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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

They look very good! Much better than the options/solutions we had thusfar! :D This will allow us to display up to four marriages within one family tree template at the same time, right?

I am not very familiar with CSS codes necessary to increase the possibilities in template, but perhaps you know this. Do you think it is possible to add a note box within a family tree template (like, for example, this family tree on wikipedia (ignoring that they use it to display references, :) ))? We don't use notes in family trees often, but the few times that we do, the Notes template now needs to be added to the page to display everything properly, and by having the option of having a note box within the family tree templates (which lists only the notes from within the family tree) would circumvent that.

Yep, up to four. :) If you like, it might be possible to even do six (three lines coming out of each side), though that might look a little crowded, and the name box would probably end up taller than usual.

Regarding notes, sure that's possible, with no CSS or anything, just regular wiki coding. It's the same as when we add the ref tag in a family tree, you can add the {{references}} section at the bottom while still in the included part of the template. But instead of adding ==Notes== to set it off, you'd just do '''Notes:''' or something with a table format like in that wikipedia tree you linked. And to make sure it stays separate from the other references or notes on the page that the tree might be transcluded into, you'd do <ref group="T">note</ref> and {{references|group="T"}} or something like that. You can see an example of how it could look at the top of my sandbox.

Though I'm not sure what would happen if two separate family trees with notes were included on the same page (like for ancestors and descendants), it might duplicate the notes from each tree? But I think they're rare enough that that wouldn't happen.

But if you do want to do fun things with CSS and family trees, it would be really easy to put a border around a family tree (and its notes), like in that wikipedia example, or set it off with a different color background, add that v*t*e and hide, anything you like...

Edited by Mindset

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23 minutes ago, Ran said:

@Mindset

Done and done.

Thanks so much! I noticed a tiny error though -- there's a lost semicolon after that

div { text-align: left !important; };

that was in the mobile.css before, which needs to be removed. Also, because of that !important (I'm not sure why it's there but I assume it's important ;)) there needs to be a tiny change to one line:

div.templatequotetext { margin:0 3em 0 2.5em; text-align:justify !important; font-style:italic; }

Again, thank you.

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55 minutes ago, Mindset said:

Well, the real fix is to remove the line breaks and just use <br> tags alone (so that the wikitext looks like text<br>text), which we should be doing as we adjust the sources for all the quotes anyway. But since that will take a while to find them all, I've set a div to contain the text to handle those exceptions. It'll need a small CSS change, though.

 

So instead of 

Quote

{{Quote|'''Melisandre''': Are you a good man, Davos Seaworth?<br>
'''Davos''': I am a man. I am kind to [[Marya Seaworth|my wife]], but I have known other women. I have tried to be a father to my sons, to help make them a place in this world. Aye, I've broken laws, but I never felt evil until tonight. I would say my parts are mixed, m'lady. Good and bad.<br>
'''Melisandre''': A grey man. Neither white nor black, but partaking of both.{{ref|aCoK|42}}}} – [[Melisandre]] and Davos

it would be better to this?

Quote

{{Quote|'''Melisandre''': Are you a good man, Davos Seaworth?<br>'''Davos''': I am a man. I am kind to [[Marya Seaworth|my wife]], but I have known other women. I have tried to be a father to my sons, to help make them a place in this world. Aye, I've broken laws, but I never felt evil until tonight. I would say my parts are mixed, m'lady. Good and bad.<br>'''Melisandre''': A grey man. Neither white nor black, but partaking of both.{{ref|aCoK|42}}}} – [[Melisandre]] and Davos

 

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@Nittanian, yep, or even better, like this

Quote

{{Quote|'''Melisandre''': Are you a good man, Davos Seaworth?<br>'''Davos''': I am a man. I am kind to [[Marya Seaworth|my wife]], but I have known other women. I have tried to be a father to my sons, to help make them a place in this world. Aye, I've broken laws, but I never felt evil until tonight. I would say my parts are mixed, m'lady. Good and bad.<br>'''Melisandre''': A grey man. Neither white nor black, but partaking of both.{{ref|aCoK|42}}|[[Melisandre]] and Davos}}

to get the benefits of the quote citation part of the template. But the div fix is handling exception errors like that for conversations, so it won't look messy anymore, so no big rush.

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Arya page:

Quote

 

Arya has spend her entire life at Winterfell, though she did accompany her father on two occasions to White Harbor.

 

The ref should be {{Ref|affc|22}}

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On 5/16/2018 at 10:44 PM, Mindset said:

Yep, up to four. :) If you like, it might be possible to even do six (three lines coming out of each side), though that might look a little crowded, and the name box would probably end up taller than usual.

O, that might be an excellent idea! It would be useful for Maegor, for example, or Rohanne Webber. 

Regarding running short of letters to use as codes, there should be plenty of letters left to add those options, right? Can't we use both lower case and capital letters?

 

On 5/16/2018 at 10:44 PM, Mindset said:

Regarding notes, sure that's possible, with no CSS or anything, just regular wiki coding. It's the same as when we add the ref tag in a family tree, you can add the {{references}} section at the bottom while still in the included part of the template. But instead of adding ==Notes== to set it off, you'd just do '''Notes:''' or something with a table format like in that wikipedia tree you linked. And to make sure it stays separate from the other references or notes on the page that the tree might be transcluded into, you'd do <ref group="T">note</ref> and {{references|group="T"}} or something like that. You can see an example of how it could look at the top of my sandbox.

Though I'm not sure what would happen if two separate family trees with notes were included on the same page (like for ancestors and descendants), it might duplicate the notes from each tree? But I think they're rare enough that that wouldn't happen.

But if you do want to do fun things with CSS and family trees, it would be really easy to put a border around a family tree (and its notes), like in that wikipedia example, or set it off with a different color background, add that v*t*e and hide, anything you like...

I'll have to try it then! Thanks for the explanation! :)

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Posted (edited)

I think I stumbled onto something which I wrote as an update to the "Currency" page:  I was re-reading The Rogue Prince and realized it actually did give our first and only example of a numerical money value from the Dance of the Dragons era (or thereabouts).  This wasn't in the list before.

In the year 120 AC, of the Red Spring, when Laenor Velaryon was killed, his father Corlys Velaryon offered a reward of 10,000 gold dragons for information leading to the capture of his murderer.  

….which is curiously small, given that he was arguably the richest living man in Westeros, and Laenor was his only (legitimate...) son and designated heir.  Compare to the tournament prizes in 298 AC - 10,000 for the winning archer (albeit an extravagant kingdom-wide royal-level contest), 40,000 to the winner of the joust.  

…..but this is the opposite of the pattern seen in Dunk & Egg, when money values were HIGHER in spring years.

It's not my idea, I read it in a medieval economics paper about Westeros by Mondschein (which was great) regarding Dunk & Egg:

compare to the medieval warming and cooling periods (1000 to 1200, then 1300 to 1600's).  Every winter/summer cycle in Westeros would follow that pattern in miniature.  Basically, every "summer" is an economic "boom" period, every winter an economic "bust" period.  

Thus the first book of ASOIAF under Robert Baratheon, at the end of summer, is at the tail end of an economic growth boom, while stories set in SPRING would be after an economic bust just ended.  

Due to scarce goods & products, the numerical value of prices increases in winter...but by spring, so many workers have died that labor is scarce, so wages increase.   This makes everything balance out - 3 plus gold dragons is considered a fair price for a horse in the Dunk & Egg era, but 1 gold dragon is considered a fair price by Jaime and Brienne.  


….of course, Dunk & Egg is coming off of the First Blackfyre Rebellion not too long before, while The Rogue Prince is coasting along 70 years of economic prosperity and peace in the Targaryen golden age.  Which one affects price more? Prolonged peace, or seasonal-influenced economic growth cycles?

 

...my only tentative theory is that 70 years of Targaryen peace far outweighed seasonal influences on the economy, and thus money values would be LOWER in the lead-up to the Dance compared to the main novels (prices go up in times of scarcity, they go down in times of plenty).  All this is tentative.  (shrug)  We'll have Fire & Blood soon enough...

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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Do we know if Ronard the Bastard, one of the Storm Kings, ruled as Ronard Storm or Ronard Durrandon?

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@Mindset,

 

I recently used the new coding for the quote template on the known world page, but the dash in front of the quote description and the description itself follow each other immediately. Am I supposed to manually add a space in front of the description?

So for example, I have now written

{{Quote|Wiser men suggest that somewhere beyond the waters we know, east becomes west, and the Shivering Sea must surely join the Sunset Sea, if indeed the world is round.{{ref|TWOIAF| Beyond the Free Cities: East of Ib}}|Maester Yandel}}

Which results in 

—Maester Yandel

below the quote. But am I instead supposed to write

{{Quote|Wiser men suggest that somewhere beyond the waters we know, east becomes west, and the Shivering Sea must surely join the Sunset Sea, if indeed the world is round.{{ref|TWOIAF| Beyond the Free Cities: East of Ib}}| Maester Yandel}}

? So the result becomes — Maester Yandel?

 

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Might it be good to trim down the Battles category by subcategorizing by location? (Category:Battles in the north, Category:Battles in the westerlands, etc.)

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MASSIVE Problem

Big enough that @Ran should ask GRRM about it directly (at some point, eventually in a list of errata)

I was working on that article I created on "Measurement" (subsection of Science & Technology), spinoff of brief notes from the old Concordance.... https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Measurement

Long story short, of the 7 base units of measurement, only 4 could possibly apply to a pre-modern civilization, and pre-moderns actually didn't have temperature scales either, narrowing it down to three:  Length, Weight, and Time.  Plus the derived units, i.e. from Length we get Area and Volume.  Time overlaps with cultural stuff with calendar systems.

I checked using electronic search, and Westeros pretty much uses the current Imperial system measurements used in the United States, familiar to GRRM's readers:  miles, feet, inches, acres of land, gallons of wine, hours, seconds, etc.  Calendar system is a bit unorganized (how long is each month?) but that's a whole other issue...

Only rarely does he use a few unfamiliar, pre-modern terms like "league" ( 3 miles) and of course "stone" weight (prominently appears at beginning of first novel:  if one stone in real life equals 14 pounds, and King Robert gained 9 stone, then he gained around 112 pounds...)

The problem happened when I started researching comparisons to other major Fantasy series, particularly Robert Jordayne's The Wheel of Time :


http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Measurement
http://www.personal.ars-informatica.ca/paul/wot/wot.php?page=measures

While the Westlands in The Wheel of Time use commonly encountered real-life names, they do not correspond to real-life units.

Moreover, this was a subtle but pervasive background principle throughout the novel series...which he only explicitly stated in later novels.

Basically, "1 pound" is the same as a real life pound, "1 foot" is apparently the same as 1 foot in real life (based on character heights)…..BUT....they use a DECIMALIZED system.  Thus "1 pound" in WOT contains 10 ounces, not 16 ounces....so a WOT "ounce" is bigger than a real-life ounce.  Particularly, "1 foot" is divided into TEN "inches", not 12 as in real life, so each "WOT inch" is larger than in real life....which frequently comes up when discussing character heights.  This gets compounded in larger distances:  one WOT "mile" is actually 1.1 real-life miles.  (They also define "1 league" as 4 miles, not 3 miles as in ASOIAF).  

Moreover, "one week" in Wheel of Time CONTAINS 10 DAYS, not 7 days.  It's a pervasive background principle, but they rarely draw attention to it to spell it out to readers, up until you get confusing statements like "there are 3 more 2 day festivals this week".  

Thus, up until now, we all assumed that measurements given in ASOIAF basically correspond to their real-life measures.  Yet by explicit comparison, The Wheel of Time used real-life names for FICTIONAL systems (a "6 inch long blade" in Wheel of Time isn't actually 6 real life inches long).  

Martin has stated that "one year" for Westeros corresponds to one real life year, thus "one week" has 7 days, each day seemingly has 24 hours, etc.  

But we need to confirm, beyond time units:  is "one foot", "one acre", or "one gallon" defined like in current modern day usage?

He's stated "1 league is 3 miles" - is one mile like a modern mile?

The biggest one I have issue with is...twenty years old at this point, dating from the first novel:  we ASSUMED that "a stone" is equal to 14 pounds, because that's how much a real life "Stone" weight unit is.  Wheel of Time also uses a "stone" weight in its decimalized system....and thus defines a WOT "Stone" weight as 10 pounds.  

GRRM may also be intentionally using archaic units, to reflect medieval customary usage which was variable.

I'm freaking out at this, I never knew Wheel of Time did that.  

So can Elio & Linda confirm at some point, "by explicit comparison to how measurement systems are actually different in Wheel of Time, despite using the same names, do all measurement units mentioned in ASOIAF actually correspond to real life ones?  Particularly, the Stone weight?"

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George likes to keep it simple. He doesn't fuck around with making up definitions for measurements. That way lies madness.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 12:30 PM, Ran said:

George likes to keep it simple. He doesn't fuck around with making up definitions for measurements. That way lies madness.

Lord Jordayne was many things, ser -  loyal, witty, mayhaps even something of a sentimentalist - but mad?

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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11 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Lord Jordayne was many things, ser -  loyal, witty, mayhaps even something of a sentimentalist - but mad?

From George's perspective, yes.

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On 5/31/2018 at 1:34 PM, Nittanian said:

Might it be good to trim down the Battles category by subcategorizing by location? (Category:Battles in the north, Category:Battles in the westerlands, etc.)

The ships category can also be trimmed down into subcategories (galleys, dromonds, etc.). 

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Many of the articles about battles list Houses which possibly participate in a specific battle, rather than only listing Houses with confirmed involvement. For instance, the "fall of Harrenhal" article includes Burleys, Condons, Dustins, Lockes, Norreys, and Stouts.

Arya observes the night-time arrival of Vargo Hoat's "prisoners" in ACOK Arya IX:

Quote

By his bearing and the proud way he held his head, he must have been a lord. She could see mail glinting beneath his torn red surcoat. At first Arya took him for a Lannister, but when he passed near a torch she saw his device was a silver fist, not a lion. His wrists were bound tightly, and a rope around one ankle tied him to the man behind him, and him to the man behind him, so the whole column had to shuffle along in a lurching lockstep. Many of the captives were wounded. If any halted, one of the riders would trot up and give him a lick of the whip to get him moving again. She tried to judge how many prisoners there were, but lost count before she got to fifty. There were twice that many at least. Their clothing was stained with mud and blood, and in the torchlight it was hard to make out all their badges and sigils, but some of those Arya glimpsed she recognized. Twin towers. Sunburst. Bloody man. Battle-axe. The battle-axe is for Cerwyn, and the white sun on black is Karstark. They're northmen. My father's men, and Robb's. She didn't like to think what that might mean.

We thus have confirmation of Glovers, Freys, Karstarks, Boltons, and Cerwyns. Roose arrives at dusk the day after Arya's weasel soup, so most of his soldiers are not involved in the fall of Harrenhal. Even though it might make sense for a House to be involved in a conflict, I think it would be better if battle articles only list canon involvement.

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2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Even though it might make sense for a House to be involved in a conflict, I think it would be better if battle articles only list canon involvement.

I agree.

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On 6/6/2018 at 1:21 PM, Nittanian said:

The ships category can also be trimmed down into subcategories (galleys, dromonds, etc.). 

"Members of the Night's Watch" can also be trimmed down if we know the member's order.

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