What region of Westeros will give the most difficulty to Daenerys ?

[SeanF]

@YeniAy_OttomanSteppe peoples, like Dothraki, would be well-used to freezing cold.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

@YeniAy_OttomanSteppe peoples, like Dothraki, would be well-used to freezing cold.

Turks are people of steppe origin, you may know. I'm a Turk. Central Asia is a truly harsh and challenging geography. Even living in cold places like Siberia, and we hate extreme heat. In this way we are similar to the northerners of Westeros. However, the Central Asian steppes and the Dothraki steppes do not have the same seasonal characteristics. This is the point you are missing.

The regions of Essos, except the northern part, are regions where warm climates prevail, places where snow and snow cold do not prevail... You can even understand this from their clothes. This region is deadly for these people who are not used to the cold and snow of the north.

[House Cambodia]

ADWD Daenerys X  "...her linen undertunic had never been made to withstand the hot days and cold nights of the Dothraki sea."

WOIAF    "Even the snowcapped northernmost peaks (known as Krazaaj Zasqa or White Mountains in the Dothraki tongue), where the cold winds come howling off the Shivering Sea winter and summer..." implies they are not unfamiliar

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Turks are people of steppe origin, you may know. I'm a Turk. Central Asia is a truly harsh and challenging geography. Even living in cold places like Siberia, and we hate extreme heat. In this way we are similar to the northerners of Westeros. However, the Central Asian steppes and the Dothraki steppes do not have the same seasonal characteristics. This is the point you are missing.

The regions of Essos, except the northern part, are regions where warm climates prevail, places where snow and snow cold do not prevail... You can even understand this from their clothes. This region is deadly for these people who are not used to the cold and snow of the north.

Parts of the Dothraki Sea abut the Shivering Sea, and also @House Cambodia’s points.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

42 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Parts of the Dothraki Sea abut the Shivering Sea, and also @House Cambodia’s points.

 

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

implies they are not unfamiliar

The fact that a region of the Dothraki Sea borders the northern sea does not mean that they live and get used to that snowy and ice-filled cold. There is no information that that part is snowed anyway. Think of it like the Braavos example. The canals are cold enough to freeze, but there is no snow. I remember the Kingdom of Sarnor as being quite fertile despite its location. There was a large inland sea and fertile water resources. In this way, a great kingdom was established there. As they lost their water supply, they slowly began to weaken and gone. The Dothraki did the rest. Currently, almost all cities are in ruins, only the city of Saath continues to exist. The Dothraki do not live here or in the ruined cities. Most of these cities are already in the inner parts of the region.

Quote

The horselords might put on rich fabrics and sweet perfumes when they visited the Free Cities, but out under the open sky they kept the old ways. Men and women alike wore painted leather vests over bare chests and horsehair leggings cinched by bronze medallion belts, and the warriors greased their long braids with fat from the rendering pits.

...

The old women began to chant. Underneath their painted leather vests, their withered dugs swayed back and forth, shiny with oil and sweat. 

The Dothraki Sea may possibly resemble the Arabian deserts. Deserts are very hot during the day and cold at night, but... The coldness I'm talking about is not normal coldness. Have they ever experienced the Siberian cold? Have they ever lived in a snow-covered area? No.

You forget that the perception of coldness is relative. To a northerner, the cold experienced by the Dothraki is probably something like springtime. I would like to give an example. I live in the south of Türkiye, Antalya is very hot and the humidity is extremely high during the summer months. In autumn and winter, the average temperature is 19-20 degrees. You have no chance of getting a tan(at least for us). The most beautiful periods of the city.

On the other hand, there is a small city called Bayburt in the north of Türkiye. The average temperature in the summer is 19-20 degrees. My friend who lives there was complaining that her brother's arms were red from the sun, and that they were sweltering in the heat. What does this warmth mean to me? Nothing. So what happens if I invite this friend to Antalya in the summer? She could probably die from the heat (joke).

The human body has the perception of cold and heat depending on the season of the region in which it lives. For this reason, you cannot equate the winter experience of a Dothraki with the winter experience of northerners. 

Edited March 8 by YeniAy_Ottoman

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

you cannot equate the winter experience of a Dothraki with the winter experience of northerners. 

Sure, nobody's doing that. Climate depends on far more than simple lines of latitude. But hasn't GRRM himself alluded to the Dothraki being partially based on the Mongol hordes? The Mongolian steppes, being far from the sea, experiences the kinds of temperature variations I imagine the Dothraki Sea does. I think the steppes vary from c. -40 to plus 40 degrees centigrade.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

50 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Sure, nobody's doing that. Climate depends on far more than simple lines of latitude. But hasn't GRRM himself alluded to the Dothraki being partially based on the Mongol hordes? The Mongolian steppes, being far from the sea, experiences the kinds of temperature variations I imagine the Dothraki Sea does. I think the steppes vary from c. -40 to plus 40 degrees centigrade.

No, -40 degrees is valid for lands like Siberia. Today, we can talk about figures like -18-20 in Mongolia. Of course, there may be extreme situations(Some nights can be very cold...), for example, historical sources mention that it snows in summer sometimes... These are the reasons why Turks had problems due to famine, this is one of the reasons for our migration.

 

More important thing is... It snows there, but it doesn't snow in the Dothraki sea. You cannot imagine that the Central Asian steppes are described in the books. For example, there are 3 seasonal zones in the Central Asian steppe; One of them is forested, the other is classically inefficient, the other is more productive. Is the Dothark sea like this? No. You shouldn't imagine it that way. Imagine a warmer climate. I think even -18 is too cold for the Dothraki sea because these people walk around with bare chests and a vest.

[House Cambodia]

23 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

No, -40 degrees is valid for lands like Siberia. Today, we can talk about figures like -18-20 in Mongolia. Of course, there may be extreme situations(Some nights can be very cold...), for example, historical sources mention that it snows in summer sometimes... These are the reasons why Turks had problems due to famine, this is one of the reasons for our migration.

 

More important thing is... It snows there, but it doesn't snow in the Dothraki sea. You cannot imagine that the Central Asian steppes are described in the books. For example, there are 3 seasonal zones in the Central Asian steppe; One of them is forested, the other is classically inefficient, the other is more productive. Is the Dothark sea like this? No. You shouldn't imagine it that way. Imagine a warmer climate. I think even -18 is too cold for the Dothraki sea because these people walk around with bare chests and a vest.

Okay, minus 20 is deemed cold by most, I'd say. I'm not doing a deep dive into this but a quick google confirms that GRRM has the Mongols partially in mind

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/en/news/lifestyle/travel/real-life-places-inspired-by-the-game-of-thrones

and that the environment of the Mongolian steppes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian–Manchurian_grassland

includes "The region features warm summers with decreasing rainfall from east to west, alongside frigid, extremely dry winters." Those frigid temperatures fall to the temperatures I checked previously the minus 20 already agreed upon. "Extremely dry winters" does suggest snow-free, but no one was disputing that detail.

The other environmental zone GRRM name-checks is in America - the North American Great Plains where temperatures fall to minus 70 Fahrenheit (dunno what that means in non-US money, but it sounds very cold).

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

 

The fact that a region of the Dothraki Sea borders the northern sea does not mean that they live and get used to that snowy and ice-filled cold. There is no information that that part is snowed anyway. Think of it like the Braavos example. The canals are cold enough to freeze, but there is no snow. I remember the Kingdom of Sarnor as being quite fertile despite its location. There was a large inland sea and fertile water resources. In this way, a great kingdom was established there. As they lost their water supply, they slowly began to weaken and gone. The Dothraki did the rest. Currently, almost all cities are in ruins, only the city of Saath continues to exist. The Dothraki do not live here or in the ruined cities. Most of these cities are already in the inner parts of the region.

The Dothraki Sea may possibly resemble the Arabian deserts. Deserts are very hot during the day and cold at night, but... The coldness I'm talking about is not normal coldness. Have they ever experienced the Siberian cold? Have they ever lived in a snow-covered area? No.

You forget that the perception of coldness is relative. To a northerner, the cold experienced by the Dothraki is probably something like springtime. I would like to give an example. I live in the south of Türkiye, Antalya is very hot and the humidity is extremely high during the summer months. In autumn and winter, the average temperature is 19-20 degrees. You have no chance of getting a tan(at least for us). The most beautiful periods of the city.

On the other hand, there is a small city called Bayburt in the north of Türkiye. The average temperature in the summer is 19-20 degrees. My friend who lives there was complaining that her brother's arms were red from the sun, and that they were sweltering in the heat. What does this warmth mean to me? Nothing. So what happens if I invite this friend to Antalya in the summer? She could probably die from the heat (joke).

The human body has the perception of cold and heat depending on the season of the region in which it lives. For this reason, you cannot equate the winter experience of a Dothraki with the winter experience of northerners. 

The comparison between the Dothraki Sea and the North would be similar to that between Ukraine/Southern Russia and Scandinavia below the Arctic Circle, IMHO.

The latter is colder overall, but the former can be very cold in Winter.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

There is no information that that part is snowed anyway.

It's mentioned that there's a big trade route from the Free Cities to Vaes Dothrak so I wouldn't expect it to be snowed/iced over if it hasn't been mentioned as such in the books...

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

@House Cambodia @SeanF

Friends, I asked a very simple question. Is it snowing in the Dothark Sea? No.

How can you claim that the coldness of a place where it does not snow is the same as the coldness of a region covered with snow almost every month of the year, or that it is similar to the difference between Ukraine and Russia? Also, Ukraine and Russia are in the same place in terms of geographically, I cannot understand how you accept this.

Dany wandered the Dothraki sea for at least a year, have you ever seen her mention snow? They even passed south of Sarnor, and again she made no mention of the snow. She has seen many parts of Essos, have you ever seen her mention snow?

If the Dothraki sea is almost as cold as the north, how can these people walk around with only a vest over their bare chests? Are you going to claim that they are used to this snow-cold and it doesn't affect them? So why have northerners been wearing furs for more than 5000 years, or Wildings?

These are simple questions and the answers are very simple. I'm sorry, but the Dothraki are not used to the northern cold as you believe, they do not have a culture accustomed to living in a snowy environment. They are not from the north, there is no seasonal zone where there is snow etc. in parallel with them! The fact that the northernmost part of Sarnor is a city parallel to the North Sea and that this region is part of the Dothraki Sea does not indicate that the Dothraki lived there permanently and had a snow culture. I said that the people living in Saat city are not Dothraks anyway, and Dothraks do not live in cities.

The southerners of Westeros are used to seeing snow, but even they have difficulty in the northern geography, they cannot move easily and are badly affected. They live in Essos, which it has a warm-temperate climate; You claim that people walking around with bare chests and vests can easily fight in the north. These are not realistic claims.

The army Dany has is of no use to the north, they simply die. Even dragons cannot move freely in this region. Dorne and the North are a challenge to her, a war she cannot win, especially in the north.

@Craving Peaches Sorry, I could not understand what you mean.

Edited March 9 by YeniAy_Ottoman

[House Cambodia]

I'm not getting lured down this rabbit hole. I've already cited articles that mention the frigid, arid Steppes.

I'll sign off with this brief insight - there is no snow on the dark side of the moon.

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

@Craving Peaches Sorry, I could not understand what you mean.

Sorry that it was not clear. What I meant was:

• It is noted that there is a route for traders running eastwards/westwards to Vaes Dothrak:

Quote

Viserys could not abide the taste of the fermented mare's milk the Dothraki drank, she knew that, and he was oft at the bazaars these days, drinking with the traders who came in the great caravans from east and west. 

• There is no indication this trade route seasonal, that it is blocked during winter by snow/ice etc.
• So I would assume snow/ice isn't an issue in the Dothraki sea, or at least not an issue to the extent that it hinders trade

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Westeros is very weak.  I do not see any of the great houses presenting Dany with strong resistance.  The Lannisters will fight but we will see a repeat of the field of fire.  Casterly Rock will burn and the Lannisters will cook. 

Westeros has no army that can stop the combined power of the khalasars, Unsullied, and three dragons.  Dany has more power than Aegon had during the conquest. 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Westeros is very weak.  I do not see any of the great houses presenting Dany with strong resistance.  The Lannisters will fight but we will see a repeat of the field of fire.  Casterly Rock will burn and the Lannisters will cook. 

Westeros has no army that can stop the combined power of the khalasars, Unsullied, and three dragons.  Dany has more power than Aegon had during the conquest. 

Dany hasnt control of the dragons yet she has partial control over 1 , the unsullied are barely 7k  strong and shel have to leave some in mereen and the dothraki cant cross water nor can tbey be shipped in meaningful numbers.quickly 

Add in winter is comming ,her largest dragon can be hurt by crossbows so scorpions could kill it and shes not exactly gonna be as warmly greeted by dorne as she thinks after drinkwater comes home and tells his version of what happened.

Aegon had 3 fully grown and in control dragons...far far more than dany has

 

[Daeron the Daring]

I feel like this question is largely pointless. Let's not forget half the realm supported a mad monarch purely for being a Targaryen, and a person who, by pure lack of luck, happened to stumble into a group of friendly relations.

I strongly believe that a Stark, an Arryn or Tully would've supported a "Mad King" Aerys II, if they weren't pretty much caught up on the opposing side, simply because how the Starks operated throughout history (trying to give as few fucks about the south as possible), and how much of a loyal branch the Arryns and especially the Tullys were.

Targaryen legitimacy was very much intact. So much so that it took a series of unfortunate events and mistakes for Aerys to fail.

If a Targaryen shows up on the shores, on top of all with 3 dragons, few people would want to challenge that, unless it's a life-death question for them.

But it's very clear that's not the fights Daenerys would have to fight anyway.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Aegon had 3 fully grown and in control dragons...far far more than dany has

This is a valid point. We can easily get diverted by the show, but I'm just re-reading the final chapters of ADWD - by the end of it Drogon, the largest dragon has a 10-foot wingspan and would have been killed by half a dozen spears if Dany hadn't flown off on him. The 3 dragons are far from being intimidating at this point, and the other two are effectively feral having been locked up in a dungeon since they've been in Meereen. She won't be ready to invade Westeros for quite some time (years), by which time who knows how united the Seven Kingdoms will be - or wiped out by the Others.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

On 09.03.2024 at 16:51, Craving Peaches said:

Açık olmadığı için üzgünüm. Demek istediğim .... 'di:

• Tüccarlar için doğuya/batıya doğru Vaes Dothrak'a giden bir rotanın olduğu belirtiliyor:

• Bu ticaret yolunun mevsimsel olduğuna, kış aylarında kar/buz vb. nedeniyle tıkandığına dair bir belirti yoktur.
• Dolayısıyla kar/buzun Dothraki denizinde bir sorun olmadığını veya en azından ticareti engelleyecek düzeyde bir sorun olmadığını varsayıyorum.

Now I understand, it's true. There is an eastern and western market there and it is always active. As you said, we have not seen any information that any of these commercial routes were disrupted due to difficult winter/snow weather conditions.