Is this rape?

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Deluge' post='1735023' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.42']That's part of the problem, really. We construct rape as something involving penetration, and see it as much worse than other forms of sexual assault. But who is to say if it really is for the victim. I don't know, I know a few people who have been sexually assaulted, but no one who has been raped, so I'm not in much of a position to judge if one is necessarily worse than the other. But my sympathies to all those here who have been raped/sexually assaulted.[/quote]

IMO, they [i]can[/i] be equally bad, or one, generally the penetration kind, can be worse. It really depends on other factors. Like if you got the crap beat out of you in the process or not. That makes a difference.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1735024' date='Mar 26 2009, 18.42']We'll never really know, barring (as I read earlier) a Vulcan mind-meld.[/quote]
That guy really knew what he was talking about.

[Meili]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1735021' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.42']I used to be the legal clerk for my unit, and I loved just reading the UCMJ (and maybe I watch too much SVU). You Sgt was a complete ass, btw, and out of line.[/quote]

A complete ass? Lany, you don't know the half. Actually, you were prior so you might know the type. (and Chief, we were branch that works :thumbsup: ). BUT the UCMJ also says anal sex between a man and his wife is illegal too so that book is a little outdated methinks.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Meili' post='1735030' date='Mar 26 2009, 18.47']UCMJ also says anal sex between a man and his wife is illegal too so that book is a little outdated methinks.[/quote]
Last time I read it it said BJ's are sodomy.

[Meili]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1735024' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.42']I know girls who's personalities do complete 180's when they're drinking. They become the pursuers and go home with guys they normally would not go home with. I've also seen guys who are complete douchebags who definitely try to choose a really drunk girl because they think they have a shot.[/quote]

And Vice Versa I might add. In my experience, much more the other way around (except the guys being douchebags, which of course they almost always are).

[alguien]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1735026' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.45']Not so much struggling involved if she were too drunk to [i]move[/i], for instance.[/quote]

Yeah, I thought that might be the case. I don't know the ins and outs of forensic science or medical procedures to determine sexual assault. Thought there might be a way to base it off evidence rather than one person's word against another's.

[Guest thebadlady]

Den, we mostly agree on theories, but specifics is where we tend to disagree. I am happy we agree this time.

I was going to send a PM to the people I offended, but thats Pussy Messenging. I truly am sorry to those I have offended. This is obviously a hot button topic for me and the thread title had me pissed before I even started reading. No fucking excuses tho- I was a fucking jerk and I do apologize.

For those focusing on degree of penetration, etc you are missing the point. Rape is a power trip, its not degree of penetration. The degree of penetration is the [b]legal [/b]issue, but to the person who has been raped the degree doesn't matter as much as the very happening of it, the emotional imact of it. If that makes sense. I am too worked up to type english.

Fuck it for now, I am gonna go kill some shit til I feel better.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='turinturambar' post='1735011' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.38']I'm sorry, yes that was over the line. However, she tried to accuse me of being a rapist. That is way over the line and I got emotional over it. I'm sorry.

However, why does she get a pass? Why is it ok for her to cross the line? Is it ok for her to call me a rapist? But it's not ok for me to react to it?


please name one thing I've said that's insensitive to anyone who's been sexually assaulted? Where have I defended rape? Where have i said rape is justified? Rape is a horrible crime and imo one of the worst things a person can do. I have never, nor would I ever defend rape.[/quote]

Others called Ro on it, so she won't get a free pass. The rapist comment was over the line, but I do know where it was coming from.

[quote name='turinturambar' post='1734886' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.04']If this is rape, then I've been raped numerous times.

IMO this is BS. How exactly is one suppose to know if one is too drunk to have sex? I've certainly regretted things before, but the decisions I make when drunk are still my decisions, even if they are bad ones.

Anyways, a person does not rape somebody and then sleep naked next to them. It's quite obvious that he thought she consented, and the mere thought that he may get convicted of something because some woman regrets what happened....well that's just a frightening precedent to start(although it sounds as if such a precedent has already been set).

Rape is a terrible crime, WHEN IT'S RAPE, this situation is just a messy one and it's sad to think that this guy could spend time in prison because some woman can't remember what she did the night before.[/quote]



[quote name='turinturambar' post='1734911' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.35']Something done to her? It takes two to have sex ya know. If they both have sex without any clear lack of consent then they are both doing something to each other. She raped him just as much as he raped her.

Also, it seems a bit hypocritical of you to call people out for assuming it's her fault when you seem to be doing the same thing in assuming him to be guilty.[/quote]


The first couple of comments you posted were taking hte side of the guy, and I READ THEM as being insensitive. WHile the guy BELIEVED she consented, the woman believed she didn't and not remembering. My sympathies lie with the woman, so I read the posts that way.

Yours were more to the guys sympathies (and you did back them up) even though this is not a major thing for me now, I do still see things from my perspective. Sorry if I offended.

[buy one get one free]

This case aside, it just amazes me that British law can not hold someone accountable for their own actions just because they are very drunk (short of being passed out or even practically immobile), or am I getting the wrong impression over the new law?

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1735031' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.48']Last time I read it it said BJ's are sodomy.[/quote]

yep...it still said that last time I read it too ;)

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1735006' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.35']People spend [i]their entire lives[/i] in jail for murders they did not commit. Some get the death penalty.

This is not particular to rape cases, or anything special about rape. This is the justice system. When you think of a better way to conduct the justice system, let me know.

ETA: Also, I have a hard time believing that your friend didn't do anything wrong if he accepted the plea and had evidence of that nature. Over a blow job. That is impossible. I call bullshit, or you're leaving a lot of things out.[/quote]

Not all people who accept plea bargains are guilty of something. Sometimes they don't have the money to fight something. Other times they feel the system is against them even if they are innocent because in a case of "he said she said" in some areas of the country the court is still biased towards gender and race. Other times they simply want to have something be done and over with.

I exaggerated a bit when I said he spent "months" in jail, but he did spend some time in jail. He's from Tennessee and he was a senior in high school. In this particular incident he was 17 about to turn 18. They wanted to wait until his 18th birthday to charge him as an adult(also racially motivated as well being he was African American and she is white). They offered him a plea down to a simple assault charge, likely because they knew that a conviction would be very difficult. He had two choices, defend himself(with money he didn't have) and remain in jail and await trial all the while taking the chance that he may be convicted anyways. In doing this he was going to miss too much school and would have to repeat his senior year, it would also jeopardize his scholarship. Or he could accept the plea, go through a diversion with a little bit of community service. Meanwhile he was able to finish school and keep his scholarship.

BTW, there were two people involved(evidently she gave him and another guy oral at the party) and the other guy was not charged with anything.

[alguien]

[quote name='Meili' post='1735032' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.49']And Vice Versa I might add. In my experience, much more the other way around (except the guys being douchebags, which of course they almost always are).[/quote]

Sure, things like that go both ways. I think generally guys are more often the pursuers in bar situations, but by no means is it rare to see women "on the prowl" as well.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1735044' date='Mar 26 2009, 18.55']Sure, things like that go both ways. I think generally guys are more often the pursuers in bar situations, but by no means is it rare to see women "on the prowl" as well.[/quote]
I got way too drunk one night, and woke up in a cougar's den the next morning, so I know it's true.

My room-mate at the time drank himself into yet another of a long list of black-outs that night and woke up only to discover that he'd been violated by another man.

I faired better than he that weekend, but neither of us had anyone but ourselves to blaim for any of it.

[turinturambar]

[quote]Turinturambar,



No. Believe me, a lot of people see what *you* are doing here, and you may well find yourself the object of your own descriptions.

In the end, I agree with the verdict. He's innocent because he can't be proven guilty. That has nothing to do with the general discussion of rape as a crime and how we should deal with it in our society.[/quote]
I went over the line. Her attempting to call me a rapist is a very emotional thing and I let it get the best of me and for that I'm sorry.

However, i don't see how you can say I'm the "object of my own descriptions". Nowhere have I tried to say rape is ok, nor have I defended rape.

[jack-be-lucky]

[quote name='Teri' post='1735002' date='Mar 26 2009, 19.33']Since we'll never know the specifics of what happened behind closed doors in this specific incident, how about moving on from whether or not a rape occurred there, to the general question as to how someone in an intimate situation with someone who is drunk should determine whether or not he or she is so impaired as to be unable to give consent?

One thing that doesn't seem workable to me is the notion of "just ask", partly because on the one hand someone may be too drunk to know what is being asked (it's pretty common for inebriated people to say 'yes' to everything without hardly listening - you could ask them if they were leprechauns and they'd say 'yes'), and partly because it would disrupt the mood if people felt obliged to ask "do you want to?" all the time. The vast majority of the time I have sex, neither of us ask in words, we just start fondling each other and activities escalate.

So what signals should count as consent, and to what degree should the inebriation of one's prospective partner influence how their behavior is interpreted?[/quote]

This is a question that I also have. It seems some of the women here are advocating that no sex occurs until the woman verbally says yes. Is this what women really want? I've been married twenty-three years and two things I've never heard my wife say is 1. I was wrong, I'm sorry or 2 I want to have sex. She is never going to say either of those statements, and woe to the husband who tries to force her to say them.

I understand. Deep down inside is still that little Catholic schoolgirl hearing Sister Mary Sheila telling her that Sex is Bad!
So no , she's never going to say she wants to have sex. She prefers to be seduced, and I'm more than happy to oblige.
And frankly, its my experience the majority of women I've slept with were the same. They're not going to be happy if they have to verbally admit they want to have sex.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='jack-be-lucky' post='1735051' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.00']This is a question that I also have. It seems some of the women here are advocating that no sex occurs until the woman verbally says yes. Is this what women really want? I've been married twenty-three years and two things I've never heard my wife say is 1. I was wrong, I'm sorry or 2 I want to have sex. She is never going to say either of those statements, and woe to the husband who tries to force her to say them.

I understand. Deep down inside is still that little Catholic schoolgirl hearing Sister Mary Sheila telling her that Sex is Bad!
So no , she's never going to say she wants to have sex. She prefers to be seduced, and I'm more than happy to oblige.
And frankly, its my experience the majority of women I've slept with were the same. They're not going to be happy if they have to verbally admit they want to have sex.[/quote]

I have no problems voicing when I want to have sex. I think few women now a days do. As I said to Teri, the situation with a "lover" is different.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1735033' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.50']Yeah, I thought that might be the case. I don't know the ins and outs of forensic science or medical procedures to determine sexual assault. Thought there might be a way to base it off evidence rather than one person's word against another's.[/quote]

Yeah, they look for abrasions and that kind of thing, but it's not conclusive. As we discussed in the female desire thread, women who are raped often, how shall I say...lubricate?...still, so they wouldn't be there, and often they [i]are[/i] there in cases of consensual sex.

Here though, it looks like it was the guy's own statement to the police that brought the charge, no?

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735036' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.52']For those focusing on degree of penetration, etc you are missing the point. Rape is a power trip, its not degree of penetration. The degree of penetration is the [b]legal [/b]issue, but to the person who has been raped the degree doesn't matter as much as the very happening of it, the emotional imact of it. If that makes sense.[/quote]

For my part, at least, I agree with you, but I think it's unfortunate when the law does not reflect reality that way. That's all my point was.

[quote name='turinturambar' post='1735043' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.55']Not all people who accept plea bargains are guilty of something. Sometimes they don't have the money to fight something. Other times they feel the system is against them even if they are innocent because in a case of "he said she said" in some areas of the country the court is still biased towards gender and race. Other times they simply want to have something be done and over with.[/quote]

What state do you live in that people accused of sexual assault don't get court-appointed attorneys? I think he must have been charged with a misdemeanor from what you're saying and that you're exaggerating the hell out of this story.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1735039' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.53']Others called Ro on it, so she won't get a free pass. The rapist comment was over the line, but I do know where it was coming from.








The first couple of comments you posted were taking hte side of the guy, and I READ THEM as being insensitive. WHile the guy BELIEVED she consented, the woman believed she didn't and not remembering. My sympathies lie with the woman, so I read the posts that way.

Yours were more to the guys sympathies (and you did back them up) even though this is not a major thing for me now, I do still see things from my perspective. Sorry if I offended.[/quote]

Hey, that was pure class of you. It takes a lot for a person to see things from both sides of the equation. I'm also sorry if I came off sounding insensitive. I wasn't defending rape in any way, I just took the side that went more with my experiences and this just seemed like drunk people doing the nasty to me. Of course we'll never truly know.

[Meili]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1735046' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.59']I faired better than he that weekend, but neither of us had anyone but ourselves to blaim for any of it.[/quote]
I don't even want to know who lost the other weekends :leaving:

But I agree. I have awoken next to some she-bears I wouldn't even give a penny to if she worked at a strip bar.....yet there I was in her hibernation cave.... Blackouts suck my friend. It's why I quit drinking with a few exceptions here and there.

[Teri]

[quote name='jack-be-lucky' post='1735051' date='Mar 26 2009, 18.00']So no , she's never going to say she wants to have sex. She prefers to be seduced, and I'm more than happy to oblige.
And frankly, its my experience the majority of women I've slept with were the same. They're not going to be happy if they have to verbally admit they want to have sex.[/quote]

Well, I'm more likely to be the seducer than the seducee, and I'm quite happy to say "fuck me" when I want it. But I would be a little bit put off if a guy were to ask "do you want me to continue?" It sounds unconfident, and thus unsexy.

I think it's pretty typical in consensual sex for both parties to judge the other's interest by non-verbal signals such as where they are putting their hands or mouths or legs and the rate of their breathing. Part of what's arousing is the feeling that you are sharing a mental space, almost reading each other's minds, and it makes me uneasy to think that kind of physical communication would be legally judged as non-consent.