How is Daenerys going to supply her army during the Invasion of Westeros?

[Ring3r]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Don't know how's that possible with the Lannisters and Euron still running amok and the North being its own separate theater.

Young G ascension will not stop any wars, unless plot, it'd simply mean new alliances are made, whatever the Riverlands are still burning either way.

I simply do not know why people sincerely believe Aegon has the capability to solve Westeros' huge problems by himself.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply he'd solve the entire continent's issues....clearly he cant.  But if he takes control of King's Landing and releases the stored food, he could at least alleviate the suffering of that one city.  The one city that Dany dearly wants to be in charge of.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Ring3r said:

But if he takes control of King's Landing and releases the stored food, he could at least alleviate the suffering of that one city

What stored food?

The Vale's?

 

7 hours ago, Ring3r said:

The one city that Dany dearly wants to be in charge of.

She wants to be in charge of the entire continent.

 

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Don't know how's that possible with the Lannisters and Euron still running amok and the North being its own separate theater.

Young G ascension will not stop any wars, unless plot, it'd simply mean new alliances are made, whatever the Riverlands are still burning either way.

I simply do not know why people sincerely believe Aegon has the capability to solve Westeros' huge problems by himself.

 

 

Nothing that I’ve seen of young Griff suggests to me a particularly capable ruler.

And, I think that his capture of Kings Landing will be accompanied by the executions of Myrcella, Tommen, Margaery, and a bloodbath of anyone associated with the ancien regime.

This may well be popular with his supporters, but will create opposition from the relatives of the victims.

[Mithras]

Lol

Quote

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

 

 

[SeanF]

One can overthink all this.

All the armies that we've seen are similar in size to the armies of the Thirty Years War/Spanish-Dutch Wars/The Deluge, rather than the typical size of a medieval army.

100,000 soldiers from the Reach would likely be supported by a similar number of camp followers, as well as having more than 100,000 horses, who would eat 1.5% to 3% of their body weight, every day.  The soldiers alone, would consume about 75 tons of meat, 100 tons of bread, and 70,000 gallons of ale, every day.  The camp followers would receive less, but you can still probably up that figure by 60-70% to take account of them.  And, they need firewood to cook their stews, often made from stringy draft animals that have reached the end of their lives.  That's a lot of peasant hovels being dismantled for their wood.

Medieval states (other than China or the Eastern Empire) could not raise such armies for any length of time.  Early modern states, more centralised, could do, if with difficulty.  

If the author wants Daenerys' army to be well-supplied, then it will be.

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I've just given you two quotes which show that more R'hlorr followers than Stannis's lot are engaging in iconoclasm. Again:

Textbook example of iconoclasm, trying to burn down other people's religious objects. Furthermore, the comment Salladhor makes to Davos:

Is specifically in relation to a conversation between him and Davos where they are discussing the burning of the Seven, hence it alludes to more iconoclasm.

So not only do we have Melisandre burning statues of the Seven and Weirwoods, we have R'hlorr followers in Qohor trying to burn down the patron god of the city and red priests in Lys burning all sorts. Clearly, iconoclasm is standard practice for the Red Faith, or at least not limited to Melisandre as you appear to be suggesting. It is widespread enough that it happens in multiple locations with varying levels of frequency.

You are just trying to play up an issue. The R'hllorians are not more or less intolerant of other religions as (the current faction running) the Faith.

And, of course, trying to burn down the idol of Shub-Niggurath is a noble and valiant thing. The vilest cult in the Free Cities we know so far is that of the Black Goat.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Don't know how's that possible with the Lannisters and Euron still running amok and the North being its own separate theater.

Young G ascension will not stop any wars, unless plot, it'd simply mean new alliances are made, whatever the Riverlands are still burning either way.

I simply do not know why people sincerely believe Aegon has the capability to solve Westeros' huge problems by himself.

Aegon will make matters worse simply by being there and fighting to gain the throne. And once (or if) he gets he will have to fight to keep it and to pacify the Realm. Hell, if he takes the Others seriously he even might to rise an army to march up north to help defend the Wall and crush Stannis and subdue the North on the way.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Nothing that I’ve seen of young Griff suggests to me a particularly capable ruler.

And, I think that his capture of Kings Landing will be accompanied by the executions of Myrcella, Tommen, Margaery, and a bloodbath of anyone associated with the ancien regime.

This may well be popular with his supporters, but will create opposition from the relatives of the victims.

Even if they were playing things nice - like they do in the Stormlands right now - they will be hated by the people they displace. If Tommen and Myrcella were merely deposed/captured the Westermen are still not going to cheer Aegon. And the Tyrells and the Reach won't just sagely nod if Margaery is deposed as queen because Aegon refuses to marry her.

And since things are almost certainly set up in such a way that the High Septon will declare Aegon the rightful king and champion of the Seven chances are very good that the Tyrells won't make their peace with Aegon lightly or at all since the Faith actually dared to arrest Margaery - and might yet play a crucial role in destroying her reputation or even her person.

The High Septon's attack on both queens was nothing short but suicidal in the long run as the chance that the Iron Throne and the noble elite will actually suffer this kind of behavior for long is ludicrous. Randyll Tarly already wants to butcher all the sparrows, and a King Tommen ruling in his own right might very well remember how his mother and wife were treated by the Faith in his childhood.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

If the author wants Daenerys' army to be well-supplied, then it will be.

That's it. Just as Stannis magically doesn't have 20,000 cavalrymen at the Blackwater never mind that he could have only won cavalry men at Storm's End as Renly only went there with his horsemen.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You are just trying to play up an issue. The R'hllorians are not more or less intolerant of other religions as (the current faction running) the Faith.

And, of course, trying to burn down the idol of Shub-Niggurath is a noble and valiant thing. The vilest cult in the Free Cities we know so far is that of the Black Goat.

Aegon will make matters worse simply by being there and fighting to gain the throne. And once (or if) he gets he will have to fight to keep it and to pacify the Realm. Hell, if he takes the Others seriously he even might to rise an army to march up north to help defend the Wall and crush Stannis and subdue the North on the way.

Even if they were playing things nice - like they do in the Stormlands right now - they will be hated by the people they displace. If Tommen and Myrcella were merely deposed/captured the Westermen are still not going to cheer Aegon. And the Tyrells and the Reach won't just sagely nod if Margaery is deposed as queen because Aegon refuses to marry her.

And since things are almost certainly set up in such a way that the High Septon will declare Aegon the rightful king and champion of the Seven chances are very good that the Tyrells won't make their peace with Aegon lightly or at all since the Faith actually dared to arrest Margaery - and might yet play a crucial role in destroying her reputation or even her person.

The High Septon's attack on both queens was nothing short but suicidal in the long run as the chance that the Iron Throne and the noble elite will actually suffer this kind of behavior for long is ludicrous. Randyll Tarly already wants to butcher all the sparrows, and a King Tommen ruling in his own right might very well remember how his mother and wife were treated by the Faith in his childhood.

That's it. Just as Stannis magically doesn't have 20,000 cavalrymen at the Blackwater never mind that he could have only won cavalry men at Storm's End as Renly only went there with his horsemen.

My view is based upon Jon Con wanting to extinguish Robert’s bloodline, and the Sand Snakes being mad for revenge.

[Mithras]

Lol

Quote

 

"Women do not forget. Women do not forgive."
No, Dany thought, and the Usurper's dogs will learn that, when I return to Westeros.

...

"Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper's dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty. The guilt …" 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My view is based upon Jon Con wanting to extinguish Robert’s bloodline, and the Sand Snakes being mad for revenge.

Yes, I know. And I do think there is a good chance that something like that happens. But regarding Margaery and the Tyrell situation in general we have to keep in mind that the Faith might yet conduct its trial which could go wrong for Margaery and Arianne/Aegon could decide to unleash the Dornish army in the Prince's Pass against Highgarden before they move against KL to further distract/weaken the Reach before they move to depose Tommen.

After all, with Willas and Garlan occupied with the Ironborn threat on the Shields the chance for the Dornishmen to actually capture Highgarden itself is not exactly low.

If any such things were to happen then the potential for a peace between Aegon and the Tyrells might even be gone before Aegon's forces take KL.

While the Sand Snakes do have a lot of potential to wreak havoc I think Tyene's chances to mess with Margaery during the trial might be better than Nym's chance to actually murder Tommen or Myrcella. Nym will come with a retinue to KL but the Red Keep is full of Lannister and Tyrell guardsmen. Tommen (and Myrcella, if/when she arrives at the castle) should be pretty safe from direct attacks, especially in the wake of the double murder. No chance for any royal to go anywhere unattended.

Nym could repeat Gregor's stunt if/when the city falls to Aegon's forces, though.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are just trying to play up an issue.

That's what the text says. If you want to ignore the text then fine.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The R'hllorians are not more or less intolerant of other religions as (the current faction running) the Faith.

Contradicted by the text but okay.

[SeanF]

I tend to agree that attacking the Black Goat, a Satanic religion founded upon child sacrifice, is a good thing.  As is the Red Faith’s championing of emancipation.

I don’t think the Red Clergy want to forcibly suppress other religions, despite viewing them as false.  Stannis has plenty of “unbelievers” in his ranks, and Melisandre accepts that fact.  They champion Daenerys, despite her being a pagan, in their eyes.

But, the Faith might well see them as a threat.  Followers of the Old Gods and the Drowned God are restricted to specific ethnic groups, and they are not making converts.  They aren’t a problem.

But, R’hllorism is out to make converts. No problem if they’re under 5% of the population, but what if they reach 10%+, and stop paying tithes, and accepting the moral jurisdiction of the Faith, like English Nonconformists? What if Dany converts?  Even if she guarantees all the rights and privileges of the Faith, the clergy may still fear that nobles will follow her example, followed by their tenants and serfs.

 

Edited May 6 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As is the Red Faith’s championing of emancipation.

This is an odd assertion since they have temple slaves including sex slaves.

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don’t think the Red Clergy want to forcibly suppress other religions, despite viewing them as false.  Stannis has plenty of “unbelievers” in his ranks, and Melisandre accepts that fact.

Then why do they let their followers destroy Septs and why is Melisandre insistent on burning heart trees which are sacred objects for followers of the Old Gods?

Edit: obviously the Black Goat is an awful religion but you can't single it out for child sacrifice when Melisandre is all for that too.

Edited May 6 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is an odd assertion since they have temple slaves including sex slaves.

Then why do they let their followers destroy Septs and why is Melisandre insistent on burning heart trees which are sacred objects for followers of the Old Gods?

Edit: obviously the Black Goat is an awful religion but you can't single it out for child sacrifice when Melisandre is all for that too.

Presumably, they see servitude to R’hllor as being different to being another human’s chattel.

They expect their converts to destroy their own idols.  So far as I know, they aren’t attacking the religious buildings and relics of those who are not converts.

Melisandre isn’t attempting to stop Jon and the rest from worshipping as they choose, up at the Wall.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

So far as I know, they aren’t attacking the religious buildings and relics of those who are not converts.

Well they ransack a sept and burn statues of the Seven, kill those that don't want it destroyed, and burn a weirwood grove, and order wildings to burn Weirwood branches. Those weren't owned by converts, unless you take the line that all the property belonged to Stannis. There were certainly many people who were not happy about the destruction of that Sept and would have liked to continue to pray there. Not to mention the things in Essos they are burning.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Presumably, they see servitude to R’hllor as being different to being another human’s chattel.

They are slaves to the temple of R'hlorr, not R'hlorr himself. If they were so pro emancipation they could have freed those slaves. If their devotion to R'hlorr was genuine they should be happy to continue service to him as free men.

Edited May 6 by Craving Peaches

[Ring3r]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

What stored food?

The Vale's?

 

She wants to be in charge of the entire continent.

 

There are still food stores.  All the great houses have them, so they can survive.

 

And....yes....Dany does want to be in charge of the entire continent...but she currently believes that means King's Landing is pivotal.  I would argue that Old Town is far more important. Aegon conquered Old Town prior to developing Kings Landing into an actual city....and it's a really bad location to defend, with sea and river access. 

But....she's....what....16 years old at this point?  She's got a lot to learn. And....per GRRM, she's not very bookish.  She's not reading any of the stuff Jorah gave her, for example.

Edited May 6 by Ring3r

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's what the text says. If you want to ignore the text then fine.

Contradicted by the text but okay.

LOL, you say one attack on a Great Old One idol whose followers practice a heinous 'religion', the claim the red priests always 'burn this or that', and Melisandre equal that this religion is, on average, more extreme than others.

That is nonsense in light of the fact that we have a number of crucial red priests and their followers not doing this stuff. Most crucial is the fact that there is religious freedom and tolerance in Braavos where there are followers of R'hllor and even more importantly that R'hllorism is a rather influential religion among the slaves of Volantis with a hugely impressive and expensive temple ... and so far the High Priest Benerro has also not tried to attack the gods and beliefs of the Valyrian ruling class of the city.

In fact, Dany is only crucial for him as Azor Ahai Reborn, not as a means to overthrow the other religions in Volantis.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, R’hllorism is out to make converts. No problem if they’re under 5% of the population, but what if they reach 10%+, and stop paying tithes, and accepting the moral jurisdiction of the Faith, like English Nonconformists? What if Dany converts?  Even if she guarantees all the rights and privileges of the Faith, the clergy may still fear that nobles will follow her example, followed by their tenants and serfs.

I think that is a good chance that we will see the High Septon and Aegon start a crusade against Thoros' converts in the Riverlands and as the threat of Euron (and thus, in a sense, the power of the Drowned God would increase even if there aren't (m)any converts) increases they will also do away with the religious tolerance earlier High Septons had towards the minority religions in Westeros.

How red priests in Dany's retinue will be seen by the time she shows will depend on when she shows and how far winter and the Long Night have advanced by then. I'm sure R'hllor will gain more and more followers in winter in Westeros. The entire point of the Thoros plot in the Riverlands is to lay they groundwork for that. Just as it is no coincidence at all that R'hllor apparently resurrects the dead and not the Seven or the old gods.

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well they ransack a sept and burn statues of the Seven, kill those that don't want it destroyed, and burn a weirwood grove, and order wildings to burn Weirwood branches. Those weren't owned by converts, unless you take the line that all the property belonged to Stannis. There were certainly many people who were not happy about the destruction of that Sept and would have liked to continue to pray there. Not to mention the things in Essos they are burning.

They are slaves to the temple of R'hlorr, not R'hlorr himself. If they were so pro emancipation they could have freed those slaves. If their devotion to R'hlorr was genuine they should be happy to continue service to him as free men.

Stannis burned the idols in his own sept on Dragonstone, just as he burned his very own godswood at Storm's End. That is his right, just as it his right to kill people who presume to 'guard' his property against their rightful owner ... not to mention defying their king.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Melisandre isn’t attempting to stop Jon and the rest from worshipping as they choose, up at the Wall.

That is a crucial thing. Most readers don't really understand Melisandre. She wants the people who join her to be fully on her side, especially Stannis, and that involves breaking with old traditions, etc. But as we see her attitude towards Davos, the lukewarm fake convicts among her flock, and Jon Snow it is quite clear that she hasn't as much issue with dissenting opinions or religious as one thought when seeing her only through Cressen's and Davos' eyes.

The crucial thing is that the fate of the world is at stake.

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well they ransack a sept and burn statues of the Seven, kill those that don't want it destroyed, and burn a weirwood grove, and order wildings to burn Weirwood branches. Those weren't owned by converts, unless you take the line that all the property belonged to Stannis. There were certainly many people who were not happy about the destruction of that Sept and would have liked to continue to pray there. Not to mention the things in Essos they are burning.

They are slaves to the temple of R'hlorr, not R'hlorr himself. If they were so pro emancipation they could have freed those slaves. If their devotion to R'hlorr was genuine they should be happy to continue service to him as free men.

Well, the Sept and Godswood in question  were owned by Stannis.

It’s as if some sixteenth century lord converted to Protestantism, destroyed the statues in his chapel, and had it reconsecrated as a Lutheran church.

Deeply offensive to many, but within his rights.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

on average, more extreme than others.

How many instances of followers of the Old Gods or Seven attacking other religions in the way the Red Faith in the present day are mentioned in the main series? Does Septon Chayle want to burn down Winterfell's Godswood? No.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis burned the idols in his own sept on Dragonstone, just as he burned his very own godswood at Storm's End. 

Do you think he just came up with this idea on his own then? Or do you think that an extremist religion urged him to do so?

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is nonsense in light of the fact that we have a number of crucial red priests and their followers not doing this stuff.

We have one Red Priest who does nothing dubious and that's Thoros. Moqorro is onboard with human sacrifice, Benero is onboard with slavery, Melisandre is onboard with all sorts of atrocious things, the ones in Lys are all for iconoclasm along with the rest of them bar Thoros.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Most crucial is the fact that there is religious freedom and tolerance in Braavos

That's to do with the city, not the religion.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

and so far the High Priest Benerro has also not tried to attack the gods and beliefs of the Valyrian ruling class of the city.

Key phrase there being 'so far'.

Edited May 6 by Craving Peaches

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How many instances of followers of the Old Gods or Seven attacking other religions in the way the Red Faith in the present day are mentioned in the main series? Does Septon Chayle want to burn down Winterfell's Godswood? No.

Better ask the High Septon what he and his crazed followers want to do to 'devil worshippers'.

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do you think he just came up with this idea on his own then? Or do you think that an extremist religion urged him to do so?

The point being there is that Stannis burned his own property, not the property of a religion or even other people. He didn't decree that his bannermen on Driftmark, Claw Isle, Massey's Hook, etc. also do burn their own property.

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We have one Red Priest who does nothing dubious and that's Thoros. Moqorro is onboard with human sacrifice, Benero is onboard with slavery, Melisandre is onboard with all sorts of atrocious things, the ones in Lys are all for iconoclasm along with the rest of them bar Thoros.

That is irrelevant. The point of our discussion is your characterization of R'hllorism as an 'iconoclastic religion', not the real or imagined flaws of this or that follower of that religion. Tywin happens to be an Andal and a lord. Does this mean all Andal lords have their guardsmen rape their minor daughters-in-law?

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's to do with the city, not the religion.

It also has to do with the religion as practiced in that city. The Braavosi red priests obviously have not yet taken over Braavos nor driven out all other religions ... which is what they should have done if they are as aggressive as you paint them since exploiting religious tolerance is a rather easy way to win converts.

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Key phrase there being 'so far'.

Nope, in light of the fact that R'hllorism is no new religion and a huge red temple is standing there in Volantis this issue raises the same question as in Volantis.

Your theory is just pretty bad, obviously.

It is also rather interesting that 'R'hllorism' is even a particularly united religion. There is no leader running things and there are cultural differences to the various types of red priests we met so far. Volantene red priests are slaves and tattooed whereas Myrish are neither, and Braavosi red priests can't be slaves for obvious reasons. 

The author himself has already told us that Melisandre's own motivations and beliefs are decidedly different from that of other red priests. Not that we needed him to say that - it was obvious since we met Thoros and even more so after we met Benerro and Moqorro.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is irrelevant.

Then why did you bring this up?

Quote

That is nonsense in light of the fact that we have a number of crucial red priests and their followers not doing this stuff. 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point of our discussion is your characterization of R'hllorism as an 'iconoclastic religion',

Which it clearly is going by the text. No other religions in the present time are mentioned to be burning down symbols of other religions. Even the Dothraki just steal them.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin happens to be an Andal and a lord. Does this mean all Andal lords have their guardsmen rape their minor daughters-in-law?

That's a silly comparison because there are multiple instances of R'hlorr followers engaging in iconoclasm and only one example of that.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

... which is what they should have done if they are as aggressive as you paint them since exploiting religious tolerance is a rather easy way to win converts.

Unless, of course, the Braavosi authorities clamped down on that sort of thing.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, in light of the fact that R'hllorism is no new religion and a huge red temple is standing there in Volantis this issue raises the same question as in Volantis.

Quote

"In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen."

Obviously this man is completely onboard with religious tolerance then and totally won't try something when he's in a position of power to do so.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Your theory is just pretty bad, obviously.

I think my theory that R'hlorrism is less tolerant than other religions is a tad better than your theory that it is just as tolerant, given my theory actually lines up with the text. But I don't see a point in discussing much further given you just ignore or handwave away what is written in the actual books. So I will bid farewell.