What is House Dayne's Religion?

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, Potsk said:

I know. That's what I said. "He's allowed to," but he didn't do it properly. He didn't make them swear the vows (to the Seven) that knights usually swear. In the R'hllor religion knighthood is probably not recognized, and in Westeros knighthood is an institution of the Seven religion. That puts the brotherhood's knights in a sort of limbo.

There are no conditions attached for a knight to make a knight. None, unless you think one can revoke a knighthood for not being a follower of the seven. There are plenty of examples to counter that. 
 

Glendon ball was knighted in a whore house by a poor knight,, pretty much the opposite of being honored in a religious ceremony. Even the lords at whitewalls granted him permission to joust when someone confirmed it. They treated him like the literal whoreson he was but he was still acknowledged a knight. 

a common joke here is “what do you call a doctor / lawyer who finished at the bottom of their class?”
A doctor / lawyer

or channeling pirates:

you’re without a doubt the worst knight I’ve ever heard of

ah but you called me a knight

[Potsk]

13 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Glendon ball was knighted in a whore house by a poor knight

That doesn't mean the usual protocol wasn't done.

[Bendric Dayne]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:29 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Any knight can make a knight. mentioned several times in book by a variety of noble characters and confirmed in grrm in the SSMs. Beric actually gets criticized by clegane for knighting the bwb bc they haven’t earned it.

Aha so Clegane is upset that Beric knighted men he doesn't deem worthy of knighthood. Which implies that the knighting of the bwb is legit. Otherwise, Clegane would not have gotten upset over that. Instead he would have likely mocked Beric for thinking he actually knighted those men, but that's not what happens. 

Either way... as far as the discussion on House Dayne goes, I think finding examples of knights who don't follow the religion of the Seven and concluding that therefore House Dayne don't have to follow the Seven, is a bit of a stretch (I'm not saying that you are making that conclusion btw). Knighthood is such a big deal for the Daynes that it would make sense for them to follow the religion for which knighthood is likewise a big deal. Although, finding these examples of knights who don't follow the Seven, does at least open the door for these discussions to be had. 

[Bendric Dayne]

On 2/17/2024 at 2:49 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Of course you can also be knighted on the battlefield regardless of your religion. But when a house has several knights over the course of a millennium, this is a strong hint that they follow the Seven.

Was the first Sword of the Morning around before the religion of the Seven came to Westeros? If so, the Daynes could have been into knighthood regardless of religion. The Daynes are First Men so we know for sure that they were around before the religion of the Seven. The question is whether or not the first Sword of the Morning was around before or after the religion of the Seven. If he was around before, was he still called a 'Ser'? I genuinely don't remember the timeline here so it could be nothing, but still interesting. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Was the first Sword of the Morning around before the religion of the Seven came to Westeros? If so, the Daynes could have been into knighthood regardless of religion. The Daynes are First Men so we know for sure that they were around before the religion of the Seven. The question is whether or not the first Sword of the Morning was around before or after the religion of the Seven. If he was around before, was he still called a 'Ser'? I genuinely don't remember the timeline here so it could be nothing, but still interesting. 

The first known Sword of the Morning is Ser Davos Dayne, who lived a long time after the coming of the Andals.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The first known Sword of the Morning is Ser Davos Dayne, who lived a long time after the coming of the Andals.

Right but Dawn and the House itself are 10K years old, and the sword was created by the founder of the house.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right but Dawn and the House itself are 10K years old, and the sword was created by the founder of the house.

Sure, but since we don't know any of the earlier wielders of Dawn, that doesn't help us to answer the question whether there were Dayne knights before the coming of the Andals, though.

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Sure, but since we don't know any of the earlier wielders of Dawn, that doesn't help us to answer the question whether there were Dayne knights before the coming of the Andals, though.

So the first known SotM we know if isn't really useful in that context then. We know the most prominent SotM -- Ser Arthur -- was indeed a knight and dubbed Jaime in a sept in the super formal way.The best we can assume is that Arthur Dayne's practice is a continuation of what the Andals introduced, not that there were no "knights" of House Dayne before the Andals. We simply lack the information to compare, but someone like Maester Luwin might say it's a distinction without a difference since Dawn was probably, but not definitely, handled by the best warrior in House Dayne before knighthood came in a way that isn't too different from House Corbray and Lady Forlorn.

[Potsk]

I am reminded of the theory that the Daynes are descendants of the GEOTD (explaining their recurring trait of purple eyes and silver hair). If so it is plausible that they worshiped R'hllor ten thousand years ago.

[Aebram]

What do we know (and by "we," I mean "people with much more expertise than me" (not that that's a high bar)) about the actual history of knighthood here on Earth?

I seem to recall a documentary stating that the institution evolved as an extension of feudal society, based on the idea that lords (landowners) had some responsibility to protect their subjects, as well as to fight for their own liege when called to serve. If that's correct, then perhaps knighthood in Westeros followed a similar course.

[Potsk]

9 hours ago, Aebram said:

What do we know (and by "we," I mean "people with much more expertise than me" (not that that's a high bar)) about the actual history of knighthood here on Earth?

I seem to recall a documentary stating that the institution evolved as an extension of feudal society, based on the idea that lords (landowners) had some responsibility to protect their subjects, as well as to fight for their own liege when called to serve. If that's correct, then perhaps knighthood in Westeros followed a similar course.

Knighthood as we know it evolved over the course of the 8th to 12th centuries, yes

However the medieval age of Westeros seems to encompass almost its entire history... when do we consider it to begin? The Andal invasion? It's rather blurry because the history of the First Men houses is presented as if they always had medieval feudal society.

Edited February 21 by Potsk

[Gilbert Green]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:30 PM, Aebram said:

Real-life Christian missionaries sometimes did similar things; they would introduce Christian concepts to an indigenous community by telling them things like, "Oh, your goddess Oxun of the River is really Mary, mother of Jesus," etc.

This sounds more like a post-modern academic, projecting his own beliefs and attitudes onto an ancient missionary.

It seems to be very unlikely that an ancient missionary would actually think this way.

There are much better explanations for why once-pagan practices survived in Christian communities.

But perhaps you have an example of a modern missionary in mind.

[Aebram]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

This sounds more like a post-modern academic, projecting his own beliefs and attitudes onto an ancient missionary.

It seems to be very unlikely that an ancient missionary would actually think this way.

There are much better explanations for why once-pagan practices survived in Christian communities.

But perhaps you have an example of a modern missionary in mind.

I don't recall where I first heard this idea. But when I think about it, the word "syncretic" comes to mind. Wikipedia says that "Syncretism is the practice of combining different beliefs and various schools of thought. Syncretism involves the merging or assimilation of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths."

The article also states that:

Quote

Some religious movements have embraced overt syncretism, such as the case of melding Shintō beliefs into Buddhism or the amalgamation of Germanic and Celtic pagan views into Christianity during its spread into Gaul, Ireland, Britain, Germany and Scandinavia. In later times, Christian missionaries in North America identified Manitou, the spiritual and fundamental life force in the traditional beliefs of the Algonquian groups, with the God of Christianity. Similar identifications were made by missionaries at other locations in the Americas and Africa who encountered a local belief in a Supreme God or Supreme Spirit of some kind.

Of course Wikipedia may not be the most authoritative source ...

[Gilbert Green]

On 2/21/2024 at 6:24 PM, Aebram said:

I don't recall where I first heard this idea. But when I think about it, the word "syncretic" comes to mind. Wikipedia says that "Syncretism is the practice of combining different beliefs and various schools of thought. Syncretism involves the merging or assimilation of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths."

The article also states that:

Of course Wikipedia may not be the most authoritative source ...

Syncretism is a vague word, of which academics are fond, but which I don't find particularly useful.  But I was not objecting to it.  I was responding to the concrete example that you gave in plain English.  It strikes me as extraordinarily unlikely that a missionary would think or talk that way.  And of course, a missionary would not use the word "syncretism" either, because he is a missionary, and not an academic.

Wikipedia cites the example of missionaries who identified "Manitou" with "God".  I would not call that "syncretism" either.  It merely represents the missionary's idea that God is not his local god, but the God of the Whole Universe, who was already present before the missionary arrived.  The missionary is not trying to promote "syncretism", but merely to use a local word for "God".

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 2/16/2024 at 4:45 PM, Bendric Dayne said:

I think this is an interesting question because they could almost worship any of the religions in Westeros. 

1. The Lord of Light - It could be that House Dayne follow the Lord of Light. What are the origins of that religion and what are the origins of House Dayne? We know House Dayne have been in Westeros for a very long time, but we don't know from where they came. Many people speculate that they were Valyrian or shared a common ancestor with Valyrians. If true, this could suggest they came to Westeros with dragons. One of the theories out there suggests that they shared a common ancestor with the Valyrians, came to Westeros with dragons and one of their members was the Last Hero who ended the long night. And that Last Hero then founded House Dayne. It's interesting because this would make them connected to the prophecy of Azor Ahai, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a prophecy that comes from the religion of the Lord of Light. Furthermore, Ned Dayne is chosen by Beric Dondarrion to be his squire, and Beric, along with Thoros of Myr, is probably the character that has to do the most with that religion (aside from Melisandre) in all of Westeros. Did he choose Ned Dayne as his squire because the Daynes share his religion? Did Beric convert to this religion when he got betrothed to Allyria? If the Daynes were not of this religion, did Beric convert Ned (who is the Lord of the Daynes so maybe the Daynes switch religions at this point of the story at the command of their Lord)? Does this perhaps ally the Daynes to Stannis, or perhaps to Daenerys if they believe her to be the real Azor Ahai? It's interesting how the Daynes (particularly Arthur) were connected with Rhaegar who was obsessed with prophecy. If the Daynes were strong believers in the Lord of Light and the prophecy of Azor Ahai, how much could they have influenced Rhaegar who was himself obsessed with prohecies? Seems like they could have exchanged notes and reached certain conclusions together. 

2. The Seven - This one is pretty straightforward, but yeah basically it's possible they converted to the religion of the Seven whenever it was that everyone converted. I think the Martel's worship the Seven if I'm not mistaken, and the Martel's are the Dayne's liege lords which makes it likely that the Dayne's could have been forced to convert at some point. I'm assuming some lords in different times have different levels of tolerance for that sort of stuff, but yeah given that it is also like the default religion in Westeros, it is very possible that the Dayne's worship the Seven. Which still begs the question, who did they worship before that?

3. The Old Gods - This is the least likely possibility, but it is also my favorite possibility. Dayne's are classified as 'First Men' and if I'm not mistaken, all 'First Men' worshipped the Old Gods until the Andals came. Of course the Dayne's might just fall under that classification of 'First Men' simply because they have been in Westeros for a very long time and not because they actually share any characteristics with the 'First Men'. Like how a person can be classified as 'Italian' because they have an Italian last name, but might not be Italian in any way that actually matters. I.e. they don't have any Italian characteristics and don't do anything from that culture, but are classified in that group because of an ancestor or something like that. There's obviously nothing wrong with that and the classification is still valid, but it would be wrong to assume that they practice the dominant religion in Italy just because they are classified as Italian. Idk if that made sense, but either way, what I'm trying to say is that we can't assume the Dayne's religion based on their classification as 'First Men'. All that said, we just don't know what their classification as 'First Men' entails, do they only have that classification because they have been in Westeros for a very long time, or do they also have more characteristics of the 'First Men'? I think it would be cool if they worshipped the Old Gods and maybe had a Weirwood in Starfall, growing on the stone that fell from the sky. It would make their connections to Ned Stark even stronger and make more sense. And it would be cool if they had Valyrian features and perhaps even Valyrian powers, as well as 'First Men' customs and maybe even powers (like greenseeing?), all while being a House that lives in Dorne, a place far removed from the North, with different customs from the rest of Westeros. It would make the Dayne's like the most diverse House with connections to all the races in Westeros, which would explain their mysterious powers. 

Anyways, that's all from my blabbering. Really just throwing all my raw thoughts out there so sorry if this post isn't all that organized or whatever. What religion does everyone consider the Dayne's follow?

You forgot about the First Gods , Those gods that the First Men followed before coming to Westeros .