Worst dad in Westeros

[fellow reader]

Leaving out the obvious front-runner...

Tywin's failures as a father ended up having a far greater impact on the world around him, but looking just at the level of neglect and abuse inflicted, I might give it to Randyll.

And a word about Ned (who I think is the best father seen thus far) - I agree that he endangered his children's lives by going to Cersei when he did. But, to give him due credit - he'd been working to get his daughters out of King's Landing before he even found out about Joff. By the time he does confront Cersei, the arrangements to get them out are set, and secret, and would've stayed that way if Sansa hadn't talked. Part of Robert's host had returned and the king was due back soon, and I think some people underestimate just how traumatic the deaths of the Targaryen children was for Ned. If I remember correctly, the text even has him thinking something to the effect of: I've made plans to get my daughters out, but I can't let that stop me from trying to save these kids (who, had Cersei fled with them, would've needed time to slip away before Robert returned). Robert's death shook up Ned's planning, especially by creating the need to try and immediately get control of the government.

He still took a risk, to his and his daugthers' grief, but he wasn't irresponsible.

Why did Ned not offer some captain a lot of money so that he immediately brings his daughters and a few guards north before he told Cersei that he knows her secret? No, sparing Robert a truth that would make his last moments unhappy, but would have prevented to be so easily painted as a traitor, was much more important. Bringing his daughters out of Kings Landing was the last of his priorities, the arrangement was still the one he made as he had his arguement with Robert and he thought he would also leave. The ship was planned to leave after his confrontation with Cersei, so the danger would have been be already over at that point, how could that have keept his daughters safe? Sansa told Cersei that Ned planned to send her and Arya away, but as I already said, it was planned after the confrontation in the throne room, so would have been too late. If Sansa had not gone to Cersei, she would have been in the Tower of the Hand as Cerseis men came to slaughter Neds household(Cersei would not have simply ignored them) and she would have witnessed that like Jeyne Poole. The only difference would be that she would have known that the fighting was a merciless slaughter of her fathers household, including unarmed people, which she did not because she was locked up in that room and just heard some people fighting without actually knowing what was going on. That would have made it harder for Cersei to play the part of the nice merciful future mother-in-law as she told Sansa to write those letters to her family members.

Sansa is not responsible for her captivity, she would have been if Ned had not warned Cersei and if he had not put all his trust in the childhood friend of his wife who did not really give him the impression to be that trustworthy, because only then Sansa would have been Cerseis best source of information. And Ned should have told her that she should not trust Cersei, the wife of his best friend, but he did not. He should have explained to Sansa who exactly was a danger for them and why she has to keep their departure a secret. And her infatuation with Joffrey and the beautiful queen would have come to a quick end if had told her that Cersei was a murderess(he thought she killed Jon Arryn and was responsible for Brans fall together with Jaime) and that her noble prince was actually a bastard born of incest with no claim to the throne. Ned just told her about Jaime who already had the bad reputation of the Kingsslayer, but he did not say that she should not trust his best friends wife, Sansa did not know what Ned knew about Cersei.

[ToTheWolves]

Catelyn stark.

[fellow reader]

Not many lords would have even kept Aegon around.

And after going to all that trouble to arrange the RW, Walder wasn't going to let Robb walk out alive in order to save a lackwit. Harsh, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same (if I was an evil bastard who planned the RW, lol)

Walder could have promised anything, and then after Catelyn released Aegon, he could have simply broken his promise again, he already commited the Red Wedding, so what wouls stop him from doing that? It was simply a desperate last attempt of a mother to save her son with no chance to actually work. Catelyn wanted that Robb could walk away alone, so after he was out of the hall and so out of Catelyns sight and after she reased Aegon, they could still catch or kill him outside, and Catelyn would not even see it.

Walder could have tried something, if he could not come up with anything else, then at least order the guys near Catelyn to try to intervene, but no, he outright said he did not give a damn about this grandson.

It was not a question of either saving Aegon by letting Robb get away or killing Robb by sacrificing Aegon. Robb could not have managed to get far. It was simply Walder Frey not caring one bit about the life of his grandson.

[sj4iy]

The guy who sold his son for a bottle of wine.

[Batbob45]

Ned was not that bad of a dad but he should of screen Joffrey by spending more time with him to see how bad of a person Joffrey was before trying to me Sansa to him.

[Dofs]

Is there a 700 ft wall seperating you from the rest of Europe?

Do you answer to no government but yourself?

My point was Craster doesn't live in the 7 Kingdoms, even though he lives on the continent of Westeros.

If this was all true, you would still say "in Europe", wouldn't you?

[Fisch]

Why did Ned not offer some captain a lot of money so that he immediately brings his daughters and a few guards north before he told Cersei that he knows her secret? No, sparing Robert a truth that would make his last moments unhappy, but would have prevented to be so easily painted as a traitor, was much more important. Bringing his daughters out of Kings Landing was the last of his priorities, the arrangement was still the one he made as he had his arguement with Robert and he thought he would also leave. The ship was planned to leave after his confrontation with Cersei, so the danger would have been be already over at that point, how could that have keept his daughters safe? Sansa told Cersei that Ned planned to send her and Arya away, but as I already said, it was planned after the confrontation in the throne room, so would have been too late. If Sansa had not gone to Cersei, she would have been in the Tower of the Hand as Cerseis men came to slaughter Neds household(Cersei would not have simply ignored them) and she would have witnessed that like Jeyne Poole. The only difference would be that she would have known that the fighting was a merciless slaughter of her fathers household, including unarmed people, which she did not because she was locked up in that room and just heard some people fighting without actually knowing what was going on. That would have made it harder for Cersei to play the part of the nice merciful future mother-in-law as she told Sansa to write those letters to her family members.

Sansa is not responsible for her captivity, she would have been if Ned had not warned Cersei and if he had not put all his trust in the childhood friend of his wife who did not really give him the impression to be that trustworthy, because only then Sansa would have been Cerseis best source of information. And Ned should have told her that she should not trust Cersei, the wife of his best friend, but he did not. He should have explained to Sansa who exactly was a danger for them and why she has to keep their departure a secret. And her infatuation with Joffrey and the beautiful queen would have come to a quick end if had told her that Cersei was a murderess(he thought she killed Jon Arryn and was responsible for Brans fall together with Jaime) and that her noble prince was actually a bastard born of incest with no claim to the throne. Ned just told her about Jaime who already had the bad reputation of the Kingsslayer, but he did not say that she should not trust his best friends wife, Sansa did not know what Ned knew about Cersei.

As I said, he took a risk and it cost him dearly. I just object to the idea that he was irresponsible, or that he didn't attempt to protect his daughters.

And I think it would be more accurate to say that the daughters were set to leave when the need for the confrontation in the throne room emerged, and there wasn't time to change the plan.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

What was he thinking when he said:

"Nothing would please me more than to hunt you down like the pig you are."?

Maybe that being a sadistic prick makes him a good father? :rolleyes:

Yeah, exactly. Hell, he could have simply convinced Sam to become a Maester. Its an honorable job, lots of reading, and he could do some good without needing to be a fighter. That's what a good father and a responsible lord in their setting would have done.

[imaginepageant]

And a word about Ned (who I think is the best father seen thus far) - I agree that he endangered his children's lives by going to Cersei when he did. But, to give him due credit - he'd been working to get his daughters out of King's Landing before he even found out about Joff. By the time he does confront Cersei, the arrangements to get them out are set, and secret, and would've stayed that way if Sansa hadn't talked. Part of Robert's host had returned and the king was due back soon, and I think some people underestimate just how traumatic the deaths of the Targaryen children was for Ned. If I remember correctly, the text even has him thinking something to the effect of: I've made plans to get my daughters out, but I can't let that stop me from trying to save these kids (who, had Cersei fled with them, would've needed time to slip away before Robert returned). Robert's death shook up Ned's planning, especially by creating the need to try and immediately get control of the government.

He still took a risk, to his and his daugthers' grief, but he wasn't irresponsible.

Yes, he was. He should have waited until his daughters were well away from King's Landing—or even home at Winterfell—before doing anything. He could have stayed in King's Landing to confront Cersei later. He could have gone with them, and sent her a raven warning her to take her children away before Robert received his own raven the following day. There were several different options that did not include angering the lion when his own children were still in her cage.

(Of course, had he waited for the girls to be safely away, he would never have had the opportunity to warn Cersei at all, with Robert coming back from the hunt mortally wounded. In which case, following Robert's death, Ned could have left King's Landing unimpeded, gone to Stannis with his discovery, and directly helped him launch a campaign for the throne, thus saving his daughters' from everything they've suffered, saving his own life, and giving Stannis some much-needed support.)

And the trauma of the Targaryen children's deaths should have made him even more apt to protect his own children. It was Tywin Lannister that ordered their deaths, was it not? Witnessing one of my enemies have two innocent children slaughtered would sure make me want to get my kids far, far away from said enemy before pissing them off.

[mormont]

Yes, he was. He should have waited until his daughters were well away from King's Landing—or even home at Winterfell—before doing anything.

He could. But by then Robert would have returned, and clearly Ned warns Cersei while Robert is away so that she can flee before he gets back. He was trying to be kind, he underestimated Cersei, and he assumed he was more in control of the situation than he actually was.

He should definitely have secured his position more before warning Cersei, though. That's reasonable.

(I strongly doubt that Ned would have been able to leave KL 'unimpeded' even if he hadn't warned Cersei, though. Cersei is not that stupid. Besides, he could not have taken Sansa with him, since she would still have been betrothed to Joff.)