Is this rape?

[turinturambar]

[quote name='jack-be-lucky' post='1735051' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.00']This is a question that I also have. It seems some of the women here are advocating that no sex occurs until the woman verbally says yes. Is this what women really want? I've been married twenty-three years and two things I've never heard my wife say is 1. I was wrong, I'm sorry or 2 I want to have sex. She is never going to say either of those statements, and woe to the husband who tries to force her to say them.

I understand. Deep down inside is still that little Catholic schoolgirl hearing Sister Mary Sheila telling her that Sex is Bad!
So no , she's never going to say she wants to have sex. She prefers to be seduced, and I'm more than happy to oblige.
And frankly, its my experience the majority of women I've slept with were the same. They're not going to be happy if they have to verbally admit they want to have sex.[/quote]

I asked a couple of times, then i quit asking. usually it's just kissing leads to foreplay which leads to sex. If she does not want sex she will let me know. In the past i've been labeled with the "nice guy" rep. I would ask a girl if I could kiss her, open doors for her, I always waited too long to make the first move or to carry things beyond the first move, etc etc etc. Too often I was called to sensitive. Once time when I went home with a girl, in the heat of the moment I asked and she told me to quit being a fucking pussy.... Then again I always usually ended up with aggressive women because I rarely made the first move being myself a fairly shy person. I usually let the girls pick me up so I guess it was never really a problem. So I guess i agree with you that asking consent is a difficult situation because some women may want you to ask for consent, but others will give you a WTF look like "Are you serious"?

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='turinturambar' post='1735059' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.05']Hey, that was pure class of you. It takes a lot for a person to see things from both sides of the equation. I'm also sorry if I came off sounding insensitive. I wasn't defending rape in any way, I just took the side that went more with my experiences and this just seemed like drunk people doing the nasty to me. Of course we'll never truly know.[/quote]

I'd be willing to bet I've had more drunk sex than just about anyone on this board. (I had issues :rolleyes: ) but I have also been raped drunk (just that once) and her not remembering was really what did it in my opinion. So my experience saw something else.

Life can be pretty fucked up sometimes. I hope they both come out of it ok though.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1735056' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.03']Yeah, they look for abrasions and that kind of thing, but it's not conclusive. As we discussed in the female desire thread, women who are raped often, how shall I say...lubricate?...still, so they wouldn't be there, and often they [i]are[/i] there in cases of consensual sex.

Here though, it looks like it was the guy's own statement to the police that brought the charge, no?



For my part, at least, I agree with you, but I think it's unfortunate when the law does not reflect reality that way. That's all my point was.



What state do you live in that people accused of sexual assault don't get court-appointed attorneys? I think he must have been charged with a misdemeanor from what you're saying and that you're exaggerating the hell out of this story.[/quote]
I live in Kansas, but he lived in Tennessee when this happened. And he can get a court-appointed attorney, but seriously he wouldn't want to have his life in the hands of a court appointed attorney, especially considering the girl had a lot of money with parents who would have emptied their bank accounts to save her reputation. BTW, as I said, he more than likely wouldn't have been convicted. As i said, he had too much riding on the table, he couldn't afford to wait on a trial. He was given a plea where he could go on diversion, but continue with his life with the knowledge that any charges would eventually be dropped. Personally, If I were in his situation I would have taken the plea as well.

[Swordfish]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1734952' date='Mar 26 2009, 16.57']But he admitted HE was consenting.[/quote]


What difference does that make?

According to the logic, he was just as incapable of giving consent as she was since he was also drunk, so whether he think he did or didn't should be irrelevant, since he was by the nature of the very accusation, incapable of doing so.

That is, in fact, her entire point, and the very basis of the case.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1735066' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.16']I'd be willing to bet I've had more drunk sex than just about anyone on this board. (I had issues :rolleyes: ) but I have also been raped drunk (just that once) and her not remembering was really what did it in my opinion. So my experience saw something else.

Life can be pretty fucked up sometimes. I hope they both come out of it ok though.[/quote]


Kudos. Same here.

[Guest thebadlady]

Stegho,
I had a powerfailure and didn't get to apologize to you specifically. I do. I said something stupid and extremely selfish while wallowing in my own misery and filth. Please don't hate me for being fucking stupid.

Ro


Turin,
My generalized apology also applies to you. I did go over the line and it was a dick move. I am sorry, and I hope your wife is recovering as best as she can.

LanyC,
Thank you for having the happy clam to say what I am trying to, but failing due to many failings.


Now, about that troublesome maths and hard truths.

We can talk on and on and quote stats for how many women have been raped with a lazzie-faire sort of attitude but no one ever wants to talk about the rapists. Pure math and statistics say we have several rapists posting on the board.

The internet in general, and boards like this specifically give people a false sense of who someone is or what they would or wouldn't do. How many times have we been totally wrong about something as basic as another person's gender? Or sexual preference (oh, my shame!!! Its ok, I was let down gently. Twice.)? Do you really think that because someone can type (or fuck, copy out of a psych text book) legibly makes them ok and safe?

Please. Think about it. This is your own personal safety at area meetups, Cons, and any sort of internet gathering (and I am so not saying that every man on the internet is a sexual predator). Rape needs to stop, but in the meantime, do NOT get lulled into a false sense of security about someone because they don't seem like 'the type'.

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='buy one get one free' post='1735040' date='Mar 27 2009, 01.54']This case aside, it just amazes me that British law can not hold someone accountable for their own actions just because they are very drunk (short of being passed out or even practically immobile), or am I getting the wrong impression over the new law?[/quote]
I think you're getting it wrong. I think the law means people [b]are [/b]still accountable for their actions when they are very very drunk, but [b]are not [/b]accountable for[i] anyone else's [/i]actions towards them when they are very very drunk (excepting situations where there is legal responsibility e.g. parent who should have been watching a toddler). Specifically, people are not accountable for someone else deciding to have sex with them while they are very very drunk.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735078' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.26']Turin,
My generalized apology also applies to you. I did go over the line and it was a dick move. I am sorry, and I hope your wife is recovering as best as she can.[/quote]

No problem. I accept your apology. I apologize as well. I crossed the line. We both let our emotions get the best of us.

BTW, about my wife. I've tried and tried to get her to seek help many times. I've asked her to pursue therapy, but she just can't. She says I'm the only one she feels comfortable with enough to share her experiences. She can't open up like that to a stranger. It did effect our relationship at one time, sometimes even during sex she'll have a flashback, or sometimes even a blackout(though that hasn't happened for 2 years, hopefully they're gone for good). The only thing I can do is kiss her on the forehead and hold her while she cries on my shoulder. So i do hold a lot of sympathy for anybody who's gone through that. Yet at the same time i also hold a sympathy for somebody who's been falsely accused so rape as I've seen two people who've been effected by that(the first one I know is true because I was there, the 2nd I can only go by what he's shared with me and by judging his charachter, which of course is never a certain thing). Rape is a very very difficult situation for me to assess so I guess I should have simply stayed out of the thread....but hey I had to go and get myself involved. :)

[Faelar006]

I've noticed that a common statistic keeps popping up, namely that regarding the extremely low number of rape convictions when compared to other violent felony crimes. I did some thinking about this and, although I am sure that sexist attitudes certainly contribute to this statistic, I also felt that the very nature of rape leads to the low conviction rates.

Rape appears to be a singular case where not only must the jury decide if the defendant is guilty, but also in most cases, whether a crime even occurred, mainly because the vast majority of rape is acquaintance rape. Forensic evidence, barring something like drugs being found in someone's system, is rarely an indicator of whether a crime occurred, because forensic evidence from a rape victim is rarely different than forensic "evidence" gathered from someone who has had consensual sex. Even abrasions and tearing can occur during energetic sex. Rape is also different in that in the vast majority of cases, the accused agrees with the accuser for the most part on the particulars of the event, but disagrees with the interpretation.

Because of the singular nature of rape, the burden of proof required in such cases makes it difficult to obtain a conviction. Thinking about this, I wondered if it would perhaps be better to classify rape as a civil offense (maybe one of the legal people here can help me out on this, as I have no idea if this is even possible) in order to lower the burden of proof associated with it. However, this would also lower the penalties levied against the offender and I'm not sure how the accusers would feel about that. Opinions?

Faelar

Btw, does anyone have statistics on the number of cases where the accused accepts a plea deal for a lesser offense because the prosecution might think they will not be able to get a guilty verdict based on the evidence?

[alguien]

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735078' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.26']We can talk on and on and quote stats for how many women have been raped with a lazzie-faire sort of attitude but no one ever wants to talk about the rapists. Pure math and statistics say we have several rapists posting on the board.[/quote]

Slight nitpick, and to head off any cries of "How dare you call us rapists!", I would argue that the board population differs significantly from a general population sample, so the statistics in quoted sociological surveys probably don't apply. That said, very sorry to read about what happened to you. Its an ordeal I can't even begin to imagine.

[Guest thebadlady]

It is my hair trigger button. Ihaven't really posted about this, but sheeet, no one is reading past page 5 anyway. :P

I haven't been able to work for the last 16 months because I had a bad flashback and got really agrophobic. I can't have sex. I can't stand being alone with a guy unless I have known him for a really really long time and I trust him (so like...3 guys outside of family). My shrink told me to give up on ever going back to work.

Basically, I am going to be fucking crazy as shit until I finally die. I am not thrilled about my life right now and I didn't take my meds so I am all the way me, and as you've seen, I am not all that fun or nice.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Meili' post='1734999' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.31']Nice call judge.

And as to the women who have been raped and are obviously and justafiably furious at the thought of a rape going unpunished, believe it or not, I was raped when I was 20. AND I was pretty much sober.

I just got back from a Kid Rock EdgeFest type thing, was tired and went to bed before my roomates got home. I woke up to a girl who worked for me sucking me off. I was pissed, grabbed her by the hair dragged her out of my room and threw her clothes out. SHE thought she was seducing me somehow and I was pretty pissed (and engaged I might add). Now, without a doubt I handled it different and it didn't traumatize me, but when telling the story the next day on the ship, my Chief heard, pulled me aside and straight up told me not to make a deal out of it because our division didn't need any additional scrutinity and to not speak of it again 'or else'...... That pissed me off but I had three months left and preferred not to make them hell so I kept my mouth shut.

So I guess I have reason too have a reason to be biased in my opinion that there is a double standard.

But that has nothing to do with this case and the justified verdict. Just food for thought that it does happen to us.[/quote]

I also know somebody that this happened to. He woke up and a girl that had a crush on him was blowing him off. We heard a scream and he's running out of the living room with his pants down. It was mildly amusing, hopefully I'm not being insensitive to something that damatized him, but I think he got over it fine. I think the difference between this and penetration is the domination or helplessness factor. you were able to handle the situation and get her out of there. Had she been bigger than you and stronger than you and you were made helpless it probably would have been much much worse and imo that is the main difference.

[Guest thebadlady]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1735111' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.45']Slight nitpick, and to head off any cries of "How dare you call us rapists!", I would argue that the board population differs significantly from a general population sample, so the statistics in quoted sociological surveys probably don't apply. That said, very sorry to read about what happened to you. Its an ordeal I can't even begin to imagine.[/quote]


Thank you dear. :hug:

But....if you look at the stats I linked a million internet years ago, they did many studies on male and female college students. Def. not the unwashed masses. People driven to succede. Not your smash and grab rapist - usually. Just because someone reads the same book series/type as you, has a college degree, whatever would make you think they *have* to be ok because they like, aren't smoking crack....well. Bad assumptions to make.

30% of men my age said they would rape a woman if they could get away with it while they were in college. Thats damn near one out of THREE!!

I am in a total no trust mode as it is, then you start trying to figure out what is safe and what isn't and second guessing yourself... Its a fucking pit.

(oh, make that four guys, and yes, they all post here so I am not simply frothing :P.)

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Faelar006' post='1735104' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.40']Rape appears to be a singular case where not only must the jury decide if the defendant is guilty, but also in most cases, whether a crime even occurred, mainly because the vast majority of rape is acquaintance rape. Forensic evidence, barring something like drugs being found in someone's system, is rarely an indicator of whether a crime occurred, because forensic evidence from a rape victim is rarely different than forensic "evidence" gathered from someone who has had consensual sex. Even abrasions and tearing can occur during energetic sex. Rape is also different in that in the vast majority of cases, the accused agrees with the accuser for the most part on the particulars of the event, but disagrees with the interpretation.[/quote]

Often there are other injuries, even with acquaintance rape. But often there are not, so fair enough. Although, no, I don't think the parties generally agree on the facts. That is not very common.

[quote]Because of the singular nature of rape, the burden of proof required in such cases makes it difficult to obtain a conviction. Thinking about this, I wondered if it would perhaps be better to classify rape as a civil offense (maybe one of the legal people here can help me out on this, as I have no idea if this is even possible) in order to lower the burden of proof associated with it. However, this would also lower the penalties levied against the offender and I'm not sure how the accusers would feel about that. Opinions?[/quote]

Making rape not a crime is a terrible idea. You'd be pulling all the clear-cut rape cases out of the criminal justice system for one, and secondly, rape victims can already file civil suits for battery in tort if they are so inclined. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

ETA: Also, statistically, Ro is right about that too, IMHO. There are certainly men among us who have sexually assaulted people. An interesting and provocative thing to say though, definitely.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735119' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.48']It is my hair trigger button. Ihaven't really posted about this, but sheeet, no one is reading past page 5 anyway. :P

I haven't been able to work for the last 16 months because I had a bad flashback and got really agrophobic. I can't have sex. I can't stand being alone with a guy unless I have known him for a really really long time and I trust him (so like...3 guys outside of family). My shrink told me to give up on ever going back to work.

Basically, I am going to be fucking crazy as shit until I finally die. I am not thrilled about my life right now and I didn't take my meds so I am all the way me, and as you've seen, I am not all that fun or nice.[/quote]

:grouphug:

I was young and stupid (16 and a virgin) when i was raped. I was afraid to be with guys. Would start to shake violently after making out. When I went in the army I started drinking and one night had sex with a guy. I thought "wow, all I have to do to be able to be around guys is drink" so I started drinking all the time and sleeping with every guy I could. (sometimes as many as 5 a week) It was the worse possible way to deal with a rape and led to another which I pretended didn't happen by then having an affair with him. My own brand of crazy (and finally accepting my behavior as not making me a "bad person" is what my title is about)

We all get a little crazy sometimes. Hang in there, and as long as the meds don't fuck you up worse, take them. I would have lost my job if not for my meds.

[denstorebog]

[quote]I haven't been able to work for the last 16 months because I had a bad flashback and got really agrophobic. I can't have sex. I can't stand being alone with a guy unless I have known him for a really really long time and I trust him (so like...3 guys outside of family). My shrink told me to give up on ever going back to work.

Basically, I am going to be fucking crazy as shit until I finally die. I am not thrilled about my life right now and I didn't take my meds so I am all the way me, and as you've seen, I am not all that fun or nice.[/quote]

Seriously, this should stand side by side with Stego's account of his friend who was falsely accused of rape, as a total account of why false accusations of rape and ignored/downplayed accusations of rape are equally horrible. Plus, it should bookend this thread, imo.

[alguien]

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735119' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.48']It is my hair trigger button. Ihaven't really posted about this, but sheeet, no one is reading past page 5 anyway. :P

I haven't been able to work for the last 16 months because I had a bad flashback and got really agrophobic. I can't have sex. I can't stand being alone with a guy unless I have known him for a really really long time and I trust him (so like...3 guys outside of family). My shrink told me to give up on ever going back to work.

Basically, I am going to be fucking crazy as shit until I finally die. I am not thrilled about my life right now and I didn't take my meds so I am all the way me, and as you've seen, I am not all that fun or nice.[/quote]

God, I'm so sorry about that. My first serious girlfriend in college had the same thing happen to her about a year before we met and evinced most of the symptoms you describe. We never did much physically, which was totally fine by me, because I didn't want to pressure her and sometimes she'd get flashbacks. I just remember feeling so helpless because there was nothing I could do to help her. Eventually we both realized that however much we cared for each other, trying to date at that time was just not a good or healthy idea.

Several years later, we're still good friends. She went to therapy (still goes, I think) and still takes meds for anxiety (only on occasion) but she is doing awesome. She is much more confident and comfortable now. So take heart, I think people can make it back. :)

[Deluge]

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735130' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.54']30% of men my age said they would rape a woman if they could get away with it while they were in college. Thats damn near one out of THREE!![/quote]
Okay, well that truly is horrifying.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735119' date='Mar 26 2009, 21.48']It is my hair trigger button. Ihaven't really posted about this, but sheeet, no one is reading past page 5 anyway. :P

I haven't been able to work for the last 16 months because I had a bad flashback and got really agrophobic. I can't have sex. I can't stand being alone with a guy unless I have known him for a really really long time and I trust him (so like...3 guys outside of family). My shrink told me to give up on ever going back to work.

Basically, I am going to be fucking crazy as shit until I finally die. I am not thrilled about my life right now and I didn't take my meds so I am all the way me, and as you've seen, I am not all that fun or nice.[/quote]

Don't give up hope. You never know, things may get better. Perhaps you will meet a guy some day who you may learn to trust.

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735119' date='Mar 27 2009, 02.48']I haven't been able to work for the last 16 months because I had a bad flashback and got really agrophobic. I can't have sex. I can't stand being alone with a guy unless I have known him for a really really long time and I trust him (so like...3 guys outside of family). My shrink told me to give up on ever going back to work.

Basically, I am going to be fucking crazy as shit until I finally die. I am not thrilled about my life right now and I didn't take my meds so I am all the way me, and as you've seen, I am not all that fun or nice.[/quote]
:grouphug: