Jaqens target was Ned or Jon Snow?

[astarkchoice]

35 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I forget the exact chapter where Varys mentions it, but he was a jailer supervisor, not the guy who brought the food. The only prisoners we know he visited were Ned and Tyrion, both due to his 'main job'.

Hmm im pretty sure he was down there as i recall  jamies search  found the little room he was supposed to spend a lot of his time as fake  jailer in. We know theres loads of secret underpassages that varys knows so it makes sense  for him to have a secret identity  to be seen walking in the front door to where people assume the jailer character he created  will spend hours sitting in his little cell monitering the prisoners wheras in reality varys jist uses it sneak away to enter his secret tunnels and do whatever to maintain/use  his little bird network!

 

Edit yes on check his personna rugen was undergaoler to the lowest level..the black cells, while there may be gaolers  and turnkeys under him hed still be expected to be there too and most importantly as the man in charge of that floor we can assume hes the only one with a key/keys that go everywhere on that dark deep level !!! 

Edited March 15 by astarkchoice

[Craving Peaches]

With regards to the aim to kill Ned, I don't see it personally. There was ample opportunity to off Ned before he was in King's Landing, even if they wanted Jaqen specifically to kill Ned while he was there, that does not seem to be a good reason for him to be in the Black Cells. Jaqen could be anywhere else in the city, impersonate one of Ned's guards and so on. Also, as others have said, it doesn't make sense for Varys to want Ned dead at that time. If Varys wanted Ned dead, he probably could have killed him himself, Ned easily could have 'died of his injuries' in the awful conditions in the Black Cells, or Varys could just let Ned be executed as happened since that destabilised the Realm.

Though you are right it is a mystery why Jaqen was in those cells or travelling to the Wall in the first place. I am of the view that Jaqen is on a mission to find things to counteract Dragons. I strongly suspect he is looking for the Book 'The Death of Dragons', which I think is located in the Citadel. If so, Jaqen might have been in the Red Keep because the FM initially believed the book or something to do with the book was located there. And he might have been going to the Wall to gather intel/kill Maester Aemon rather than Jon. If he was aiming to kill someone at the Wall, Aemon seems more likely than Jon because more people know or have the ability to know about Aemon. Also, he could have killed Jon before he reached the Wall if that was his aim.

[House Cambodia]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And he might have been going to the Wall to gather intel/kill Maester Aemon rather than Jon. If he was aiming to kill someone at the Wall, Aemon seems more likely than Jon because more people know or have the ability to know about Aemon. Also, he could have killed Jon before he reached the Wall if that was his aim.

Yet he didn't continue to travel to The Wall after Arya released him. He could even have accompanied her if both were heading to it. I'm with you on his mission to find some key scroll or book on dragons, though.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Yet he didn't continue to travel to The Wall after Arya released him. He could even have accompanied her if both were heading to it. I'm with you on his mission to find some key scroll or book on dragons, though.

Yes, I forgot about that. It doesn't seem like he was intending to go to the Wall at all, at least by that point.

Edited March 15 by Craving Peaches

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Nevets said:

Jaqen couldn't split at any time; he was manacled in a wagon.  If he could free himself, he would have done so when the barn caught fire.  He has no reason to expect anyone to come by, or be willing or able to help if they do.  Ergo, he's stuck.

I doubt that he knew who Arya was, or was interested in her if he did know.  He probably learned at Harrenhal that the Lannisters were searching for Arya Stark, daughter of Ned.  Once he knows that, the pieces fall into place.

I doubt he thought she would make a good acolyte.  She's so unsuitable I have to wonder why they are keeping her around.  I think it's because as a scion of a great house, she is in a good position to help them with info, shelter, money, cover-ups, etc.  Essentially they're manipulating her into helping them, probably in exchange for being able to leave without consequence.

 

Oh I don't know about that. He's a pretty sharp guy. I can't believe lock technology in this society was all that complicated.

And I think he was testing Arya's mettle and character the whole time, including the fire. It was her actions, after all, that led to his story about returning three lives to the red god (which is utter nonsense, btw), which brought her to the HoBaW.

But he's a mysterious character, so who knows?

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Oh I don't know about that. He's a pretty sharp guy. I can't believe lock technology in this society was all that complicated.

And I think he was testing Arya's mettle and character the whole time, including the fire. It was her actions, after all, that led to his story about returning three lives to the red god (which is utter nonsense, btw), which brought her to the HoBaW.

But he's a mysterious character, so who knows?

Well in the road  its stil a lock  plus hes in an open cage being watched at all timed by dudes with swords....hes not that good!

[the trees have eyes]

Nah, he, Rorge and Biter very nearly burn to death in that wagon.  It's pure luck (for them) that Arya happens to come by heading for the tunnel and throw them the axe.  They are seconds away from dying.

And Jaqen is serious about repaying those three lives.  He hangs around Harrenhall for ages to repay them and nearly bricks himself when Arya tells him his is the third name.

I think the simplest explanation for Jaqen is as a character with a formative role in Arya's arc and development.  The Black Cells, his being bound in the wagon, his mysterious purpose in KL in the first place are all pretty irrelevant.  GRRM is a gardener and put in a cool character with a specific story role (re Arya) and a blank space backstory he cold fill in if and when he desired and then expanded his role with another mysterious purpose off in Oldtown - one which will be explained more clearly we imagine.  Maybe he'll tie those purposes together but like Syrio or Yoren (or The Hound) he's one of Arya's protectors who are stripped away or abandon her one after the other and it's what he's up to now that matters.

I can't see much reason to hire him to off Ned who never wanted the Handship, already tried to resign once and once he's agreed to take the Black his honour will hold him there.  The reason Jaqen goes north is because the author wants to use him in Arya's story not to strike at a target at WF or The Wall (places he does not subsequently visit).

[Aebram]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I strongly suspect he is looking for the Book 'The Death of Dragons', which I think is located in the Citadel.

Yes, the text tells us that, in fact, the only surviving copy is at the Citadel (Dance 14). That's a key reason for my belief that Jaqen is acting as a spy, not an assassin.

I'm intrigued by Aejohn's suggestion that "Jaqen H'ghar" may be the name of a real criminal, and the Faceless Man took over his identity at some point. Perhaps when the FM arrived in King's landing, he wanted a new identity. So he killed some random man in Flea Bottom, not knowing that his victim was actually a wanted criminal who would be grabbed by the first gold cloak that recognized him.

I'm still somewhat mystified by the whole "the red god will have his due" subplot. There's no other mention in the books of a religion having such a belief. My best guess is that, during their journey North, Jaqen figured out that "Arry" was actually Arya Stark, and he knew her to have some magical abilities because of her Stark lineage. So he made up the story about owing her three lives in order to win her trust, and eventually give her the iron coin, in hopes of recruiting her.  Or perhaps he simply thought that, being highborn, it would be valuable to befriend her and keep her alive.

As I said, "the most mysterious character ..." I sometimes think that Nevets has the right idea: the George wrote Jaqen into the story as a plot device, without thinking through all the implications.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 3/10/2024 at 6:56 AM, HotPieLover said:

A have a little theory as to why jaqen (a skilled assassin and escape artist) was on his way to the wall after spending some time in the black cells of kings landing.

Could it be that Jaqen was in KL thanks to Varys? I mean we already know that he has a gaoler-disguise so he could maybe have a part in Jaqen beeing there. 

If the theory about Varys beeing a secret blackfyre is true he could have wanted Jaqen to assassinate some target in westeros in order to destabilize the realm before F/Aegons imminent invasion.

But who could this target have been? I believe that Ned could have been the target at first, but after his execution jaqen was assigned to assassinate someone else.

That makes me question as to why jaqen was travelling to the wall to join the nights watch. Did he have a target there? Could Jon have been jaqens target before beeing released into the Riverlands? If the Jon was the target, did Varys or someone else know his secret indentity as Rhaegar’s true heir and son? 

Jaqen is still in Westeros, but has travelled the wrong way if he wanted to join the NW. Does he want to find something in Oldtown as F/Pate to get to Jon in some way?

I know that this is a really crackpot theory, but I have been pondering this for a couple of days and I thought that it might be worth beeing my first post on this forum! Looking forwards to your thoughts and answers!

Ned and Robert. The Magister hired Jaquen to remove the impediments to a Targaryen return. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/10/2024 at 6:56 AM, HotPieLover said:

A have a little theory as to why jaqen (a skilled assassin and escape artist) was on his way to the wall after spending some time in the black cells of kings landing.

Could it be that Jaqen was in KL thanks to Varys? I mean we already know that he has a gaoler-disguise so he could maybe have a part in Jaqen beeing there. 

If the theory about Varys beeing a secret blackfyre is true he could have wanted Jaqen to assassinate some target in westeros in order to destabilize the realm before F/Aegons imminent invasion.

But who could this target have been? I believe that Ned could have been the target at first, but after his execution jaqen was assigned to assassinate someone else.

That makes me question as to why jaqen was travelling to the wall to join the nights watch. Did he have a target there? Could Jon have been jaqens target before beeing released into the Riverlands? If the Jon was the target, did Varys or someone else know his secret indentity as Rhaegar’s true heir and son? 

Jaqen is still in Westeros, but has travelled the wrong way if he wanted to join the NW. Does he want to find something in Oldtown as F/Pate to get to Jon in some way?

I know that this is a really crackpot theory, but I have been pondering this for a couple of days and I thought that it might be worth beeing my first post on this forum! Looking forwards to your thoughts and answers!

It was The Ned, thanks to Peter…

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:30 AM, Nevets said:

I am firmly convinced that Jaqen was in the black cells because GRRM put him there to advance Arya's story, and didn't give the whys and wherefores a second thought.  Even from a story point of view I don't think it matters.

Ned Stark isn't that difficult to kill.  He meets all types, and has no real security to speak of.  Also, I can't think of anyone who would want him dead badly enough to pay the enormous price for it.  Cersei and Littlefinger had some interest in his death, but had their own plans In place.

He wasn't there to join the Nights Watch.  The NW is the easiest out fit ever to infiltrate.  They take anyone - literally.  If you have a penis and can walk, they'll take you.  If not, they may take you anyway.  It's not like they do background checks.  If secret agent guy can't pretend to be a petty criminal, a down-and-outer, or someone escaping debts or a bad marriage, then he's not worth his paycheck.

I think he is on the cells because he got caught doing something ir being someplace he shouldn't have been.  It happens, even to the best.  And from what I've seen in Arya's story, I am beginning to think their reputation is a bit inflated.

I think after he left Harrenhal, he returned to Braavos to report and get a new assignment, which happens to be at the Citadel.

Yes. When the character was written into the story, it was nothing more than a plot device, which is very unsatisfying, I think.