Memory of Light v. A Dance With Dragons

[Innominandum]

The only problem is that he doesn't appear to be too interested in using the bulk of that time for actual writing, which, while completely his perrogative (he is, after all, his own person), still frustrates many fans like myself. In a way it's almost like he doesn't give a shit about his fans, which ironically many of whom meet the guy at these cons he's so fond of attending.

I think the actual problem is that you are creating this frustration by saying that "he doesn't appear to be too interested blah blah blah" while you have no idea (or at least, not enough) of what he's actually doing.

He completely rewrote what he had written for the pre-split AFFC, how is that not actual writing ? So many authors would have just used these chapters unchanged in the same situation.

[Padraig]

If Ran says ADWD will be done first, I am not going to argue with him.

That's a good point.

KoF, he did write aSoS very fast. Something like 1.5 years. That book was the culmination of the first 2 books, so looking back at it, it isn't too surprising that the writing was easy enough.

when he updated his progress, he frequently mentioned months going by without any productivity because he was attending cons and participating in business deals

I presume you are talking about his aFfC book tours? Otherwise I don't think he has ever said he wasn't at all productive on aDwD for months for those reasons.

indulging without inhibition in whatever activity catches his fancyt has had dramatic effect in the delays

And this just seems completely OTT. Without inhibition? I'm sure he could spend a lot less time writing if he wanted to.

The only problem is that he doesn't appear to be too interested in using the bulk of that time for actual writing

And I don't agree with this either. He could spend more time writing but he has a life. Otherwise we just don't know how much time he is actually distracted from writing aDwD. We know he has other interests, that's about it.

[Humble Asskicker]

I presume you are talking about his aFfC book tours? Otherwise I don't think he has ever said he wasn't at all productive on aDwD for months for those reasons.

I remember very clearly last summer there being a dearth of updates regarding progress of Dance, and what little there were stated that alas, not much was done. Unavoidable obligations and all that.

And this just seems completely OTT. Without inhibition? I'm sure he could spend a lot less time writing if he wanted to.

Precisely. I still think GRRM has some interest in ASoIaF (especially since HBO is now involved). But there are other things he has a lot more interest in, and he doesn't seem to exercise a writer's discipline as far as it goes. But this has been discussed, and I would rather not get into a cyclical argument.

[Kat]

Yes it is, if you're Steven Erikson. That dude's output is crazy. We're talking Stephen King/James Michener territory here.

And he only writes 4 hours day.

Not being a WoT fan, I don't really have a stake in this argument. I'm waiting for ADWD as much as anyone else is, but not expecting GRRM to move too quickly. Then again, I grew up with a father who's had 20+ years of writer's block...he researches and writes a lot, apparently, but hasn't managed to turn it into anything publishable. So for me, GRRM seems fast.

[Padraig]

I remember very clearly last summer there being a dearth of updates regarding progress of Dance, and what little there were stated that alas, not much was done. Unavoidable obligations and all that.

Uhuh. And i'm sure there was no issues with interpretation. People usually see what they want to see.

Precisely. I still think GRRM has some interest in ASoIaF (especially since HBO is now involved). But there are other things he has a lot more interest in, and he doesn't seem to exercise a writer's discipline as far as it goes. But this has been discussed, and I would rather not get into a cyclical argument.

I love when people make controversial statements and then say they would rather not discuss it. A lot more interest in other things? Exercising a writer's discipline? Can you define what all that would be?

[Myrddin]

Exercising a writer's discipline? Can you define what all that would be?

I define it as: Ass in chair. Hands on keyboard. Even if nothing comes.

That's what I have to force myself to do occasionally. Usually, I'm just trying to scrape a decent chunk of time around work and family... When I do get a chance, even if I'm not motivated to write anything worth keeping, I keep my ass in the chair.

In the time since Feast has come out, I've re-started my forever in progress novel from scratch (well, I kept about 15k words) and am nearly finished. Right now, I'm at about 136k words (polished and some revision), with an estimated finish at 180k. I'm a slow writer and I'm doing this on weekends and occasional nights.

[Maid Sansa]

I define it as: Ass in chair. Hands on keyboard. Even if nothing comes.

And what good exactly would that do, other than make you feel better and frustrate him? GRRM is not you, what may work for you (to some extent, it seems since your novel is still in progress) will not necessarily work for him.

And on topic - even if I was a fan of WoT, which I'm not, I'd be rooting for ADWD first.

[L'Sana]

It seems to me that Jordan's health issues may be just as much a factor in speeding up his work as slowing it down. Yes, it means that he gets tired much more easily and probably can't manage the butt-in-chair-hands-on-keyboard routine for nearly as long as GRRM can, but it also means he has an approaching deadline. It might be a motivation.

Without being able to read either author's mind, let me speculate on what they might be thinking:

GRRM needs to finish ADWD before he completely runs through the money from AFFC. Which might take a while, given that it was a bestseller and that he seems pretty savy about selling the rights. So there isn't any real pressure. I'm sure he wants to finish it and make it good, but he has time.

Jordan needs to finish in the next two years or so, or he may not finish it at all. Wheel of Time is his life's work, and I doubt he wants to leave it unfinished. So he needs to push a bit.

Given the difference in motivations, my bet is on Memory of Light before Dance with Dragons, assuming that MOL comes out at all.

[Myrddin]

And what good exactly would that do, other than make you feel better and frustrate him?

Make me feel better that he sits in his chair all day? No, not particularly. I think you miss understand. I'm not saying he should chain himself to his desk until he finishes.

GRRM is not you, what may work for you (to some extent, it seems since your novel is still in progress) will not necessarily work for him.

Very true. But good seat time (actual time varies of course) is a requirement for writers. By his own admission, GRRM hasn't been putting in as much seat time over the past year (recent exceptions noted).

Someone asked for a definition of "writer's diligence," and I gave one based on experience, and by reading about and talking with pro writers. I stand by it, even if I don't practice it as often as I'd like. You see? If I was more diligent, my novel would be finished 10 times over. I'm not preaching from some high pulpit, but from a stepping stool, as I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to find time to write this weekend.

[Padraig]

I define it as: Ass in chair. Hands on keyboard. Even if nothing comes.

Fair enough for giving a definition. Nice to know its that simple.

But are you are saying that all authors recommend sitting on the chair even if they are getting nowhere fast?

And just to avoid the inevitable reply, I certainly don't think GRRM takes the complete opposite approach either btw. As in, wake up in the morning, if he doesn't feel like writing, he doesn't bother even trying. There is a nice middle ground where most authors should be comfortable in.

By his own admission, GRRM hasn't been putting in as much seat time over the past year (recent exceptions noted).

And I think you are exaggerating what GRRM has said here. (As in, an author can always put in more time).

[Myrddin]

But are you are saying that all authors recommend sitting on the chair even if they are getting nowhere fast?

For a short period every day, yes. (This applies to "all authors" that I've spoken to/read interviews/etc. Obviously I don't speak for all writers.)

I certainly don't think GRRM takes the complete opposite approach either btw.

Me either.

The point isn't enforced slavery to the writing machine so it can draw its daily ration of blood. The point is to be disciplined and not wait for inspiration to strike. And this definition is in no way aimed specifically at GRRM. It's for anyone who writes.

[Guarneri]

Ay.

Is it a lot easier to wait for a muse to greet you before you write? Of course, if you do it in an inspired mood the story practically writes itself, and everything can flow together in great detail so you don't have to go back and edit it a few thousand times.

But for most people muses are seldom in coming, and that's when discipline takes its course. Writing is an art, and prose is usually less inspiration and more along the lines of learned and developed skill. Sometimes just have to grind it out, so you have something on the page at least. Then you can go polish it later, perhaps when your muse does rest on your shoulder.

But of course it's easy for George to be distracted. I mean, I'm sure he's lost some enthusiasm for his books after all these years, it's only natural. And in the meantime other stories have filled his head, and his writer's instinct will tell him to bring those to life too. And it's a hell of a thing writing one story when your motivation wants you to write a new one.

[Astra]

I, personally, gave up on waiting for the last book in WoT series. I doubt it will ever be finished

[Blaine]

I define it as: Ass in chair. Hands on keyboard. Even if nothing comes.

As always with these sorts of threads, it's not very difficult to imagine poor George in a very Misery-like situation if some of you got a hold of him.

Just try not to hobble him or call him a dirty bird.

[Winterfella]

As always with these sorts of threads, it's not very difficult to imagine poor George in a very Misery-like situation if some of you got a hold of him.

Just try not to hobble him or call him a dirty bird.

But I'm his Number One Fan!!!!!

[Padraig]

But of course it's easy for George to be distracted. I mean, I'm sure he's lost some enthusiasm for his books after all these years, it's only natural. And in the meantime other stories have filled his head, and his writer's instinct will tell him to bring those to life too. And it's a hell of a thing writing one story when your motivation wants you to write a new one.

This was easier to argue before that post when he announced that he had a great day of writing. His excitement regarding the story shone through.

[Sword of Funny]

This was easier to argue before that post when he announced that he had a great day of writing. His excitement regarding the story shone through.

There are a couple reasons I have for believing it. First, the struggles and delays he had in writing AFFC. Second, the fact that AFFC contained the character POVs that were actually easier to write for him (I infer based on my understanding of human nature and reason four below), and that he had a better handle on, yet he still called it a "bitch." Third, the fact that he had to discard the 7 year (or whatever) gap that the final three books hinged on. Now he's forced to solve all sorts of plot problems he had never planned for. Suddenly the Stark kids and Dany are a struggle to write. Fourth, he has made comments that he prefers writing quasi-historical fantasy (I guess this means drawing heavily from actual history and realistic medieval cultures, but light on magic/monsters), struggles to write magical chars and events, and actually despises heavy doses of it in fantasy lit. Noticeably absent from AFFC were all of the heavily magical characters: Bran, Dany, even Melisandre and the Others.

Unfortunately, the birth of the dragons coincides with the reintroduction of 'magic' into the world of Westeros. Good luck, GRRM.

[Multaniette]

well, i'd rather read fifty thousand pages on brienne's wanderings through westeros than the most action-filled, susepenseful offering jordan can put out so the wait is immaterial to me, but i do think GRRM should stop making promises/predictions - a straight out 'it will be finished when it's finished' is much better than building expectations and then turning back on them...

[Werthead]

There are a couple reasons I have for believing it. First, the struggles and delays he had in writing AFFC. Second, the fact that AFFC contained the character POVs that were actually easier to write for him (I infer based on my understanding of human nature and reason four below), and that he had a better handle on, yet he still called it a "bitch." Third, the fact that he had to discard the 7 year (or whatever) gap that the final three books hinged on. Now he's forced to solve all sorts of plot problems he had never planned for. Suddenly the Stark kids and Dany are a struggle to write. Fourth, he has made comments that he prefers writing quasi-historical fantasy (I guess this means drawing heavily from actual history and realistic medieval cultures, but light on magic/monsters), struggles to write magical chars and events, and actually despises heavy doses of it in fantasy lit. Noticeably absent from AFFC were all of the heavily magical characters: Bran, Dany, even Melisandre and the Others.

Unfortunately, the birth of the dragons coincides with the reintroduction of 'magic' into the world of Westeros. Good luck, GRRM.

Erm. GRRM has frequently said that he finds Tyrion the easiest character to write for. I think he's also said he finds it fairly straightforward to write Jon and Dany as well. The fact that those three characters have the bulk of POV chapters in ADWD (as I understand it) indicates he should be finding ADWD easier to write than AFFC. OTOH, the character he struggles with the most is Bran, who is also in ADWD. However, I don't think he has that many chapters.

[AverageGuy]

But are you are saying that all authors recommend sitting on the chair even if they are getting nowhere fast?

Well, this is the response one author had to aspiring writers in his FAQ:

write. Write every day, even if it is only a page or two.

Though I too doubt that GRRM doesn't at least try to write whenever he's home. Martin's delays seem to stem from rewrites. Prolific authors I've read about - for example, Hobb and King - say that they do one complete draft before rewriting, and thus they can release a book a year. Martin constantly goes back and rewrites old chapters. So he'll write every day, but often it's the same few pages.