Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Raidne, [quote name='Raidne' post='1735694' date='Mar 27 2009, 10.17']Come on. You're not on the jury. You think the only evidence they're getting is what's been out in the press? This man is innocent until proven guilty, but we can't know if he will be proven guilty or not. We are working on a paltry amount of information here.[/quote] About six or seven pages back someone posted a link indicating the jury acquitted him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Raidne' post='1735665' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.59']You know, a lot of times when guys sexually assault or rape people, I'm not sure they really even think that's what they did. So it would be unusual for them to go around talking about it.[/quote] This. Especially if their definition of consent is "I thought she was giving me the come-on" or "she invited me in, what did she expect?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1735701' date='Mar 27 2009, 10.23']About six or seven pages back someone posted a link indicating the jury acquitted him.[/quote] Oh well, in that case, it looks like he's innocent. It seems like the judge thought the woman's argument was essentially that she [i]had[/i] consented, but that her consent couldn't count because she was drunk, which, as the judge rightly points out, is totally false. I don't understand what the problem with the "I thought she was giving me the come-on" phrase is. She started flirting and talking about how young he was, drank two more bottles of wine with him after her friend left, so that's what it seems like to me too. He's not saying I thought I could stick my penis in her because she was flirting with me, he's saying I thought she wanted to go upstairs and take it to the next level because of her behavior, and then her behavior on the way up there and once they were up there indicated that she wanted to have sex. OTOH, I do have to say that I don't know how he's being quoted, but this is one defendant who should just talk as little as possible. She seemed to be enjoying it because she was groaning? That just gives me a mental picture of a drunk woman just lying there groaning while some gross dude has sex with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Raidne' post='1735715' date='Mar 27 2009, 14.33']I don't understand what the problem with the "I thought she was giving me the come-on" phrase is.[/quote] I don't know about America, but in the UK it's a sad-but-true cliche that "she was asking for it" is not only (falsely) used as an actual defence against rape but as an excuse by police, prosecutors and judges to get rapists acquitted of rape. Therefore, saying it even in a context like this is very, very dodgy. Then again, I'm coming from a fictional background where the cliche defence against a rape charge isn't "she was asking for it" but "she didn't kill or mutilate me afterwards", so YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Also, it's a rather wishy-washy and vague statement, in a circumstance where it was far from clear what had happened. If this was the best example of her "consent" that he could come up, I'm not surprised the police decided to prosecute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kouran Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Raidne' post='1735665' date='Mar 27 2009, 08.59']Me neither, but I do know a couple of guys who have raped people, and I know they have friends. :dunno: You know, a lot of times when guys sexually assault or rape people, I'm not sure they really even think that's what they did. So it would be unusual for them to go around talking about it.[/quote] You know this has always been something that I just couldn’t understand. What is so hard to understand in that you, a hypothetical person, just don’t take advantage of someone who is in a compromised state of mind? I never allow myself to get in a state like that ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Kouran' post='1735781' date='Mar 27 2009, 11.12']You know this has always been something that I just couldn’t understand. What is so hard to understand in that you, a hypothetical person, just don’t take advantage of someone who is in a compromised state of mind? I never allow myself to get in a state like that ever.[/quote] It doesn't always involve intoxication. I have a friend who raped by a someone she thought was a friend who - ironically - offered to walk her to her car for her safety and then raped her in it. She was perfectly sober. He called her the next day to see when they could get together again. I was raped by my first boyfriend when I was 15, totally sober - we were messing around, pretty much naked, and he just decided to go for it. I realized what he was going to do with enough time t o say, hey, no about twice but not enough time to really fight back, although I did eventually get him off me. He broke up with me - after a year and a half of dating - the next day because I was a "bad influence." So much for losing my virginity in a way I'd like to remember. A couple years later, there he is still, showing up at the store I worked at and trying to look up my skirt while I was on the ladder. [i]I[/i] did not even realize this was rape until I was 18 - I'm sure he had no idea. Of course, by the time he was 19 he was in a very serious car accident and flipped his car off the highway on his way home from work. Came out a paraplegic. I [i]drove by the accident[/i] on my way home from a friends house, I kid you not. That totally happened. So karma really dealt me out all the justice I ever needed. Since we're all sharing. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Black Dow' post='1735681' date='Mar 27 2009, 09.11']We don't really know whether she consented. Since we don't know, not guilty. Presumption of innocence, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, better to let 10 guilty go than to convict 1 innocent, etc.[/quote] Did I say the man is guilty? I don't think so. The point is that Stego claimed that the woman had consented. By all accounts, she doesn't remember that she gave consent. I was just baffled how one gets the idea that she had consented based on the accounts being posted. The issue of whether the woman was raped hinges on consent. When Stego said that she had consented, he's basically saying that she was not raped. Let me also point out that the acquittal of the accused does not mean that the woman had consented. It just means that the jury did not find the prosecutor's case to be convincing. This will remain a he-said vs she-said situation, regardless of the outcome of the legal procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turinturambar Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='The Kreb' post='1735389' date='Mar 27 2009, 01.58']I think the crux of this whole argument relies on if you are actually still YOU when you black out. Personally, I believe you are.[/quote] It is often difficult to tell if somebody is "blacked out". Often they appear to be no different than any other drunk person, how are you to know that they aren't going to remember anything? [quote]Oh really. Is the consent part of her not remembering? Or did I miss something? Whatever do you mean that she consented?[/quote] Well, being that she can't remember, she can't rightfully say she didn't consent either. This is the main reason there should not have been enough evidence for this to be brought to court. How to you try something based on something somebody does not remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='ljkeane' post='1735619' date='Mar 27 2009, 05.22']I don't know about anyone else but I've never been told by any of my friends that they raped someone and I'd be very concerned if one of your friends had told you they were a rapist.[/quote] You miss the point entirely. of course no one has ever told me that he was a rapist. But there are things happening right now in every dorm in this country between male friends that contribute to the environment where rape is so common, and we shouldn't be tolerating them. Most everyone would step in if they actually saw someone being raped, that isn't the issue. it's about changing the culture that leads to people thinking it's not a big deal to push too far, or that it's just part of the mating ritual to ignore the resistance of the person who you likely know, and may even be dating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='turinturambar' post='1735921' date='Mar 27 2009, 12.52']Well, being that she can't remember, she can't rightfully say she didn't consent either. This is the main reason there should not have been enough evidence for this to be brought to court. How to you try something based on something somebody does not remember?[/quote] Based on other evidence. Like the statement of the person who [i]does[/i] remember. Which is what seems to have happened here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='turinturambar' post='1735921' date='Mar 27 2009, 11.52']Well, being that she can't remember, she can't rightfully say she didn't consent either.[/quote] That's a fair statement to make. But it was not the statement that I was responding to, and which spawned this little exchange. So I'm not sure what your point is in the context of my request for clarification on how Stego knows that the woman had consented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='TerraPrime' post='1735994' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.49']That's a fair statement to make. But it was not the statement that I was responding to, and which spawned this little exchange. So I'm not sure what your point is in the context of my request for clarification on how Stego knows that the woman had consented.[/quote] The man said she did. :D As he is the only witness, we must take his word for it, right? Or do we simply assume that he is a rapist? I'd rather not just assume such about anyone without evidence. And there is absolutely zero evidence. As such, he is absolutely innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Raidne' post='1735665' date='Mar 27 2009, 08.59']You know, a lot of times when guys sexually assault or rape people, I'm not sure they really even think that's what they did. So it would be unusual for them to go around talking about it.[/quote] Yeah, I'm think this is where thebadlady's 30% figure comes from. They don't ask: "Would you ever sexually assaulted a women?", cause pretty much EVERYONE is gonna say "No!". It's probably "Would you fuck a drunk chick?" and you get a bunch of "How hot is she?" answers back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Shryke, [quote]It's probably "Would you fuck a drunk chick?" and you get a bunch of "How hot is she?" answers back.[/quote] That's a problem, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Stego' post='1736019' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.11']The man said she did. :D As he is the only witness, we must take his word for it, right? Or do we simply assume that he is a rapist? I'd rather not just assume such about anyone without evidence. And there is absolutely zero evidence. As such, he is absolutely innocent.[/quote] That is awesome. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1736039' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.24']Shryke, That's a problem, in my opinion.[/quote] Well obviously. I think Swordfish is much closer to the truth. It's more about a general culture. It's not that there's a bunch of psychopath "jump out of the bushes" rapists around. It's that there's a bunch of guys who are "scoring drunk chick at the local frat party" or the like. And that, sadly, is ALOT more difficult to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Shryke, What I don't understand is how anyone would believe jumping a super drunk woman, or man for that matter, [i]isn't[/i] rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Two drunk people fumbling at each other in lust is not rape. FFS, people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 [quote name='Stego' post='1736077' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.47']Two drunk people fumbling at each other in lust is not rape. FFS, people.[/quote] Exactly. As I said before, all men should just slam down 5 vodka shots and go to town. We can start editing out all the rape laws in our books now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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