Is this rape?

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1734697' date='Mar 26 2009, 16.54']I believe in this case the evidence as it was was good enough for a trial, but obviously not good enough for a guilty verdict. I have no problem with someone being charged with a crime, any crime, when it's unclear if a crime have been committed. Sometimes you need a trial to confirm this. Anyone found guilty of a crime they haven't committed is of course a problem, but in this case this didn't happen.

Although I understand Stego's concern, I believe it's a minor problem compared to the number of rapes that are never prosecuted, or indeed the number of actual rapes were the offender is acquitted for various reasons.[/quote]

Well said. I agree 100%.

[Blaine]

[quote name='Seventh Pup' post='1734673' date='Mar 26 2009, 15.24']Back to this case, honestly don't know enough to know if she was raped or not. But I do think she has a good cause to feel taken advantage of. [b]What ever did happen she was obviously very, very, very drunk.[/b] Waking up with a strange man naked in her bed would be alarming, if the last thing you remember is being out with friends. Finding out that he had unprotected sex with you would likewise be very alarming. (She now has to worry about a whole host of terrible things that can happen to her body). If she thinks she is not the type of person who would agree to unprotected sex with a strange man she may have good cause to doubt his version of events. All of [b]which leads to a perfectly legitimate feeling of being wronged.[/b][/quote]
I agree, except that I believed she wronged herself. By neither account did anyone force her to drink to the point of blackout. Without any evidence as to what happened or who instigated sex, she only has herself to blame for losing control. It's not an act of god, it's her own actions that removed her good judgment from the situation.

[CloudFlare]

[quote name='denstorebog' post='1734459' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.23']Ah yes, those logical, unchangable laws set in stone from time immemorial.

Basically, it sounds like what you're saying is that your rules for what the respective genders should be afraid of is something universal. If that's what you believe - women get raped, men get beaten up - well, that's your stance. But that also implies that it's not something we can change by setting different standards.[/quote]

We have changed the standards(laws) with rape. It still happens though.

Pretending the law will make everything safe, and remove any need to be personally responsible, is foolish.

Edit: Thinking about it more, yes, standards do matter. In the middle east a women who is walking without male relatives is far game to be raped by those cultural standards.

In western cultures we have more or less established "no means no" as the standard. Modern western culture has destroyed the idea of a man being a gentleman though, so when she's too drunk to say no man's base nature takes hold.

Obviously not all the time, but it happens.

[Meili]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1734771' date='Mar 26 2009, 17.10']I agree, except that I believed she wronged herself. By neither account did anyone force her to drink to the point of blackout. Without any evidence as to what happened or who instigated sex, she only has herself to blame for losing control. It's not an act of god, it's her own actions that removed her good judgment from the situation.[/quote]

Agreed. It is 100% her actions that led to this. None here have stated she lied or isn't justified in filing charges. But she did drink to the point of blackout, and no matter what anyone says like 'I would never had done this!' or 'Why is he next to me! I would never have willingly sex with this person!' it's bullshit. You can talk, walk and dance all night and not remember a thing the next day. This has likely happened to most of us one time or another. Many of us have done something we would have NEVER done sober like maybe flashing your boobs or telling your best friend to fuck off. You don't remember doing it the next day and you are embarrassed. If that's what this is, then it is her fault and no blame of his at all. She could have had sex and then read Shakespear with him while spooning for all she knows.

The point is you can be totally coherent and still not remember the night and find out horrible things you did the night before.

Like I said, many men wake up next to women they do not remember having sex with and thinking 'Oh god, what did I do!!!!'. She said she woke up next to him and was shocked. Well, welcome to the world of alcohol abuse. Nothing good comes of drinking to the point of not remembering an entire night, most ending with regret and embarrassment but unless you were to incoherent to say no, (and even then it's a he/she said) then it would be rape.

BUT, if she was incoherent drunk, which is often blacked out, then yes, he did take advantage and should at least be charged but the fact is that since she doesn't remember what she did, invalidates any thoughts on what she 'normally' would have done. If this is rape, then I have been raped numerous times by having apparent sex with often sober women with whom I would never, EVER touch sober and not remembering a single sexual gesture I made leading her to believe I wanted to have sex with her. Once I didn't even know who the person was! [b]Did they take advantage of my drunkenness?[/b] Or was I coherent enough to hit on them, take them upstairs and make horrible drunk-sex possibly initiated by her? I'll never know. Lucky me that I don't drink anymore.

ETA Definition of Blackout pertaining to drinking [b]a period of total memory loss, as one induced by an accident or prolonged alcoholic drinking: The patient cannot account for the bizarre things he did during his blackout. [/b]

[TerraPrime]

I really enjoy reading the hypotheticals from male posters who said that they, too, had waken up from a black-out night to find themselves in bed next to women they'd find unattractive, and then proceed to question whether they, too, had been raped.

As if the attractiveness of the potential assailant has anything to do with the concept of rape.

The apparent assumption is that if I were to be asked, I would have given consent, therefore, even when I was not asked, it would not be rape. In other words, the assumed consent of one's partner is sufficient, and no expressed consent is needed.

But of course the world works this way. Because we know, as a fact, that plenty of men who post in Gen Chat here do not consider cases where a "hot" high school teacher having sex with an underaged male student to be rape. It is, in fact, something to be high-fived about.

The fact that the woman in question had made a poor judgment on her own alcohol tolerance has no bearing on the determination on whether a rape had taken place.

But you know what, two can play this game. If we go with the argument that she's somewhat responsible for getting raped because she got too drunk in her own home, then I'll counter and say that the alleged rapist is responsible for being accused of rape because he threw himself into a situation where consent for sex cannot be solidly established. Let's also extend this to say that people who date with emotionally disturbed people are responsible for getting stalked and that people who live in high-crime areas are responsible for getting their homes burglarized.


Also, as far as I can tell, most people seem to be assuming that she drank to the point of blacking out on her own volition, without solicitation and pressuring from her male guest. It is also worth noting that by the time he had stopped by her place, she had already had 4 bottles of wine. It was not mentioned how inebriated he was when he got to her apartment, though.

[Stego]

Falsely accusing people of rape and ruining their lives is not a minor problem in any way, shape, or form.

[TrackerNeil]

Lyanna, Ghost and Lany, don't get excited; what I said is not "blaming the victim" for rape. However, this situation is clearly not what most people think of when they hear the word "rape." What we have here is a woman who put herself in a situation in which the issue of consent is very, very muddy, and the fact that the "rapist" in question went himself to the police makes things even more confusing. Truth be told, I have to wonder if this was truly a crime or just an unfortunate misunderstanding. Certainly you must agree that this is not like a woman jumped from the bushes and beaten, where it's clear there is no consent.

Again, I don't know the facts of this case, nor do I know the relevant laws, but I think it's pretty clear that people who find themselves in these situations could and should do more to prevent them. If that's "blaming the victim", then I guess I am guilty as charged.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1734840' date='Mar 26 2009, 17.50']But you know what, two can play this game. If we go with the argument that she's somewhat responsible for getting raped because she got too drunk in her own home, then I'll counter and say that the alleged rapist is responsible for being accused of rape because he threw himself into a situation where consent for sex cannot be solidly established. Let's also extend this to say that people who date with emotionally disturbed people are responsible for getting stalked and that people who live in high-crime areas are responsible for getting their homes burglarized.[/quote]

Although I am not saying anyone is "responsible for getting raped", I agree that the man in this situation showed poor judgment as well. However, let's not forget who's on trial here.

[Meili]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1734840' date='Mar 26 2009, 17.50']I really enjoy reading the hypotheticals from male posters who said that they, too, had waken up from a black-out night to find themselves in bed next to women they'd find unattractive, and then proceed to question whether they, too, had been raped.[/quote] The fact that she is unattractive is a bad example. Use "Someone I KNOW I would never have consented to....sober"

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1734840' date='Mar 26 2009, 17.50']The apparent assumption is that if I were to be asked, I would have given consent, therefore, even when I was not asked, it would not be rape.[/quote]
Not at all and I don't see where you got that.

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1734840' date='Mar 26 2009, 17.50']But of course the world works this way. Because we know, as a fact, that plenty of men who post in Gen Chat here do not consider cases where a "hot" high school teacher having sex with an underage male student to be rape. It is, in fact, something to be high-fived about.[/quote]
Irrelevant and from my experience here I see the opposite from almost all posters. Ignorant people 'high-five' it. Most here, if anything, have issue that she isn't prosecuted enough. But again, irrelevant.

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1734840' date='Mar 26 2009, 17.50']The fact that the woman in question had made a poor judgment on her own alcohol tolerance has no bearing on the determination on whether a rape had taken place.[/quote]
[b]It has everything to do with it. [/b] Her poor judgment might have made her say "Fuck me Hard!". She could have been mumbling and slurring 'no'. We'll never know. But neither will she. Actually remembering whether or not you told a guy to fuck you or if you didn't, is kinda a big thing if you want to send a guy to prison.

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1734840' date='Mar 26 2009, 17.50']But you know what, two can play this game. If we go with the argument that she's somewhat responsible for getting raped[/quote]
No one has even hinted at that. 'She deserved rape??????' Come on, we debated if it WAS rape. Not if a woman deserves it or not. Putting words in mouths TP... And the analogy at the end was ridiculous to because it states clearly that someone 'deserves' something. No one [b]ever[/b] under any circumstance deserves this and many other things. All I am saying TP, is that she put herself in a position where she might have said or done anything and sounded coherent while doing so, but she can't remember. It happens. That is a fact. Who can tell what she did or didn't say during said blackout.... certainly not her.

[Derfel Cadarn]

I think that the guy went to the police himself for advice regarding the situation would indicate that he believed he was having consensual sex. Whether he's some sleazebag who thinks that having sex with someone too drunk to protest is acceptable, or whether it's a case of they were both very drunk and he interpreted her actions not only as consent but as willing participation is something that may never be satisfactorarily established.

Either way, it's cases like this that should encourage people to ensure that all parties are clearly consenting.

It's cases like this that highlight the problems with the old "No means no" approach to rape awareness.

[turinturambar]

If this is rape, then I've been raped numerous times.

IMO this is BS. How exactly is one suppose to know if one is too drunk to have sex? I've certainly regretted things before, but the decisions I make when drunk are still my decisions, even if they are bad ones.

Anyways, a person does not rape somebody and then sleep naked next to them. It's quite obvious that he thought she consented, and the mere thought that he may get convicted of something because some woman regrets what happened....well that's just a frightening precedent to start(although it sounds as if such a precedent has already been set).

Rape is a terrible crime, WHEN IT'S RAPE, this situation is just a messy one and it's sad to think that this guy could spend time in prison because some woman can't remember what she did the night before.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Derfel Cadarn' post='1734882' date='Mar 26 2009, 18.58']I think that the guy went to the police himself for advice regarding the situation would indicate that he believed he was having consensual sex. Whether he's some sleazebag who thinks that having sex with someone too drunk to protest is acceptable, or whether it's a case of they were both very drunk and he interpreted her actions not only as consent but as willing participation is something that may never be satisfactorarily established.[/quote] IMO the fact that he remained in the bed with her and slept there shows he obviously thought it was consensual.

[quote]Either way, it's cases like this that should encourage people to ensure that all parties are clearly consenting.[/quote] Here's the thing though...this guy thought she was clearly consenting. If this case is truly considered rape then "clear consent" doesn't mean shit because somebody can simply yell rape when they regret their actions from the evening before. Evidently, Clear Consent is null and void if the person cannot remember it. I guess in the future if somebody tries to pull such a move, then the other person should say they don't remember what happened as they were too drunk as well.

[quote]It's cases like this that highlight the problems with the old "No means no" approach to rape awareness.[/quote]

Yes. I guess Yes now means no as well if the consenter has drank a fair amount.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1734771' date='Mar 26 2009, 15.10']I agree, except that I believed she wronged herself. By neither account did anyone force her to drink to the point of blackout. Without any evidence as to what happened or who instigated sex, she only has herself to blame for losing control. It's not an act of god, it's her own actions that removed her good judgment from the situation.[/quote]
:agree: She should now face a defamation of character suite, and she should be arrested for filing a false police report.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Seventh Pup' post='1734622' date='Mar 26 2009, 14.36']If her flat screen TV was gone when she woke up, and this guy had taken it because he said she gave it to him; would there still be an attitude that he had a valid case? Would he have total rights to the TV because she gave to him when she was drunk. Would he have the right to her TV through implied consent, or the fact that she didn’t stop him from taking it out the door? Would she have the right to feel taken advantage of?[/quote]
Terrible Terrible analogy.

[Black Dow]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1734891' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.10']:agree: She should now face a defamation of character suite, and she should be arrested for filing a false police report.[/quote]

I'd be all for prosecuting anyone who files a false rape report- and for coming down of them with an iron fist when it comes time for sentencing in the event of a conviction. But, in this case, although there may not have been legally sufficient proof to sustain a rape conviction, I'm not seeing where anything this woman said was false. If the gist of her report was that she blacked out and didn't remember anything, it would be all but impossible to prove that she [i]did[/i] remember and that she really [i]did[/i] give consent, and that's she lying about the whole thing.

Prosecuting the alleged victim should be rarest of remedies, and only when it can realistically be proven that the allegation was false, or that the alleged victim perjured herself.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1734891' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.10']:agree: She should now face a defamation of character suite, and she should be arrested for filing a false police report.[/quote]

How did she defame him? She did not know if she consented. She believed she was to drunk to consent. He was charged by the police when he told them his story. She did not lie. He did not lie.

[Lightning Lord]

I don't think that prosecuting the accuser is a good idea. It is a hard enough thing to come forward about being raped, but with the implication that you'll have penalties if the defendant is found innocent would hinder the process even more, making it an even more difficult thing to come forward.

From the two stories I have read, this case seems a lot like what he said happened vs what she thinks should have happened. (meaning, from how she perceives herself in general, this isn't something she thinks she'd consent to)

I don't know the British law well enough, but how do they determine if she was too drunk to consent?

[Guest thebadlady]

[quote name='Waldo Frey' post='1733630' date='Mar 25 2009, 22.55'][url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164402/Man-accused-rape-lawyer-victim-drunk-remember.html"]Full story[/url]

What do you think?[/quote]

I think if you have to ask if its rape, you are really sorta clueless.

[quote name='Stego' post='1733755' date='Mar 26 2009, 01.37']Poor guy.[/quote]

Poor guy fucked a chick so drunk she has no memory of a large chunk of her evening. Who in gods fucking green hell thinks fucking someone that sloppy drunk is a good idea or even...good? I am all for drunk fucking, not fucking someone who is fucking drunk.

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1733815' date='Mar 26 2009, 05.20']Why all this assumption that "consenting" is the default state until someone says No? If you were browsing round a car showroom one evening, and woke up with a hangover to find a rusty old banger parked outside and £3000 missing from your bank account, you'd rightly assume that you'd been taken advantage of by the car salesman. It's not always the "no" that makes it rape, often it's the lack of "yes". You wonder why the rape conviction rates are so low? Take a good look at all the attitudes in this thread. :tantrum:[/quote]

Look at Meili. I seriously gagged when I read that vile stupidity.

Lets face it people. We get drunk and we fuck. I really don't see where its a great idea to get [b]utterly [/b]pissed and have sex with a stranger or even someone you do know. Keep doing it and someday you wake up, dick cut off and whining, oh she cut my dick off. That is exactly what you are saying for a woman - she wakes up, realizes that someone fucked her and she has no idea who he is, why he is there, but she knows there was fucking. This isn't bad sex survivor anger. This is a legitimate sexual assault. Right. Lets blame her for drinking since its never the man's fault. You know that if the dick cut off scenario happened, there would be UPROAR, JAIL, HATEZ MAIL!!!!

Fuck off with your double standards and explain to me how fucking someone who is so drunk they blackout is different than slipping them a roofie and fucking them. A matter of who bought the drug? Consent of the drug? You get someone that drunk and its no goddammed different than drugging them.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1733825' date='Mar 26 2009, 05.43']I knew I should have stayed out of this thread.

How can the victim be responsible for something that was [i]done to her[/i]? Did she rape herself? Maybe we can put the responsibility where it belongs, the bloke saying "Well, yah, I didn't bother asking if she wanted to have sex with me, but I was [i]drunk[/i] so I couldn't possibly be responsible for where I put my dick?"

Oh wait, everyone already thinks it was her fault anyway, so he doesn't need to start making excuses.[/quote]
Something done to her? It takes two to have sex ya know. If they both have sex without any clear lack of consent then they are both doing something to each other. She raped him just as much as he raped her.

Also, it seems a bit hypocritical of you to call people out for assuming it's her fault when you seem to be doing the same thing in assuming him to be guilty.

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Lany Cassandra' post='1734904' date='Mar 26 2009, 19.29']How did she defame him? She did not know if she consented. She believed she was to drunk to consent. He was charged by the police when he told them his story. She did not lie. He did not lie.[/quote]
How can you bring a case to trial because you "don't think you gave consent". Either you did or you didn't. It's extremely irresponsible to bring something to trial based on opinion. This guy will be paying off lawyer bills for a long time and that's only the most minor of lasting effects he'll see. His reputation is ruined. he may have troubles finding work. It could effect his future relationships. This is something that could chase him for the rest of his life. All because she "thinks" she was too drunk to consent.