Swordfish Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 [quote name='Commodore' post='1669355' date='Jan 31 2009, 09.39']McCaskill is outraged that people who make bad decisions continue to make them even after being bailed out. I'm outraged that she blew our money on these idiots. If I wanted to bail out a company I would buy stock in it. Don't need financial dynamos like Claire McCaskill allocating investment. Obviously she doesn't have a clue where it should go if she gave it to these idiots.[/quote] The most disheartening part to me is that people are still taken in by the kind of pure political rhetoric she is spewing. They've effectively transferred attention away from themselves and onto issue like this one, which is essentially a red herring. Nothing, apparently, will wake up the masses to reality. We are too addicted to the political grandstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 she's a former sec of treasury in missouri and iirc did impressive things there. I don't think she seriously expects to cap compensation. it's to make a point. these asshats are complete fuckups at doing their jobs--especially last year--and they're getting paid VAST sums of money more than the president. And by and large most of them fuckups are getting paid for being fuckups, not for doing their job well. Or at least that's the perception. Definitely grandstanding, but it's an awesome idea, and one a lot of people would be tempted to support, I'm sure. :D fuck the fuckers who've historically fucked us, I can imagine the masses essentially chanting. :-P personally a friend of mine in publishing lives in NYC in a decent apt with a decent landlord and makes less than 30,000 a year. she's basically paycheck to paycheck just out of college but she's still managed to save up one months pay in her savings account over the last few months. I'm sure Ice Queen finds that impossible. but you don't have to live and ultra expensive lifestyle in new york. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteQueen Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='lockesnow' post='1669412' date='Jan 31 2009, 14.03']personally a friend of mine in publishing lives in NYC in a decent apt with a decent landlord and makes less than 30,000 a year. she's basically paycheck to paycheck just out of college but she's still managed to save up one months pay in her savings account over the last few months. I'm sure Ice Queen finds that impossible. but you don't have to live and ultra expensive lifestyle in new york. :)[/quote] Surely by NYC you mean one of the boroughs. It is impossible to live in Manhattan with this salary, it's not just me, it's economics, common sense and market prices. Unless she lives in a rent controlled apartment like my friend Jimmy does - he pays $200 a month for the two bedroom apartment in Alphabet City, because he's been living there since birth (1970), and it was a horrid slum back in the day. As for ultra expensive life style in NY - get some kids, and then realize how much it costs to bring up a child. Then think of me and mentally apologize - yet another one "told you so". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I played the hypocrite card in this thread. Where I work we obtained Government Funds, most of which we will NOT pay back. I got a bonus and may continue to receive them - do I think I earned it? - Yeah - do I feel guilty? No. Sorry about that one Ice Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ants Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 The thing is, there are individual companies, individuals, and departments who may be deserving of bonuses. What is an issue for most people is when the senior execs in a lot of these companies, who generally haven't run things, ahem, satisfactorily, are getting bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='UltimateIceQueen' post='1670918' date='Feb 2 2009, 14.46']Surely by NYC you mean one of the boroughs. It is impossible to live in Manhattan with this salary, it's not just me, it's economics, common sense and market prices. Unless she lives in a rent controlled apartment like my friend Jimmy does - he pays $200 a month for the two bedroom apartment in Alphabet City, because he's been living there since birth (1970), and it was a horrid slum back in the day. As for ultra expensive life style in NY - get some kids, and then realize how much it costs to bring up a child. Then think of me and mentally apologize - yet another one "told you so".[/quote] Weren't you the person who hired a servant? That doesen't sound like living thriftily to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='ants' post='1671093' date='Feb 2 2009, 12.00']The thing is, there are individual companies, individuals, and departments who may be deserving of bonuses. What is an issue for most people is when the senior execs in a lot of these companies, who generally haven't run things, ahem, satisfactorily, are getting bonuses.[/quote] No, I think it even bothers me when well-performing employees of poorly performing companies are getting bonuses [i]if[/i] they're being paid with taxpayer funds. If they didn't, I don't care who they're giving money too - it's their own business judgment and none of my business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1671134' date='Feb 2 2009, 10.50']Weren't you the person who hired a servant? That doesen't sound like living thriftily to me.[/quote] Leave it to Gen Chat to toss anything in your face, at any given moment in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 And hey, doesn't she sit on the board of Monocle Manufactuers, Inc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 People who have live-in servants shouldn't really lecture others about living thriftily. Also, there's this erroneous assumption that the best-and-brightest would leave the industry if bonuses were cut ........... I would argue that the best-and-brightest aren't necessarily representatives of the financial industry, just the greediest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frog Eater Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Raidne' post='1671294' date='Feb 2 2009, 14.51']No, I think it even bothers me when well-performing employees of poorly performing companies are getting bonuses [i]if[/i] they're being paid with taxpayer funds. If they didn't, I don't care who they're giving money too - it's their own business judgment and none of my business.[/quote] These are my sentiments exactly. NO bonuses should be allowed by any company taking taxpayer funds. If a company truely feels that it cannot function without paying bonuses, then that would have to be something the company would take into account when they are getting in line for a government handout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 IceQueen and I aren't exactly good buddies but I didn't see her lecturing anybody so what do you guys say you stop attacking her for no reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Inigima' post='1671639' date='Feb 2 2009, 17.13']IceQueen and I aren't exactly good buddies but I didn't see her lecturing anybody so what do you guys say you stop attacking her for no reason[/quote] Of course she doesn't "lecture" people; she only demand others to apologize because she "told them so" about a thing or two. [quote]well, what industry are the best and brightest in? IMO, they are in all of them - not confined to one industry.[/quote] That's precisely my point, that is the best and brightest of society isn't necessarily concentrated in industries such as i-banking and retail brokerage. Therefore, the assumption that the best and brightest of society would shun and leave this sector if bonuses are cut are at best laughable. On the contrary, given the recent economic meltdown, I'm not even sure if the people working in these jobs are even mediocre and dimly lit, let alone best and brightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1671678' date='Feb 2 2009, 20.10']2. They've already spent an extraordinary amount of time of training between school and work experience to get to their current jobs. Even looking at the staid and boring field of accounting, where I'm at, you just don't get a M.Acc. degree and a CPA and become a partner in a firm or a CFO instantly. You have to work your way there, often involving a lot of "dues paying", which typically involve a lot of late nights and long hours. There's a lot invested.[/quote] No doubt. I believe the general sentiment is that one, or even two, year(s) of going without a bonus ought not to be such a hardship to the significant majority of the people in the top of the financial sector that there'll be a mass exodus. The argument that witholding bonuses this year will lead to a significant brain drain for the sector comes across as half a pathetic whine and half a childish tantrum. There are plenty of sectors that have suffered several years of cut-backs, e.g. academia. The fact is that the financial sector is almost one of the last sectors to fall in this round of financial slow-down. Couple that with the common perception that a lot of the slow-down was caused by those in this sector satisfying their unbridled avarice in trading securities irresponsibly, I think it's easy to see why there's such a lack of sympathy for the missing bonus for some mid-to-high levels in this sector this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfish Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Mod mode on: Let's keep personal attacks out of it, guys. Whatever was said isn't vital to the topic, so let it be and move on, please and thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Foote Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1671678' date='Feb 2 2009, 21.10']While the best and the brightest are not concentrated in our financial sector by any means, they are present in our financial sector, and "just leaving" isn't an easy option.[/quote] It's not like the architects, engineers or scientists you see working say retail these past 20odd years, these people actually contribute something to society... So is there a lot of them? It's going to be really tough for taxpayers to cough up that amount of welfare for the next 10 years if other countries stop buying treasury bonds ;) Seriously, think about the numbered points you made. You bet the house on that? How can I trust my money to that (well I don't, but it's a pittance so you won't care)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 While I completely understand Terra's view that if a bunch of bankers don't get bonuses in a disastrous year, there won't be much sympathy for them, Chataya's point that these people have invested so much time in their education and developing their careers that leaving the field would be difficult does ring true. A lot of them are wildly overqualified for most positions outside finance. And inside the financial world, who's hiring? :unsure: For some of them, not getting a bonus must be like having a massive salary cut: the point was made in previous economic threads that in some cases, these people have quite low base salaries because a big bonus was built into their contracts. From that perspective, they've as much reason to get upset as a auto worker whose hours and take-home pay have been cut in half - but, rather like GM execs, bankers don't get the sympathy vote. ;) I can certainly see that if you're in a department which performed well when all about you was crashing down, it'd be nice to see a reward for actually doing a good job - but as this whole bailout has been a crazy fix to a crazy mess from start to finish, I don't expect to see any rationality any time soon. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Chats, the reasons you mention are exactly why I don't really believe that the financial sector [i]would[/i] see any brain drain from a cut in bonuses. What else are these people gonna do? It would really be worth it to them to switch careers instead of staying in an industry that is likely to return to lucrativeness in a couple years? And as far as them leaving a company that accepted bailout money for a company that's still performing well, has not accepted government funds, and is paying bonuses - as if that wouldn't happen anyway? If there were any jobs to be had? As far as it hurting the bottom line of well-performing individuals, that does suck, but welcome to the club. Everybody's bonuses are less or non-existent this year. Or how about getting laid off? [i]That[/i] will hurt your bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Angalin' post='1671901' date='Feb 3 2009, 00.35']I can certainly see that if you're in a department which performed well when all about you was crashing down, it'd be nice to see a reward for actually doing a good job...[/quote] How's about still having a job. I think that's a pretty nice and dandy reward, myself. :D Just heard on the news this morning that in Decatur, IL, a couple thousand of workers from the Caterpillar plant will be out of jobs in two months. That's a substantial chunk of their tax base in the city. In Janesville, WI, Ford closed their plant, and a couple thousand workers are out of a job. In this climate, if I work in anything related to finance, I'd count myself lucky to still be employed. A good friend working in the credit industry (mid management) was let go just 2 months ago, right before Thanksgiving. Another friend who worked on loan approvals in a mortgage company was also let go, together with 6 other people in similar positions. That company now only has 1 loan approval officers. Besides, the financial types always tell people to sock away liquid assets equal to 3 months of living expenses for situations just like this. Missing a bonus that they expected sucks. I know. But compared to the rest of the country, if they still have a job, it's not the end of the world. The finance sector tends to do well when the time is good, and it doesn't suffer nearly as badly as the service and manufacture sectors when the time is lean. So, I just can't scrape up enough sympathy for them. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Terra: I agree, jobs are not to be sniffed at, unless you're scooping dog poop. ;) See, for whatever reason, in Manitoba we just haven't taken the economic hits in the same way as in the US, or even in Ontario and Alberta; "no boom, no bust" is pretty dull in the good years but instills a weird sense of security in the down times. But a friend of mine who lives in Minneapolis comes back here and she says it's like two different worlds. What does a city do when its tax base gets cut by, say, a third, given that borrowing is particularly difficult at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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