Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
LugaJetboyGirl-irra

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 3 but actually Jon 1

Recommended Posts

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1309137' date='Apr 10 2008, 19.05']Where does this intel come from do they have spies in the watch? Do they torture their victoms? Do they sneek into Castle Black in the middle of the night to find out its layout? I pretty sure not. Thus it comes from the wights.[/quote]
[i]The Others have a thousand eyes, a thousand eyes and blue. little "dead" birds[/i]. I think the information could have come from rangers, that ware unaware of dead animals that were listening. Although I don't think it is nessesary that they had that intelligence, they looked as if they felt superiour. One Wight they could have "wighted" to the tower, because it made sense that was the place of some sort of commander. The seconds was "wighted" another way, I don't have my books with me, but could it be that he just tried to kill the one that shouted the commands?


[quote]There no luck required here. Jafar and Othor already know their not going to be burned on site because they haven't seen the NW burn anyone their entire service. And they know that being former NW men who died where their bodies would be taken until their burried back on the other side of the wall, and escape what being an unguarded corpse placed in storage? All of these are details the the two wights would have at their disposal.[/quote] Aha, I didn't look at it this way, the Wights would know ofcourse, didn't think about that. But how do you think it worked then? The Others substracted the information and gave the wights the entire plan, or did they gave the Wights their goals and did the Wights figure out themselves how to do it?

The problem I have mostly with this, is that the Others also wighted animals. And also people that were in their graves for a very long time. How do you give them clear instructions? How could anOther ride a horse? Edited by Roi Woodt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1308685' date='Apr 10 2008, 00.57']How about, he was a corpse, wightified by the Others. The children found the wandering (or sleeping/resting) corpse, were able to perform the dead-awakening ceremony, the kiss of fire. The corpse got his memory back (like Beric and Cat), the Others lost their abilty to "wight" coldhands, because he could think for himself again and won't allow the Others to take control over his body again. No new magic is needed. Didn't Coldhands have those blue, glowing eyes? If not, "the kiss of fire" alone could explain his autonomy as well.[/quote]
Right, wightification is just an unnecessary extra step because a "kiss of fire" equivalent could have returned a frozen Benjen to post-life.

And no, Coldhands did not have blue eyes: "He wasn't a green man. He wore blacks, like a brother of the Watch, but he was pale as a wight, with hands so cold that at first I was afraid. The wights have blue eys, though, and they don't have tongues, or they've forgotten how to use them." (Sam, p. 770 ASOS Spectra paperback.) In fact, I'm not at this moment sure his hands were black; maybe they were just cold.

BTW, I seem to remember somebody saying about the weirwoods talking to all others via their roots - dwarf woman, Meera or Jojen? I like the idea of under-Wall communication. Edited by AvengingAryaFan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AvengingAryaFan,

From Samwell's chapter where they first meet Coldhands:

[quote]His hand was black and cold, with fingers hard as stone.[/quote]

As to the eyes, note that when Small Paul is burned, Sam notices:

[quote]And his eyes . . . It's gone, the blue glow is gone.[/quote]

The blue eyes in particular seem to be a sign of the control the Others have over the wights, or their sorcery driving it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1309286' date='Apr 10 2008, 13.15']Shortly before that, Varamyr sensed the presence of Bran and co, who also would have the stink of warging about them.[/quote]

I got the same impression from ACoK; that Varamyr only attacked (via Orell's bird) once Jon was warged into Ghost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I thought of another compairson between Jon and another Character. His threat to Gilly's child is rather reminicent of Jamie's threat to kill Edmure Tully's child if he didn't surrender Riverrun. Jamie being on a road of attempted redemption while Jon is dealing with the hard realities of the impending fight agains the Others makes the compairson interesting. I wonder if they will continue to parallel?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've previously suggested that there are more parallels between Jaime and Jon, starting in ASoS. Consider Jaime's dilemma regarding his oaths and his duties during the Kingslaying, and his apparent resolution that ultimately the oaths are there to serve the realm and that they should always be examined in that light. Compare to Halfhand teaching Jon that his oaths are also there to bind him to the service of the realm, and that if that means violating some of those oaths, so be it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great points! I love all these parallels between characters and I've pointed out before how I think there is the same sort of interesting parallel between Ned and Jaime, of all people. I mean, on the surface, there could not be two more different men and yet they both have had to choose between conflicting loyalties/oaths while paying a high price for their decisions. Of course, it should almost go without saying at this point but I'm assuming R+L=J :)

Also, I think it's interesting that Ned (the paragon of honor), when faced with choosing between his honor or loyalty to family, doesn't seem to hesitate in choosing loyalty to family in at least two huge instances. The two times I'm talking about are taking the hit to his honor by claiming to have fathered a bastard in order to protect him and taking the hit to his honor by "confessing" to treason to protect his daughters. Now, the second instance can easily be seen as really having no "choice" at all. But still he [i]could[/i] have tried to spill the beans on the Lannisters and he didn't because of the threat to his daughters.

I guess I just sort of interpret this as Martin showing us that sometimes those who willingly sacrifice their honor in order to do the "right" thing are being the most honorable of all ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1310076' date='Apr 11 2008, 00.58']Aha, I didn't look at it this way, the Wights would know ofcourse, didn't think about that. But how do you think it worked then? The Others substracted the information and gave the wights the entire plan, or did they gave the Wights their goals and did the Wights figure out themselves how to do it?

The problem I have mostly with this, is that the Others also wighted animals. And also people that were in their graves for a very long time. How do you give them clear instructions? How could anOther ride a horse?[/quote]

I'd go with, more or less "the Others substracted the information and gave the wights the entire plan," since I dont see the wights as real plotters in the group just foot soldiers, I could see it going something like this Jafar and Othor gets wighted, the Others get a buch of info out of the two of them, they decied it be best to get in a quick attack on the NW leaders then decied that having the NW find the two dead rangers they're looking for is the least suspicous, give Jafar and Othor instructions to kill Mormont and Rykker quietly when they come to. Thus the Others came up with the general outline but the wights filled in the little blanks.

I don't see how this makes it hard to control the animals either, an animal being wighted under this theory would have the same singular desire to please its master.
Living thinking animals take instructions easy enough why would wighted ones be more difficult, it may alternatively be that the Others who I beleive can get info from their wights easily can also communicate with their wighted animals in the same manner although I'd gather there's not alot to be gained from a horses prior knowledge. Edited by cybroleach

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1297323' date='Apr 2 2008, 05.50']OtL,



I'm 90% certian Slynt was hung by the neck.[/quote]

Then that would be a mistake by GRRM. The maximum drop when hanging a full-grown man is about ten feet. Any more results in decapitation. Well, it is a fantasy, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1310076' date='Apr 11 2008, 00.58']Aha, I didn't look at it this way, the Wights would know ofcourse, didn't think about that. But how do you think it worked then? The Others substracted the information and gave the wights the entire plan, or did they gave the Wights their goals and did the Wights figure out themselves how to do it?[/quote]

The latter, I bet. unOthor has enough presence of mind to kill a guard silently; I think 'he' could handle other tactical details.

[quote]The problem I have mostly with this, is that the Others also wighted animals. And also people that were in their graves for a very long time. How do you give them clear instructions? How could anOther ride a horse?[/quote]

Wait... are you a proponent of the Mance created Others theory? Because that's been fairly well disproven. Unless you mean other people that have been in their graves for a long time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='cybroleach' post='1310756' date='Apr 11 2008, 22.39']I'd go with, more or less "the Others substracted the information and gave the wights the entire plan," since I dont see the wights as real plotters in the group just foot soldiers, I could see it going something like this Jafar and Othor gets wighted, the Others get a buch of info out of the two of them, they decied it be best to get in a quick attack on the NW leaders then decied that having the NW find the two dead rangers they're looking for is the least suspicous, give Jafar and Othor instructions to kill Mormont and Rykker quietly when they come to. Thus the Others came up with the general outline but the wights filled in the little blanks.

I don't see how this makes it hard to control the animals either, an animal being wighted under this theory would have the same singular desire to please its master.
Living thinking animals take instructions easy enough why would wighted ones be more difficult, it may alternatively be that the Others who I beleive can get info from their wights easily can also communicate with their wighted animals in the same manner although I'd gather there's not alot to be gained from a horses prior knowledge.[/quote]
What if the entire plan the Other somehow communicated to the horse is: "We go to the Wall", and then they encounter Sam. How can the Others change the plans for their Wights? Changing "Kill humans on the Fist" into "Kill humans near the Wall". Or if you read the prologue chapter, "kill Varamyr", into "kill the wolf he just went into..." etc. It looks like they have a way of changing their Wights plans.


[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1311396' date='Apr 12 2008, 18.00']The latter, I bet. unOthor has enough presence of mind to kill a guard silently; I think 'he' could handle other tactical details.[/quote] I have no good arguments anymore, but I don't think they work this way. Imo it would be somewhat more realistic if they were remote controlled, instead of impregnated with a goal to achieve.

[quote]Wait... are you a proponent of the Mance created Others theory? Because that's been fairly well disproven. Unless you mean other people that have been in their graves for a long time?[/quote] I meant the latter. I am not a proponent of Mance creating Others, that does not make sence to me. Craster was the one giving his babies away though, maybe the theory was about him, not that he himself created Others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1314858' date='Apr 15 2008, 09.33']What if the entire plan the Other somehow communicated to the horse is: "We go to the Wall", and then they encounter Sam. How can the Others change the plans for their Wights? Changing "Kill humans on the Fist" into "Kill humans near the Wall". Or if you read the prologue chapter, "kill Varamyr", into "kill the wolf he just went into..." etc. It looks like they have a way of changing their Wights plans.[/quote]

The Horse is simple since the Other is riding it shouldn't be too hard to change orders on the fly.
The orders at the fist could have just been to "kill all the NWmen there", that's why they follow NWmen after the first battle and keep killing them but like the TFM said I also believe they can handle some of the smaller tactical details.
AND with Varamyr (unless the chapter was changed again since I saw it): we're seeing two different sets of wights one sent to kill him and does while the second are after Bran & Co where Varamyr's wolves just happen to be, thus they'd have different orders to begin with Bran himself being a warg the wights after him were likely supposed to kill his beasts thus seeing Varamyr in wolf might just be bad luck for him since they were already looking to kill wargs there. Edited by cybroleach

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm beginning to think there's more "auto-pilot" to the wights and their MO then a back and forth communcation with some "wightmaster" with perceptions and commands being relayed back and forth constantly. We've seen enough of the wights "herdlike" nature to support that assertion. The wights are attracted to the living and are imbued with a will to snuff that life out. Seems pretty simple.

That the wights attack specific groups or targets is also evident in the books, which implies either the influence of a higher intelligence (not much, but enough), or the fact that the "auto-pilot" imbued in the wights starts to incorporate the memories of the wight itself and thus develop "prime lives" or targets to snuff out.

We just don't know enough yet, but something tells me this mystery will be much clearer by the time I reach the end of DwD. I can only hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Benjen:

Increasingly I'm coming to agree with you about the wightmaster idea. The wights have some herd instincts, will (left to their own devices) attack and snuff out the closest form of life around, but also are residually intelligent and capable of acting on their own and following orders like footsoldiers for an army.

RW:

[quote]I meant the latter. I am not a proponent of Mance creating Others, that does not make sence to me. Craster was the one giving his babies away though, maybe the theory was about him, not that he himself created Others.[/quote]

Well, then, which people long in their grave were you referring to? Edited by The Fat Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='cybroleach' post='1314964' date='Apr 15 2008, 17.41']The Horse is simple since the Other is riding it shouldn't be too hard to change orders on the fly.
The orders at the fist could have just been to "kill all the NWmen there", that's why they follow NWmen after the first battle and keep killing them but like the TFM said I also believe they can handle some of the smaller tactical details.
AND with Varamyr (unless the chapter was changed again since I saw it): we're seeing two different sets of wights one sent to kill him and does while the second are after Bran & Co where Varamyr's wolves just happen to be, thus they'd have different orders to begin with Bran himself being a warg the wights after him were likely supposed to kill his beasts thus seeing Varamyr in wolf might just be bad luck for him since they were already looking to kill wargs there.[/quote]
I disagree, but I am out of arguments, or more specific, out of memory. It's time for a reread for me.

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1315002' date='Apr 15 2008, 18.02']Well, then, which people long in their grave were you referring to?[/quote]
I give up, I have no idea which people I am reffering to, my memory is unfortunately out of my reach. I thought the Others digged up people to wightify, but I have really no idea if that's right. I am unable to discuss any further, since I do not know if my arguments are real. I lost.

Benjen,
[quote]We just don't know enough yet, but something tells me this mystery will be much clearer by the time I reach the end of DwD. I can only hope.[/quote] Me too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does anybody have an idea as to how Craster managed to make his deal with the Others? How does he communicate with them? What's stopping the Others from simply swoop in and kill everybody at Craster's, sacrifice or no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Killing everyone would mean no more fresh babies, so I'd guess they prefer having fresh babies to having a few more dead people/wights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Other-in-law
Probably they just bill him. He gets a letter saying:
"[i]Account overdue![/i]
Current balance: 1 male human infant, payable on receipt.
Late payment fee: 2 chickens.

Avoid the risk of having your service disconnected by enrolling in our auto-pay plan."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Ran' post='1317826' date='Apr 17 2008, 09.52']Killing everyone would mean no more fresh babies, so I'd guess they prefer having fresh babies to having a few more dead people/wights.[/quote]

Why not simply wander around the Haunted Forest stealing babies from the other wildlings?
Also, why is it acceptable to substiute male babies for sheep? Can't the Others tell the diffrence?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×