had never truly seen the color before.

The chain around his throat felt very heavy. He touched one of the crystals lightly with the tip of his little finger. Such a small thing to hold the power of life and death. It was made from a certain plant that grew only on the islands of the Jade Sea, half a world away. The leaves had to be aged, and soaked in a wash of limes and sugar water and certain rare spices from the Summer Isles. Afterward they could be discarded, but the potion must be thickened with ash and allowed to crystallize. The process was slow and difficult, the necessaries costly and hard to acquire. The alchemists of Lys knew the way of it, though, and the Faceless Men of Braavos . . . and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel. All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill.

 

I was curious about the crystal making process, specifically how the potion needed to be mixed with ash and allowed to crystallize - basically through evaporation over several weeks. I was surprised to learn that this process is similar to how crystals can be created from wood ash or cremated human remains.  I also learned that it's the acid in wine that dissolves the crystals and not alcohol. I am assuming a sour red would be higher in acid than other varietals. Knowing this I would conclude that the crystals would not dissolve in pigeon pie.

Cressen was humiliated by Queen Selyce and was forced to wear Patchface's helm, but he saw a way to get poison Melisandre. He only dropped a single flake of the Strangler crystal into a half full cup of sour red and bid a toast.

Quote

And I will serve you to the last, my sweet lord, my poor lonely son, Cressen thought, for suddenly he saw the way. Ser Davos's cup was before him, still half-full of sour red. He found a hard flake of crystal in his sleeve, held it tight between thumb and forefinger as he reached for the cup. Smooth motions, deft, I must not fumble now, he prayed, and the gods were kind. In the blink of an eye, his fingers were empty. His hands had not been so steady for years, nor half so fluid. Davos saw, but no one else, he was certain. Cup in hand, he rose to his feet. "Mayhaps I have been a fool. Lady Melisandre, will you share a cup of wine with me? A cup in honor of your god, your Lord of Light? A cup to toast his power?"

Cressen quickly and smoothly dropped a flake of crystal into a half-full cup of sour red. Stood up and proposed a toast to the Lord of Light. When Melisandre agreed, he walked towards the high table. Davos saw what Cressen did and tried to stop him. Cressen shook off Davos's hand that had caught his sleeve and he spilled a drop of the wine.

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

He could feel them all watching him. Davos clutched at him as he left the bench, catching his sleeve with the fingers that Lord Stannis had shortened. "What are you doing?" he whispered.

"A thing that must be done," Maester Cressen answered, "for the sake of the realm, and the soul of my lord." He shook off Davos's hand, spilling a drop ofwine on the rushes.

She met him beneath the high table with every man's eyes upon them. But Cressen saw only her. Red silk, red eyes, the ruby red at her throat, red lips curled in a faint smile as she put her hand atop his own, around the cup. Her skin felt hot, feverish. "It is not too late to spill the wine, Maester."

"No," he whispered hoarsely. "No."

"As you will." Melisandre of Asshai took the cup from his hands and drank long and deep. There was only half a swallow of wine remaining when she offered it back to him. "And now you."

 

I didn't know it was customary to share the same cup when toasting, but the scene is very similar in that Melisandre was described as drinking long and deep just like Joffrey's first drink from his refilled chalice. The description of "long and deep" implies the motion was slow which indicates to me that it was done carefully yet deliberately. Melisandre left Cressen only a half swallow of wine - such a tiny amount - but apparently where the flake of crystal sat slowly dissolving. 

In summary, Strangler crystals can be dissolved in wine - preferably a "sour" highly acidic wine, and that it doesn't dissolve as quickly as assumed, because Melisandre drank nearly all of Cressen's wine with no lasting effects. Similarly, Joffrey drank "deep" after his chalice was refilled 3/4's full and it wasn't until he got to the bottom that he was affected.

 

 

Edited February 19 by Melifeather

[Hippocras]

21 hours ago, Melifeather said:

In summary, Strangler crystals can be dissolved in wine - preferably a "sour" highly acidic wine, and that it doesn't dissolve as quickly as assumed, because Melisandre drank nearly all of Cressen's wine with no lasting effects. Similarly, Joffrey drank "deep" after his chalice was refilled 3/4's full and it wasn't until he got to the bottom that he was affected.

I actually quite disagree with this bit. If it dissolved slowly, it would be seen. Melisandre has visions, especially ones pertaining to threats to her own life, as we saw clearly when Davos intended to kill her. She saw ahead of time with her special talents that Cressen intended to poison her. She knew what he would do. So why do you find slow dissolution the only conclusion, and disregard the likelihood of an antidote?

It seems simple to me: if you know ahead of time that there will be poison in a cup you might drink from, you take an antidote that neutralizes the poison. This is just as true of Margaery as it is of Melisandre.

Edited February 20 by Hippocras

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I actually quite disagree with this bit. If it dissolved slowly, it would be seen. Melisandre has visions, especially ones pertaining to threats to her own life, as we saw clearly when Davos intended to kill her. She saw ahead of time with her special talents that Cressen intended to poison her. She knew what he would do. So why do you find slow dissolution the only conclusion, and disregard the likelihood of an antidote?

It seems simple to me: if you know ahead of time that there will be poison in a cup you might drink from, you take an antidote that neutralizes the poison. This is just as true of Margaery as it is of Melisandre.

Melisandre said she learned early on how to look if someone wanted to harm her. That statement is open to interpretation. Could it not also mean that she’s learned to read people - their body language - which is a teachable skill. If you go back to the text when Cressen offers the toast, Melisandre studied Cressen.

Quote

 

... "Mayhaps I have been a fool. Lady Melisandre, will you share a cup of wine with me? A cup in honor of your god, your Lord of Light? A cup to toast his power?"

The red woman studied him. "If you wish."

 

 

[Hippocras]

9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Melisandre said she learned early on how to look if someone wanted to harm her. That statement is open to interpretation. Could it not also mean that she’s learned to read people - their body language - which is a teachable skill. If you go back to the text when Cressen offers the toast, Melisandre studied Cressen.

 

Except that when Davos intended to kill her she had not even seen him return from being rescued after the Blackwater yet. He was arrested when he arrived at the castle because she saw it in a vision.

There is even a quote somewhere about her visions, and how they are most accurate and clear when her life is threatened.

Edited February 20 by Hippocras

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Except that when Davos intended to kill her she had not even seen him return from being rescued after the Blackwater yet. He was arrested when he arrived at the castle because she saw it in a vision.

There is even a quote somewhere about her visions, and how they are most accurate and clear when her life is threatened.

Yes. This is true, and there are some clues that Melisandre already knew that Cressen was planning on killing her. Even Stannis says something to the effect that the reason why he wanted Cressen left sleeping is because he didn't wish him to die on his account. What I am saying is that her visions aren't always clear. Sometimes they are symbolic. So while I do agree that Melisandre knew Cressen would do something, I'm not convinced that she knew exactly how he would attempt it. She studied his face to learn if the toast was how Cressen planned to do it.

Getting back to your other assertion that a slowly dissolving crystal might be seen. True, but couldn't they be chalked up to the dregs that are often found in red wine? They too are crystals and are sometimes called "wine diamonds". 

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Except that when Davos intended to kill her she had not even seen him return from being rescued after the Blackwater yet. He was arrested when he arrived at the castle because she saw it in a vision.

There is even a quote somewhere about her visions, and how they are most accurate and clear when her life is threatened.

Here's an example of Melisandre's visions...not quite clear, a little symbolic, ultimately misinterpreted.

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

 

Melisandre thought for sure the "grey girl" was Jon's sister. Of course we all know now it was Alys Karstark and she was dressed all in black. Furthermore the Karstark colors are black and white. Even though Alys was fleeing a forced marriage, was Melisandre's vision even about her? Or was it about poor Jeyne Poole who was fake Arya, also about to enter into a forced marriage, who flees Winterfell with Theon Greyjoy, and in an early release Winds chapter is being escorted to the wall by Ser Justin Massey. Jeyne (fArya) is dressed in grey squirrel clothes. In Melisandre's vision, the grey girl turns to ash and crumbles. That doesn't bode well for poor Jeyne Poole.

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but rather remind you of what Melisandre's visions look like and her ability to interpret them correctly. I acknowledge that she had a vision that gave the impression that Cressen was a threat, but I think its unlikely that everything was spelled out clearly for her.

[Hippocras]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Here's an example of Melisandre's visions...not quite clear, a little symbolic, ultimately misinterpreted.

Melisandre thought for sure the "grey girl" was Jon's sister. Of course we all know now it was Alys Karstark and she was dressed all in black. Furthermore the Karstark colors are black and white. Even though Alys was fleeing a forced marriage, was Melisandre's vision even about her? Or was it about poor Jeyne Poole who was fake Arya, also about to enter into a forced marriage, who flees Winterfell with Theon Greyjoy, and in an early release Winds chapter is being escorted to the wall by Ser Justin Massey. Jeyne (fArya) is dressed in grey squirrel clothes. In Melisandre's vision, the grey girl turns to ash and crumbles. That doesn't bode well for poor Jeyne Poole.

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but rather remind you of what Melisandre's visions look like and her ability to interpret them correctly. I acknowledge that she had a vision that gave the impression that Cressen was a threat, but I think its unlikely that everything was spelled out clearly for her.

Yes, but in one of her chapters she directly states that her visions have more clarity when they concern threats to her, personally. So I don't think her misinterpretations with Alys Karstark and the the Tower by the Sea are much to go by. 

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, but in one of her chapters she directly states that her visions have more clarity when they concern threats to her, personally. So I don't think her misinterpretations with Alys Karstark and the the Tower by the Sea are much to go by. 

But there is room for interpretation. IMO Melisandre knew Cressen wanted her dead, but I don't think she knew exactly how it was to be done. And it's not like the Strangler is the only poison in Westeros. There's nightshade, powdered Greycap, basilisk and manticore venom, tears of Lys, Sweetsleep, Demon's dance, hemlock, wolfsbane, Widow's blood, and several kinds of mushrooms. Did Melisandre take antidotes for all of these things just to cover her bases?

Edited February 20 by Melifeather

[Hippocras]

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

But there is room for interpretation. IMO Melisandre knew Cressen wanted her dead, but I don't think she knew exactly how it was to be done. And it's not like the Strangler is the only poison in Westeros. There's nightshade, powdered Greycap, basilisk and manticore venom, tears of Lys, Sweetsleep, Demon's dance, hemlock, wolfsbane, and several kinds of mushrooms. Did Melisandre take antidotes for all of these things just to cover her bases?

No, I think her vision made it clear which poison.

The Ghost of High Heart saw a maid with purple serpents in her hair. Let's say Mel saw something similar. Even though she did not see the vision as if it were a movie, directly showing Cressen choosing strangler crystals, if she saw purple serpents and wine, I would say it is relatively easy to narrow down which poison was intended.

Edited February 20 by Hippocras

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

No, I think her vision made it clear which poison.

The Ghost of High Heart saw a maid with purple serpents in her hair. Let's say Mel saw something similar. Even though she did not see the vision as if it were a movie, directly showing Cressen choosing strangler crystals, if she saw purple serpents and wine, I would say it is relatively easy to narrow down which poison was intended.

True, the Ghost of High Heart (who many suspect was a child of the forest with the gift of green dreams) did say she saw a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, dripping with venom, but she never offers an interpretation. As for Melisandre's vision of Cressen - we'll never know, because we weren't privy to any of it on the page. You are filling in some blanks here but, if that's how you interpret it who am I to say that you are wrong? 

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

True, the Ghost of High Heart (who many suspect was a child of the forest with the gift of green dreams) did say she saw a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, dripping with venom, but she never offers an interpretation. As for Melisandre's vision of Cressen - we'll never know, because we weren't privy to any of it on the page. You are filling in some blanks here but, if that's how you interpret it who am I to say that you are wrong? 

I guess I just think the theory the strangler poison dissolves slowly is doubtful because I think noone would risk using it if it were that slow. Too much risk of being caught. Wine is translucent and I know that I have had a tiny gnat fly into my wine outside before and seen it right away. So even if there was a seed sized crystal in my wine, that I would also see. The only way the poison is useful is if it dissolves fast IMO.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I guess I just think the theory the strangler poison dissolves slowly is doubtful because I think noone would risk using it if it were that slow. Too much risk of being caught. Wine is translucent and I know that I have had a tiny gnat fly into my wine outside before and seen it right away. So even if there was a seed sized crystal in my wine, that I would also see. The only way the poison is useful is if it dissolves fast IMO.

I don't think they typically use glass goblets. More likely silver or bejeweled.

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I guess I just think the theory the strangler poison dissolves slowly is doubtful because I think noone would risk using it if it were that slow. Too much risk of being caught. Wine is translucent and I know that I have had a tiny gnat fly into my wine outside before and seen it right away. So even if there was a seed sized crystal in my wine, that I would also see. The only way the poison is useful is if it dissolves fast IMO.

I think it’s likely that this was the wedding chalice:

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

Sansa reddened. She glanced nervously at Tyrion, afraid of what he might say. This could turn as nasty as the bedding had at their own feast. But for once the dwarf filled his mouth with wine instead of words.

Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think."

 

 

[Melifeather]

Okay, this next part confirms my suspicions that the 3ft tall chalice was the one used at the wedding:

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Sansa pretended that she had not heard.

"Margaery and I shall drink deep at the feast, good father." Joffrey lifted the chalice above his head, for everyone to admire.

"The damned thing's as tall as I am," Tyrion muttered in a low voice. "Half a chalice and Joff will be falling down drunk."

 

And this...

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII

He and Sansa had been seated far to the king's right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey, which a pricklier man might have taken for a slight, given that he had been the King's Hand only a short time past. Tyrion would have been glad if there had been a hundred.

"Let the cups be filled!" Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning. The king had to use both hands to lift it. "To my wife the queen!"

"Margaery!" the hall shouted back at him. "Margaery! Margaery! To the queen!" A thousand cups rang together, and the wedding feast was well and truly begun. Tyrion Lannister drank with the rest, emptying his cup on that first toast and signaling for it to be refilled as soon as he was seated again.

 

I am delighted to have proof that Joffrey had a cupbearer and that a flagon could fill this giant, three-foot wedding chalice.

[Hippocras]

50 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I don't think they typically use glass goblets. More likely silver or bejeweled.

Neither did I with the gnat. It was an outside party with colourful cups.

 

I could see it from above before taking a sip. And as the chalice would have been wider at the top than the cup I had, I genuinely think they would see a seed in there too.

Edited February 20 by Hippocras

[Melifeather]

A three-foot tall chalice that Tyrion mutters is taller than he is... question - when Joffrey upended it over Tyrion's head, did he let go of the chalice let it fall to the ground?

It's not clear how the chalice ended up on the floor, but when Joffrey demanded Tyrion pick it up, he kicked it away from Tyrion's hands. After Tyrion retrieved it, he takes the flagon from (I'm assuming) Joffrey's cupbearer, fills it 3/4's full, and then wonders if he's going to get another wine bath. Does this sound like the opportune time for Tyrion to drop the Strangler into the chalice? If you've only got one shot, you don't take it when you think it's just going to get dumped on your head again. I think this passage clears Tyrion as a suspect. Added to that, the chalice is as tall or taller than Tyrion. When it was on the table the rim would have been way over Tyrion's head. If Tyrion dropped the Strangler into the chalice, it would have had to be done during when he retrieved the chalice off the floor or when he refilled it.

Refilling it must have been a challenge too. How did Tyrion hold the chalice and refill it and drop in the Strangler? Did he place the chalice on the floor while he poured the wine? At first I thought he placed the empty cup on the table and then filled it, but that would have been physically impossible for someone so short. No, Tyrion retrieved the cup from under the table. Joffrey demands that he refill it. Tyrion takes the flagon from the cupbearer and fills the chalice 3/4 full. Joffrey takes the chalice, drinks deep - as deep as someone can when they're tipping a 3-foot high chalice 3/4's full, and places it upon the table in front of Tyrion. It's not until Joffrey decides to shove his hand into Tyrion's pie that he tries to finish the wine and it pours down his face.

If Joffrey was the target and the poison was in the pie, why was it Tyrion's piece that had it?

I remain firmly convinced that Joffrey was the target, that the Strangler was dropped in the wine flagon by his cupbearer, and not in the pie. I also suspect that Margaery understood when the Strangler would be placed in the wine and that is why she was calling Joffrey back to his seat for a toast. She too would not want the wine wasted on top of Tyrion's head.

Edited February 20 by Melifeather

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Neither did I with the gnat. It was an outside party with colourful cups.

 

I could see it from above before taking a sip. And as the chalice would have been wider at the top than the cup I had, I genuinely think they would see a seed in there too.

But would you see anything at the bottom of a three foot tall golden chalice filled with red wine? I think that was actually the point of Mace Tyrell having such a large thing constructed. The chalice itself was deliberately made in order to disguise the poison.

[Hippocras]

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

But would you see anything at the bottom of a three foot tall golden chalice filled with red wine? I think that was actually the point of Mace Tyrell having such a large thing constructed. The chalice itself was deliberately made in order to disguise the poison.

Alright well, interpretation in absence of info I guess. But if i knew there was poison in a cup I would not depend on intangibles like bottom settling or dissolution speed. I would just not drink, because mixing and spread could not be predicted or controled.

Yet I do agree that nothing has been directly said about either an antidote or dissolution time so it is up to us to pick our preferred idea.

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Alright well, interpretation in absence of info I guess. But if i knew there was poison in a cup I would not depend on intangibles like bottom settling or dissolution speed. I would just not drink, because mixing and spread could not be predicted or controled.

Yet I do agree that nothing has been directly said about either an antidote or dissolution time so it is up to us to pick our preferred idea.

Let's pretend we're the Tyrels for a moment and that we did plot Joffrey's poisoning. How would the preparations go?

The 3-ft golden chalice with the seven bejeweled sides is an over-the-top gaudy wedding gift that was sure to capture a teenaged king's attention and likely insure that he'd want to drink from it - actually, he probably was obliged to drink from it since it was a gift intended to be used during the wedding feast.

Its sheer size offers concealment in more than one way. When placed in front of you, you cannot see down inside. The solid gold would only shade the wine inside from light. It also insures that a full flagon is needed to fill it. If Joff managed to finish the first cup, he'd be sure to be intoxicated and less likely to notice anything amiss.

Having Margaery share it - deliberately seen drinking from the same cup makes it appear safe. Surely the Tyrells wouldn't use a shared cup to poison Joffrey! That is why timing is so important. Margaery needed to be seen drinking from the same cup, but then a plan needed to be in place for when the cupbearer put the poison in: the toasts. They were waiting until the customary time to toast the bride and groom.

Quote

"My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us."