Do you agree that Walder Frey is Near Pure Evil?

[boltons are sick]

For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil and they need to have many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and/or excuses for their actions. Often times Inconsistently Heinous characters can even be morally ambiguous heroes in the stories they are depicted, but they also do some bad things along the way.

Walder Frey is listed on the Near Pure Evil wiki. Here is what he has done:

• He organizes the Red Wedding which kills Robb and Catelyn Stark along with 3500 other people to take revenge on Robb Stark for not honoring his vows to marry one of his daughters. Many of Robb's soldiers outside the castle are burned alive in their tents while they are drunk which adds to the brutality of the act.
  • This is considered to be one of the biggest acts of treachery and dishonesty in Westerosi history because the guest right is considered to be one of the most sacred things in most Westerosi cultures.
• When his mentally challenged grandson Jinglebell is taken captive by Catelyn Stark who threatens to kill him should Walder refuse to spare Robb Stark's life, Walder still refuses to spare Robb and throws his grandson's life away.
• After Robb and Catelyn are killed, Walder allows his kin to shows disrespect to their corpses. After he had Robb's direwolf Grey Wind killed, he let the direwolf's head be attached to Robb's body before parading him, and also lets his kin throw Catelyn's corpse into the river Green Fork in a mockery of House Tully's funeral customs.
• Although he originally meant for Catelyn to be taken hostage, along with her brother, the groom Edmure Tully, the woman's madness caused one of his sons, Ser Raymund, to cut her throat to end it (possibly out of pity or simply to avoid dealing with an insane hostage, or both). It is unclear if Walder encouraged this.
• Him being offended over Robb Stark not honoring his vows to marry a female Frey is a weak excuse for orchestrating the Red Wedding because it's a petty reason for revenge and none of the other people who were killed had anything to do with Robb's decision.
• While Walder Frey had the protection of Tywin Lannister when he enacted the Red Wedding, from what is shown, he was the one who came up with the idea for the Red Wedding and Tywin simply agreed to protect him and reward him if he did it. Even Tywin's abused son Tyrion Lannister says that he has no doubt that Walder was the one who came up with the idea for the Redding Wedding when he confronts Tywin for his own part in it.
• While ASOIAF has a high heinous standard, Walder Frey still stands out because he doesn't have as many resources as some of the other characters in the story and because the Red Wedding is a taboo even in Westerosi society due to the combination of guest right violation and treachery.
  • He also stands out because the Red Wedding gives him a body count of over 3500 people and because he allows Catelyn to kill his own grandson Jinglebell and refuses to spare Robb Stark to save him.

And here is the reason why he can't qualify as Pure Evil:

• Unlike his show counterpart, he appears to care about some members of his family. After the Battle on the Green Ford, he arranges a ransom with Tywin Lannister for all the Frey captives at Harrenhal, paying with chests of gold for every single one of them. While he doesn't care about his grandson Jinglebell because he is mentally challenged and he doesn't save him when Catelyn threatens to slit his throat, Merett Frey mentions in his own thoughts in one chapter that Walder Frey takes care of his own even when they anger and disappoint him and this applies even to those members of his family whose names he can't remember. He also pays a ransom for Petyr Frey when the brotherhood without banners kidnap him. It is also mentioned that Walder drilled the idea inside his heir's head Stevron Frey that "blood is blood" and to take care of his own. Walder also reacts in a slightly disturbed way when Roose Bolton subtly threatens him that two of his grandsons are captives of Ramsay Snow and he uses nice words to describe one of his daughters Roslin, even calling her a "flower".

So, do you agree with the decision to list Walder Frey as Near Pure Evil or not?

[Craving Peaches]

Do you agree that we should form our own judgements from reading the text rather than a wiki?

[astarkchoice]

Nope

Bar the white walkers(maybe) the great thing about grmms series is no.one really thinks ofnthemselves as evil. Each character does things based on their pov

[Lady Ella]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope

Bar the white walkers(maybe) the great thing about grmms series is no.one really thinks ofnthemselves as evil. Each character does things based on their pov

I agree with this. GRRM does have a few characters who don't appear to have any redeeming qualities, such as Gregor Clegane, but mostly his characters all have their own reasons for doing what they do.

The Freys are frustrated for two reasons:

1. They're too powerful to be vassals of the Tullys and have been chafing under their rule for three centuries. If I recall correctly, according to Fire and Blood, the Freys can field more men than the Tullys. This is Aegon the Conqueror's fault for randomly picking the Tullys to be overlords of the riverlands without considering whether they're actually powerful enough.

2. The Freys are a relatively young house and are always looked down on by the older houses.

These two things must be really frustrating. When Robb broke the marriage pact, he rubbed salt in both of those wounds. Firstly, he confirmed his preference for the Tullys and dashed the Freys' hopes of maybe being able to influence the next king to name them Lords Paramount of the riverlands. Secondly, it was yet another example of one of the older houes snubbing them. And Robb does think the Westerlings are better blood than the Freys - he admits as much to Catelyn - so this isn't just Walder being paranoid.

Of course, none of that justifies Walder's actions, but it does give him motivation other than just being evil.

[Alester Florent]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do you agree that we should form our own judgements from reading the text rather than a wiki?

No. Ever since the lobotomy, I have found myself entirely reliant on wikis for making moral decisions.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Lady Ella said:

I agree with this. GRRM does have a few characters who don't appear to have any redeeming qualities, such as Gregor Clegane, but mostly his characters all have their own reasons for doing what they do.

 

Gregor Clegane has redeeming features! He has headaches! It's tragic!

That's why he's only Near Pure Evil on the only scale that matters (VillainsWiki).

[kissdbyfire]

NO COMMENT. 

[Craving Peaches]

10 hours ago, Lady Ella said:

no redeeming qualities, such as Gregor Clegane

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Gregor Clegane has redeeming features! He has headaches! It's tragic!

That's why he's only Near Pure Evil on the only scale that matters (VillainsWiki).

Actually, Gregor is a long-suffering opiate addict betrayed by Westeros's lack of psychiatric care.

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

No. Ever since the lobotomy, I have found myself entirely reliant on wikis for making moral decisions.

I find myself using wheel of names (Wheel of Names | Random name picker) to pick randomly because I can't face making my own decisions anymore.

[Northern Sword]

Pure Evil. No.

Ol' Walder is a greedy opportunist with little in the way of morals or loyalty.

But pure evil is not accurate imo. The Red Wedding was a heinous crime. Against all rules of society. It wasn't done from evil per se, or just for the sake of doing it, but for opportunistic advancement.

Yet, evil or not. A stiff consequence for the RW will surely follow at some point. Clearly the North will not let it go. But even the Riverlords must be appalled. Frey dishonor may rub off on them. Imagine being a neighboring Lord, you'd be so pissed off at this guy. 

 

[Fencer]

I kind of feel sick with myself for trying to make a legitimate comment in one of these pointless threads, but...

On 2/4/2024 at 12:08 PM, astarkchoice said:

Bar the white walkers(maybe) the great thing about grmms series is no.one really thinks ofnthemselves as evil. Each character does things based on their pov

Here's the thing.  REAL characters--which GRRM I think does a generally respectable job creating--rarely, if ever, think of themselves as evil.  Even the greatest "evil" individuals in human history thought they were engaging in legitimate or even "good" activities.

Since I'm already upset at myself for replying to this thread, I'll take the next step and bring up Hitler.  Even the man generally considered history's greatest monster didn't wake up every morning and think "how will be evil today?"  Does history judge these people as evil?  Absolutely.  Does it take a degree of metal disruption and delusion to convince ones-self that horrible crimes are justified?  Almost certainly.

But, whenever we encounter a character who is evil for the sake of evil--Megatron, Cobra Commander, boltons are sick, all those idiot rulers from Hunger Games--the only thing it does for me is break the quality of the story being had, and likely means that the author is a few levels below par.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 2/4/2024 at 11:50 AM, boltons are sick said:

So, do you agree with the decision to list Walder Frey as Near Pure Evil or not?

No. I do not and it's pretty stupid to do so.

[Alden Rothack]

the problem with Walder Frey is that he is completely immoral in the in universe standard

[astarkchoice]

23 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

the problem with Walder Frey is that he is completely immoral in the in universe standard

Yes but hes well developed.

His evil doesnt come from.just evil for evils sake  hes a bitter old creep who sick of hos beloved family being slighted is desperate for respect and vengeful for any imagined disresepect. 

Hes old enough to see kingd come and go thus picks his sides very carefully in any conflict with self interest alone guiding his hand!

[Alden Rothack]

54 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes but hes well developed.

His evil doesnt come from.just evil for evils sake  hes a bitter old creep who sick of hos beloved family being slighted is desperate for respect and vengeful for any imagined disresepect. 

Hes old enough to see kingd come and go thus picks his sides very carefully in any conflict with self interest alone guiding his hand!

Yes and the reputation of his house takes a nose dive under his stewardship even before the Red Wedding

compare the fact that they grew substantially in power and influence during the century prior to his birth to the fact that they are less popular than the Targ loyalists during WO5K era.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Yes and the reputation of his house takes a nose dive under his stewardship even before the Red Wedding

compare the fact that they grew substantially in power and influence during the century prior to his birth to the fact that they are less popular than the Targ loyalists during WO5K era.

Yep

His long life  , breeding like a rabbit and weasly behavior  are to blame. Its a vicious downward spiral

The 'lateness' to the trident and the fact they are looked a l ittle down on anyway due to making cash by  toll fees could be overlooked.

But its his weasly self serving attitue thats rubbed off on his whole brood. We hear from the reeds story that theyd a rep a bullies vs poor howland already. The more he breeds the more useless a marriage alliance to the freys becomes as theres so many hence why hes trouble getting the kids married off and even his brides have been lesser and lesser houses of late. He should know all this yet takes it personaly 

also as we see walders self serving mindset has rubbed off (esp in the brats at winterfell) and the twins is a nest of vipers ready to kinslay or cuckold  at the drop of a hat!!

 

Hes  a man whos pissed noone attends his weddings now and missed  thats because hes had so many of them!

 

That said he is well rounded a character enough that he begrudgingly  trys to look after his massive brood and their rep. From expensive jousting stuff for promising freys to freys with brain damage (jinglebell and the one with head trauma from jousts)  and agreeing a silver dowry for his huge grandchild! Keeping soo many in the min lifestyle  accorded a lord or lady in that time must be hugely expensive for him!! Shit the cost of nameday gifts alone !!!

Edited February 7 by astarkchoice

[Alester Florent]

8 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yep

His long life  , breeding like a rabbit and weasly behavior  are to blame. Its a vicious downward spiral

The 'lateness' to the trident and the fact they are looked a l ittle down on anyway due to making cash by  toll fees could be overlooked.

But its his weasly self serving attitue thats rubbed off on his whole brood. We hear from the reeds story that theyd a rep a bullies vs poor howland already. The more he breeds the more useless a marriage alliance to the freys becomes as theres so many hence why hes trouble getting the kids married off and even his brides have been lesser and lesser houses of late. He should know all this yet takes it personaly 

also as we see walders self serving mindset has rubbed off (esp in the brats at winterfell) and the twins is a nest of vipers ready to kinslay or cuckold  at the drop of a hat!!

Wasn't there an implication that the older Freys - Walder's elder sons and some of their sons - still place a lot of value on family because Walder has drilled it into them, but some of the younger ones, especially those with a fighting chance of succeeding to the Twins, have gone off the rails a bit?

Aenys and Hosteen seem genuinely angry about Wyman's apparent murder of their kinsmen. It's possible to see some trace of familial feeling in Merrett, I think. Emmon and Cleos are a bit different because they're functionally Lannisters, but they're loyal to their adopted family and Cleos is even kind of honourable. Stevron is alright.

Edited February 7 by Alester Florent

[astarkchoice]

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Wasn't there an implication that the older Freys - Walder's elder sons and some of their sons - still place a lot of value on family because Walder has drilled it into them, but some of the younger ones, especially those with a fighting chance of succeeding to the Twins, have gone off the rails a bit?

Aenys and Hosteen seem genuinely angry about Wyman's apparent murder of their kinsmen. It's possible to see some trace of familial feeling in Merrett, I think. Emmon and Cleos are a bit different because they're functionally Lannisters, but they're loyal to their adopted family and Cleos is even kind of honourable. Stevron is alright.

Yes 

Its likely as the twins got more and more crowded that value dropped as the younger ones got born into and increasingly competitive enviroment ..the older ones have more loyalty to family as they were brought up back when the twins wasnt as packed to the gills and cutthroat

[Alden Rothack]

18 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yep

His long life  , breeding like a rabbit and weasly behavior  are to blame. Its a vicious downward spiral

The 'lateness' to the trident and the fact they are looked a l ittle down on anyway due to making cash by  toll fees could be overlooked.

But its his weasly self serving attitue thats rubbed off on his whole brood. We hear from the reeds story that theyd a rep a bullies vs poor howland already. The more he breeds the more useless a marriage alliance to the freys becomes as theres so many hence why hes trouble getting the kids married off and even his brides have been lesser and lesser houses of late. He should know all this yet takes it personaly 

also as we see walders self serving mindset has rubbed off (esp in the brats at winterfell) and the twins is a nest of vipers ready to kinslay or cuckold  at the drop of a hat!!

 

Hes  a man whos pissed noone attends his weddings now and missed  thats because hes had so many of them!

 

That said he is well rounded a character enough that he begrudgingly  trys to look after his massive brood and their rep. From expensive jousting stuff for promising freys to freys with brain damage (jinglebell and the one with head trauma from jousts)  and agreeing a silver dowry for his huge grandchild! Keeping soo many in the min lifestyle  accorded a lord or lady in that time must be hugely expensive for him!! Shit the cost of nameday gifts alone !!!

Putting aside that silver for a dowry is really really cheap for someone marrying a lord of Rooses standing the general point stands, we can even see the decline in Walders own marriages, the first couple were from important families.

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Putting aside that silver for a dowry is really really cheap for someone marrying a lord of Rooses standing the general point stands, we can even see the decline in Walders own marriages, the first couple were from important families.

Silver isnt cheap in any era ..esp a persons weight in it...and esp if said person is 'big boned' 

[Alden Rothack]

19 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Silver isnt cheap in any era ..esp a persons weight in it...and esp if said person is 'big boned' 

It is for nobility and if your marrying up as Fat Walda is then its even important to have an impressive dowry

300lbs of silver might be worth as much as the fifty dragons Tyrion tipped each dwarf for Joffrey's show