Boxeo- The BIG one! 2nd big fight of the year; Pac-man v. Hatton, reactions!

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='LessThanLuke' post='1517420' date='Sep 14 2008, 10.07']I think DLH will be too big but if anyone can suprise me it will be Manny. Looking forward to it.

On another note Forrest beat Mora in their rematch. Pretty easily I read as well.[/quote]

Damn. Didn't hear about that second one. Wonder if that'll be replayed as well. Kind of a pity. Forrest is older than my grandma and really doesn't have much left even if he did top Mora. Mora is extremely charismatic, gives a great, intelligent interview, and could've been good for the sport....if he himself was any good. I never really thought he had the talent to play with the elite fighters. And that seems to be confirmed.

[lessthanluke]

[quote name='EHK for Obama' post='1517426' date='Sep 14 2008, 16.18']Damn. Didn't hear about that second one. Wonder if that'll be replayed as well. Kind of a pity. Forrest is older than my grandma and really doesn't have much left even if he did top Mora. Mora is extremely charismatic, gives a great, intelligent interview, and could've been good for the sport....if he himself was any good. I never really thought he had the talent to play with the elite fighters. And that seems to be confirmed.[/quote]

Yeh I like Mora as a person. Seems cool.

Heres what bbc webstie wrote about it:

On the same card, Vernon Forrest dominated Sergio Mora from start to finish to regain the WBC light-middleweight title with a unanimous 12-round decision.

Mora had surprised Forrest with a majority decision victory to claim the belt on 7 June.

But Forrest emphatically avenged that defeat, using a strong left jab and big overhand right as he earned scores of 118-109, 117-110 and 119-108 at the MGM Grand.

"I had to prove that I had a bad night (last time)," Forrest said. "Anybody can have a bad night. I controlled him with the jab. It was basic boxing."

Forrest improved to 41-3, with 29 knockouts. Mora fell to 21-1-1, with five wins inside the distance.

[dits]

Forrest manhandled Mora. Don't think I scored a single round for Mora. Wasn't able to see their first bout but I just couldn't imagine how Mora won that. I guess Forrest did have a bad night that time.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='dits' post='1517858' date='Sep 14 2008, 18.24']Forrest manhandled Mora. Don't think I scored a single round for Mora. Wasn't able to see their first bout but I just couldn't imagine how Mora won that. I guess Forrest did have a bad night that time.[/quote]

I saw the first one on a repeat. Forrest had a much lower work rate, he was often sloppy, and he got very visibly gassed in the later rounds. It wasn't a smackdown by any means, but I thought it was a fairly clear Mora victory and I was actually surprised that the scores were as close as they were.

[Mathis]

[quote name='EHK for Obama' post='1517412' date='Sep 14 2008, 15.56']Gonna have to wait on the Casamayor as it was PPV. Replay in a week.[/quote]

Nope. HBO broacasted it but didn't 'produce' it. They got no re-broadcasting rights for that fight.

It wasn't unmissable. Not a bad fight but very tactical. I suppose thats to be expected from two counterpunchers. Good for Marquez though, he took on and knocked out the linear champion (though I think Casamayor was gifted his win against Santa Cruz) while Pacquiao cherrypicked the weakest 'champion' in the division.

I look forward to Pacquiao/Marquez 3. Pacquiao has De La Hoya and there's talk of a fight with Hatton if Ricky beats Malignaggi. After that it should happen.

I was seriously pissed off with Joan Guzman. I stayed up until 4.00am to watch the fight only for that fucking joker to pull out. What a disgrace. Nate Campbell is on record saying that he would have been willing to fight catchweight so WTF is Guzman doing pulling out?

Thats two weeks running for me. Last Saturday I stayed up on the mistaken assumption that Setanta would be showing Diaz/Katsidis. The Home of Boxing, my bollox. What a cowboy outfit.

I agree that its a shame that Mora turned out to be average, though not all that surprising considering he's a reality TV contender.

Some intruiging fights coming up. The aforementioned Hatton/Malignaggi should be fun, as will De La Hoya/Pacquiao. Calzaghe/Jones Jr. is all about the money but should still be worth watching. I'll definately be watching Pavlik/Hopkins in the hope that Pavlik puts B-Hop on his arse.

Also, call off the search! Winky Wright is alive and well and will be fighting Arthur Abraham. I pick Abraham for that, Winky hasn't fought since forever.

[EHK for Darwin]

Any thoughts for the fight tonight? Mosely v. Mayorga? Basically a near legend vs. a guy whose career is based on shit-talking. Both over the hill in Boxing terms, with Mosely a bit older. But I think Mosely absolutely has a few more in him. And he easily has the speed, strength and skill to put Mayorga out sometime in the mid-rounds. (My prediction)

But what I'm really interested in is Andre Berto who has the potential to be the future of this overpowered division. Amazing speed and good accuracy. PBF level here. Unfortunately he doesn't have PBF level defense or savvy, so he's got a ways to go. Also a bit frustrated with his rather slow progression. He has enough fights to take a big step up in class, and while Steve Forbes ain't a chump, he's still not quite that step. Berto is no longer merely a prospect and I wish his promoters would stop treating him as one. Berto should be making fights with some of the second tier fighters in the division.

If he's not ready for a real test like a Quintana, Cintron, Judah, or Collazo than he never will be. (I hesitate to call these 'second tier' guys since they are great fighters. But the fact is Welterweight is such a loaded division and even these names are a step below the Cotto's, Margaritto's, and PW's.)

In other new, PW (Paul Williams) jumped to Middleweight and added yet another first round knockout this week. Thursday I think. Been impressed with his relative shift in style. He's putting alot more power into his punches and scoring early knockouts instead of cruising to workrate based UD's as he previously did. VERY much preferable to his past slapfests IMO. I'd be very interested to see him take this new focus on power to the elites of the MW or Welterweight division. But its quite possible that noone wants him. Though I think Cotto would fair much better against him than Margaritto did. (PW has a decent chin, but he is not withstanding the early punishment that Margaritto did from Cotto) I wouldn't mind seeing that fight.

October and November seem to be fairly stacked with big fights. Hatton v. Malligini. Pavlik v. B-hop. ODH v. Manny. Calzaghe v. RJJ. Maybe not the best fights for pure boxing fanatics since there's alot of geriatrics there, but a couple 'passing the torch' kinda fights and all solid money fights.

[EHK for Darwin]

Berto was competent and gave a respectable performance. Not quite as dominant as in past fights. But when you're fighting a wily veteran whose never been knocked down once in his career, I guess you take the W any way it comes.

Mosely/Mayorga....what an awesome finish. KO with 1 second left in the 12th round. I can't remember the last time I saw anything like that. Mayorga stayed in it much more effectively than I thought he would, but that judge who had it scored for Mayorga was on crack. Glad Mosely closed it out so we didn't have to deal with that BS.

But I've got to say...I love Mayorga. Talks crap all day, everyday. Gets creative with it. Trains with a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other. A thoroughly sloppy and dirty fighter who cries bloody murder the second someone comes close to giving back in kind.

The man is not a boxer. He's a WWE heel. Seriously man, I was expecting his corner guy to distract the ref. while Mayorga clubbed Mosely over the head with a steel chair. This guy is hilarious. Boxing needs more characters.

[Ser Barry]

You must be right about Mayorga because I have rarely taken such a dislike so quickly to a fighter. What a prick! Incredible finish but I guess that goes without saying. Moseley really puzzled me, how many times did he close the distance without throwing a punch? He also looked gassed at the end of the 5th and hardly threw at all during the 7th, 8th and 9th. I think that the judging could have gone either way. The UK commentators really annoyed me by following their usual MO of judging a fighter by his past performances rather than what was in front of them. Moseley did not fight as they expected so he must be losing :rolleyes: I would have scored it for Moseley in the end but he needed to win those last 2 rounds and I guess he definitely did :)

[dits]

Ah dammit! Didn't catch the fight. Heard about the amazing finish at a boxing forum I frequent and was just disappointed they didn't show it locally. That's the breaks I guess. We get free PPV star quality matches for free but we miss out on low key matches that may turn out amazing.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]The UK commentators really annoyed me by following their usual MO of judging a fighter by his past performances rather than what was in front of them. Moseley did not fight as they expected so he must be losing rolleyes2.gif I would have scored it for Moseley in the end but he needed to win those last 2 rounds and I guess he definitely did smiley2.gif[/quote]

That's kind of odd. All the HBO announcers had it comfortably for Mosely, though they did acknowledge that some of Mosely's limited action in the mid to later rounds could've made it close. But even when Mosely wasn't working much, Mayorga wasn't landing shit. One of the worst compubox percentages I've ever heard of.

Though I will agree that this is the weakest performance by Mosely that I can remember. Than again he's fighting above his ideal weight against a guy whose 10 pounds heavier than he is (how the hell do you rehydrate 20 pounds almost?), with a frustrating, wild, and very unconventional style.

[Analu]

Personally, I was pretty disappointed in both fights.

Kept hearing about Berto's unreal hand speed and power, and while they're definitely strengths of his, I wasn't exactly blown away. Or maybe I'm just not giving Forbes enough credit.

Mayorga comes at you from all angles and uses his theatrics to piss off and annoy his opponents into making rash decisions, but I expected a vastly superior (skill-wise) fighter like Mosely to put him away faster.

Anyways, I'm slowly returning to paying more attention to boxing (not that anyone cares) and am looking forward to the 24/7 episodes of the upcoming fights: Pavlik/Hopkins, Calzaghe/RJJ, DLH/Pacquiao. Planning to reorder HBO before these episodes start airing.

[EHK for Darwin]

Well Showtime had a few fights tonight. Pretty much the kickoff of these next 2 months of big fights to end the year.

Vitali makes the triumphant return after a 4 year layoff shocking everyone by first making it to the ring without breaking something and than picking apart Sam Peter with ease. Skill, power, and precision on display as he more or less pummeled a hapless Peter at his leisure, causing the fighter to retire on the stool after the 8th. I can't say that Peter landed a meaningful shot anytime during the fight. He has one punch power, but his skills have always been suspected. I know he's frustrated by the big, tall fighters, but this was still an absolute regression from a fighter that was supposed to have been much improved technically. He had no answer for anything Vitali threw at him and his tactic seemed to be blocking punches with his head.

No signs of exhaustion or ring rust from the 37 year old Vitali. His power, speed, and workrate seemed fairly consistent throughout the 8 rounds. (although that might have been different were he fighting someone who actually hit him) Defensively sound (fought like the big man he is), technically sound, the Klitchko brother with the chin who actually bothers to throw combinations is back. (Always preferred Vitali anyway. Vlad pisses me off sometimes)

Which of course means that the heavyweight division is fucked yet again because the dual champion (what a bullshit moniker. You can toss create all the alphabet titles you like, there is only one champion per weight class) K brothers are never gonna fight eachother and it won't be unified til they get beat or retire once again.

At this time, I'm jumping on Haye bandwagon. Sure he probably doesn't have a chance against the modern day Goliath heavyweight, but he's a damned entertaining fighter and personality who has the best chance of infusing some life into this grossly faded division.


And a changing of the guard fight between Tarver and Chad Dawson where youth was served. When you have the edge on power, precision, workrate, hand speed and defense...you're probably gonna win the fight. Dawson simply landed much harder, more often, flusher, and with greater effect. Nice body work too. It was entertaining all around even though it was a blowout. Tarver should ideally consider this a swan song and Dawson can look on to bigger and better things.

[lessthanluke]

[quote name='EHK for Obama' post='1552850' date='Oct 12 2008, 09.19']Well Showtime had a few fights tonight. Pretty much the kickoff of these next 2 months of big fights to end the year.

Vitali makes the triumphant return after a 4 year layoff shocking everyone by first making it to the ring without breaking something and than picking apart Sam Peter with ease. Skill, power, and precision on display as he more or less pummeled a hapless Peter at his leisure, causing the fighter to retire on the stool after the 8th. I can't say that Peter landed a meaningful shot anytime during the fight. He has one punch power, but his skills have always been suspected. I know he's frustrated by the big, tall fighters, but this was still an absolute regression from a fighter that was supposed to have been much improved technically. He had no answer for anything Vitali threw at him and his tactic seemed to be blocking punches with his head.

No signs of exhaustion or ring rust from the 37 year old Vitali. His power, speed, and workrate seemed fairly consistent throughout the 8 rounds. (although that might have been different were he fighting someone who actually hit him) Defensively sound (fought like the big man he is), technically sound, the Klitchko brother with the chin who actually bothers to throw combinations is back. (Always preferred Vitali anyway. Vlad pisses me off sometimes)

Which of course means that the heavyweight division is fucked yet again because the dual champion (what a bullshit moniker. You can toss create all the alphabet titles you like, there is only one champion per weight class) K brothers are never gonna fight eachother and it won't be unified til they get beat or retire once again.

At this time, I'm jumping on Haye bandwagon. Sure he probably doesn't have a chance against the modern day Goliath heavyweight, but he's a damned entertaining fighter and personality who has the best chance of infusing some life into this grossly faded division.


And a changing of the guard fight between Tarver and Chad Dawson where youth was served. When you have the edge on power, precision, workrate, hand speed and defense...you're probably gonna win the fight. Dawson simply landed much harder, more often, flusher, and with greater effect. Nice body work too. It was entertaining all around even though it was a blowout. Tarver should ideally consider this a swan song and Dawson can look on to bigger and better things.[/quote]

Before the fight I couldn't see anything but an easy Vitali win as long as he was fit. Peter has always been woefully limited.

About Haye. The guy is 6"3 and over 220lbs. He is not small :) I can't wait to see him destroy Monte Barrett.

Didn't even know about the Tarver - Dawson fight. Dunno how I missed that, will have to find a replay of it somewhere.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='LessThanLuke' post='1552886' date='Oct 12 2008, 04.45']Before the fight I couldn't see anything but an easy Vitali win as long as he was fit. Peter has always been woefully limited.

About Haye. The guy is 6"3 and over 220lbs. He is not small :) I can't wait to see him destroy Monte Barrett.

Didn't even know about the Tarver - Dawson fight. Dunno how I missed that, will have to find a replay of it somewhere.[/quote]

Everything seemed to be stacked in Vitali's favor except for 2 BIG keys. 37 years old and a 4 year layoff. I figured that'd be enough to get Peter in a position to hurt him and potentially take things from there. Guess not. He looked good, quite impressive. But it still further stagnates an already ugly division. At least he's not averse to having an entertaining fight like his brother seems to be. If he can avoid injury, maybe he can give the division something more to watch.

As for Haye, he's still giving up 20-30 pds to some of these bigger heavyweights. While he was a big cruiserweight...he was still a cruiser. And he got dropped several times by some of those 'smaller' (compared to heavyweights) guys. I don't like his chin against an elite (as elite as it gets in the HW division), big punching heavyweight. But I would certainly love to be proven wrong.

[Mathis]

That was the second time I saw Sam Peter fight, the other being when he got floored three times by Jameel McLine. Heavyweight really is a weak division when Sam Peter is the number 2 ranked fighter.

Vitali looked ok but he wasn't pushed in any way. Haye may not have the strongest chin but if he got in a ring with Vitali you can bet Klitschko would have his hands up at least. Klitschko was taking very deep breaths towards the end of the fight, who knows how he would handle 12 rounds?

Peter was shockingly one dimensional. The sad thing is that he couldn't even clinch whenever he tried to come in. Also, how about a little discipline in training? Peter has always been chunky but last night he was overweight, plain and simple. Lay off the pasta.

What does everone think of the new scheme where the scores are read out every 4 rounds? I'm not sure. I think if Peter didn't have official confirmation that he was so far behind he might have come out for another round or two.


Chad Dawson looked good last night. Far better than he did against Johnson where he got hurt a few times. Tarver looked weak. Even in his winning rounds he never convinced me that he could hurt Dawson.

OTOH I think Dawson and his camp missed an opportunity. There were rounds where Dawson took a step back and just blocked. I presume it was to drag the fight out a little so Tarver would show his age? Why didn't he press the pace from start to finish?

Dawson wants Joe Calzaghe, but why the hell would Calzaghe get in a ring with Dawson? One hell of a risk for no money. It looked as though there were barely two thousand people in attendance last night. An eyecatching knockout would have raised his profile in the way Pavlik's went up after he pancaked Miranda. Thats why I think the game plan was maybe too timid, Tarver looked there for the taking.


Pavlik/Hopkins next week. I hope Pavlik can land some hard shots early on because I don't know if I can handle another B-Hop snoozefest.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]Dawson wants Joe Calzaghe, but why the hell would Calzaghe get in a ring with Dawson? One hell of a risk for no money. It looked as though there were barely two thousand people in attendance last night. An eyecatching knockout would have raised his profile in the way Pavlik's went up after he pancaked Miranda. Thats why I think the game plan was maybe too timid, Tarver looked there for the taking.[/quote]

Chad Dawson is an exciting fighter, but he fights to win rounds and matches, not to finish opponents. Which is unfortunate since he could finish several of them and make himself more marketable in the process. Jumped up club fighters can make a bundle in boxing if they're exciting enough. And there is top tier talent that can't make a meaningful fight because they're dreadfully boring and there's no money in it. (Looking your way Winky...although to be fair, he could make some fights if he'd lower his demands and expectations...but the fact is, for the amount of talent and wins he has...he's not a very marketable fighter) Dawson will be a draw in boxing of course. As I said, he's exciting. But not as big a one as he could be if he'd start putting opponents away instead of contentedly pointing his way to victory.

As for his round give-aways, I liked the one in the sixth. That was his big 'fuck you' to Tarver. That even if I don't throw punches...even if I just stand here for you...you can't hurt me. You're nothing. It was psychological and potentially demoralizing. If he would have followed it up with some utter destruction in the 7th and 8th it would have been a much better statement though.

As for Calzaghe, he's a money guy now. A lesser ODH. (moneywise) Everyone in and around that weight class wants to make fights with him before he retires because they think they can beat him at his age and because there's big money involved. He can have his pick of the litter. But you're right, Dawson doesn't bring much to the table yet. But a Pavlik/Calzaghe fight would. That would be the ideal changing of the guard/big money/go out on a legit note fight. I absolutely wanted to see that instead of this Roy Jones crap.

[quote]That was the second time I saw Sam Peter fight, the other being when he got floored three times by Jameel McLine. Heavyweight really is a weak division when Sam Peter is the number 2 ranked fighter.[/quote]

I saw those and his Maskaev fight, one in which his game seemed better rounded and his technique much improved. He had actually discovered a jab (not a good one, but competent) He still employed those illegal rabbit punches, but not as much as in previous fights. Showed his clubbing power, the occasional combination, and went on to a convincing enough knockout. Given Klitchko's age, layoff, and injury history I thought he had more question marks than Peter at this point. If it was a fight in their respective primes, I didn't think it would be a contest. Guess I'd just gotten used to Klitchko brothers continually failing to meet expectations.

As for open scoring, I'm against it in all forms. Besides quitting when a fight seems out of reach, you also raise the potential of ahead fighters running around the last several rounds when they have a prohibitive lead. (which happened all the damned time in the Olympics) The psychological frustration of a fighter losing a round they thought they should have won. Its quite simply a distraction that a fighter doesn't need in the middle of a fight that can in a number of scenarios lead to a less competitive and less exciting fight.

[Calibandar]

I caught this one live on a German channel in the weekend as well. I was bored though, I thought it would be much more spectacular. Proved to me once more that the K1 fighting is much more interetsing than regular boxing. Plus that is where the Dutch rule the world ;)

Klitchko deserved the victory in every way of course, he did well but his opponent just looked really, really weak.

[dits]

Totally flummoxed about the Hopkins-Pavlik fight. Pavlik's star was supposed to be the ascendant and Hopkin's sun should have set. Well, Bhop totally dominated the fight. He took Pavlik to school. In fact, Pavlik should pay him for that boxing lesson.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='dits' post='1560660' date='Oct 19 2008, 02.46']Totally flummoxed about the Hopkins-Pavlik fight. Pavlik's star was supposed to be the ascendant and Hopkin's sun should have set. Well, Bhop totally dominated the fight. He took Pavlik to school. In fact, Pavlik should pay him for that boxing lesson.[/quote]

Read about the result on ESPN.com, color me shocked as hell. Yeah B-hop is a crafty fucker, but he's a 43 year old crafty fucker who appeared to be in 'cash a few checks, pass the torch, and retire into the sunset' mode. Pavlik was supposed to have been a battle tested elite talent in his prime. The fight wasn't gonna be a cakewalk, but most people were thinking decisive (enough) victory by the younger, fresher Pavlik. I'll have to wait for the replay again.

Really kind of sucks, cause Pavlik was pretty much the most impressive and most marketable American talent in the sport.

That said, props to Hopkins. Defied my expectations and likely everyone elses. The reviews say it was also a high action, pretty exciting fight. Not the usual B-hop snoozefest. So there go more expectations. Really like B-hop's pep talk after the fight. (even the 'slickness of black fighters' comment gave me a chuckle)

[quote]"Don't let this fight destroy you," Hopkins told him. "You're a great middleweight champion. You have a great heart. Keep your head up. Keep fighting. You have to learn one thing. You have to learn that slickness that black fighters have and then you'll really be a great champion. I don't want you to quit. If I have to go to your house and take you to the gym, I will."[/quote]

For the guys who saw it, how much of a factor do you think the size issue was? Pavlik typically fights at 160 and this bout was at 170. Was B-hop visibly bigger out there or no? Do you think this will get outsized youths to reconsider jumping up to take big money geriatric fights?

[Mathis]

I enjoyed that fight. Far more entertaining than Hopkins against Calzaghe or Winky.

[quote name='EHK for Obama' post='1560683' date='Oct 19 2008, 12.27']For the guys who saw it, how much of a factor do you think the size issue was? Pavlik typically fights at 160 and this bout was at 170. Was B-hop visibly bigger out there or no? Do you think this will get outsized youths to reconsider jumping up to take big money geriatric fights?[/quote]

Pavlik is a big guy with similar height and reach to Hopkins and even at 169 he still looked kinda skinny. OTOH he fought like shit, and putting ten pounds on must make some difference to the body.

My opinion is that Pavlik bottled it. I'm not saying that the added weight didn't have some effect but I can't believe 9 pounds on a man with his frame could account for the complete one sidedness of the contest. Pavlik was getting outclassed like in the early part of his first fight with Taylor but in that fight he stuck to his jab, alternating with hooks and those hard, straight right punches. This time, none of that.

He looked like a rabbit in the headlights. Towards the middle of the fight he kept coming forward throwing one straight right shot and ducking, no jab, no combinations, and so almost everytime B-Hop would rock him with some truly impressive shots. In a few rounds Hopkins was even winding up his punches before letting them go, just toying and taunting.

There were also all the hallmarks of a Hopkins fight, clinching, hitting the back of the head, elbows, headbutts. And there was some more over acting to gain some time off in later rounds. Though one of those was legitimate, Pavlik was getting so frustrated that he was punching the back of the head which is something I've never seen him do. Hopkins really got to him.

Hopkins is a freak of nature. He's gone 24 rounds with Calzaghe and Pavlik; two undefeated, top 10 P4P fighters and undisputed champions of their divisions, and he didn't get a scratch on his face. Not even a busted lip as he put it.


Pavlik is in a tough spot right now. He'll have to go back down to middleweight to rebuild but if he plans on staying there long term he'll have to face Abraham. No reason to think Abraham couldn't win that contest.

Hopkins has said he will 'maybe' fight again. Only fights I can think of are Dawson or a rematch with Roy Jones if he beats Calzaghe. Based on last night's fight I will never doubt Hopkins again.