Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='turinturambar' post='1738870' date='Mar 30 2009, 15.18']A prison sentence would keep her off the streets and keep her from doing this shit again. She can receive counseling in prison. Insanity should never be an excuse for anybody to get off of a murder charge. If somebody can take a life, they can certainly do it again. And again. And again.[/quote] Maybe I'm missing some details about the plea agreement from the article, but it's not necessarily clear that she will be on the streets. "Probation and treatment" doesn't necessarily mean seeing a therapist twice a week while she works at the day-care center; it probably means that they'll try to find her a place in an in-patient institution that she won't be permitted to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote]Hitler was not an atheist, and Stalin of course, was a trained priest... (albeit a eventually a defrocked one)[/quote]But neither did anything in the name of religion, and point of fact were very anti-religious in policies. As a was Mao. I still think that it's people, not religion, that suck. Religion is just one of many excuses used for people to fuck over other people. Get rid of it entirely and you'll have people fucking over people for money, for fame, for land, for genetics, for appearance, for their shoes, for whatever. Fixing that doesn't happen by removing religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='TerraPrime' post='1738610' date='Mar 30 2009, 08.14']I am sorry for the young child who became a victim of his parent's religious convictions. But this is hardly new, nor uncommon. From genital mutilation to stiffling of intellectual development, many religious parents are both convinced of the good these practices are and the righteousness of their actions. That said, I err on the side of allowing people to practice their religion as they see fit. I think this case is tragic, but I don't think it is a crime to follow odd and unreasonable (to the non-members of the group) codes of behavior.[/quote] :stunned: Even if they include starving a kid to death?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1738899' date='Mar 30 2009, 20.58']But neither did anything in the name of religion, and point of fact were very anti-religious in policies. As a was Mao.[/quote] "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work." - Mein Kampf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote]"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work." - Mein Kampf.[/quote]Yeah, but you might've noticed that Hitler very frequently lied. :) Regardless, I hope you can reasonably agree that the Nazi movement was not fueled by religious beliefs. They weren't saying Heil Gott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lucan Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hitler had a certain interest in the supernatural and the occult, and the Wehrmacht had "God is with us" on their belt buckles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1738919' date='Mar 30 2009, 14.13']Yeah, but you might've noticed that Hitler very frequently lied. :) Regardless, I hope you can reasonably agree that the Nazi movement was not fueled by religious beliefs. They weren't saying Heil Gott.[/quote] Nor was it fueled by atheism. I don't know why religious people always bring up Nazism and Stalinism as examples of atrocities committed in the name of atheism. Just because an atrocity isn't committed under the name of a particular religion/god doesn't automatically make it atheistic in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lucan Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Right, those would be atrocities in the name of fascism/communism. Irrelevant to atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Ser Lucan the Laughing' post='1738937' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.20']Right, those would be atrocities in the name of fascism/communism. Irrelevant to atheism.[/quote] And religion. Which I think was the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 So why were they called the Militant Godless, and not the Militant Communists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1738919' date='Mar 30 2009, 21.13']Yeah, but you might've noticed that Hitler very frequently lied. :)[/quote] You can't just throw out the things he said that you don't like on this basis. Regardless, either he believed he was doing god's work in persecuting the Jews, or he was playing on the religious beliefs of others to that goal. Either way......... [quote]I hope you can reasonably agree that the Nazi movement was not fueled by religious beliefs.[/quote] Hitler's religious beliefs played a part. He may not have liked [i]organised[/i] religion very much, but that's besides the point here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1738940' date='Mar 30 2009, 14.23']So why were they called the Militant Godless, and not the Militant Communists?[/quote] Who called them that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Kalbear, [quote name='Kalbear' post='1738899' date='Mar 30 2009, 15.58']But neither did anything in the name of religion, and point of fact were very anti-religious in policies. As a was Mao. I still think that it's people, not religion, that suck. Religion is just one of many excuses used for people to fuck over other people. Get rid of it entirely and you'll have people fucking over people for money, for fame, for land, for genetics, for appearance, for their shoes, for whatever. Fixing that doesn't happen by removing religion.[/quote] QFT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote]You can't just throw out the things he said that you don't like on this basis. Regardless, either he believed he was doing god's work in persecuting the Jews, or he was playing on the religious beliefs of others to that goal. Either way.........[/quote]Do you really think that the whole master race/jews are in a plot to destroy the world bit was preying on [i]religious[/i] views? Where in the bible is there anything about Aryans? Come on now. [quote]Hitler's religious beliefs played a part. He may not have liked organised religion very much, but that's besides the point here.[/quote]It's kind of massively the point. People are saying how horrible religion is, but religion didn't make Germans do the things they did. It didn't make Stalin do the things they did. It didn't make Mao do the things they did. I'm not saying that Atheism is just as bad as religion. I'm saying that at the core of all of it is people doing bad things to other people on some pretense of dehumanizing them. You can dehumanize them because they've got more money or believe in a different thing or look different or speak differently or whatever, but it's all going to be used at one point or another. And it's all going to be used to do horrible things to other humans. Religion is just one differentiating characteristic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Ser Reptitious' post='1738944' date='Mar 30 2009, 16.26']Who called them that?[/quote] They called themselves that. The Militant Godless was a group of, yes communists but also primarily atheists, who made it their duty to attack the religious. Atheists can be extremists you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Ser Rep., [quote name='Ser Reptitious' post='1738936' date='Mar 30 2009, 16.19']Nor was it fueled by atheism. I don't know why religious people always bring up Nazism and Stalinism as examples of atrocities committed in the name of atheism. Just because an atrocity isn't committed under the name of a particular religion/god doesn't automatically make it atheistic in nature.[/quote] But Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were unfriendly toward organized established faith and each managed to commit atrocities that were equal to or greater than attrocities commited by people of faith. The common element in all attrocities is not theism or atheism, but that those commiting the attrocities are people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1738948' date='Mar 30 2009, 21.29']Do you really think that the whole master race/jews are in a plot to destroy the world bit was preying on [i]religious[/i] views? Where in the bible is there anything about Aryans? Come on now.[/quote] Nearly 2000 years of anti-semitism was based on the Jews killing Christ. Hitler either believed that or preyed on that belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1738952' date='Mar 30 2009, 16.32']Nearly 2000 years of anti-semitism was based on the Jews killing Christ. Hitler either believed that or preyed on that belief.[/quote] That's a stupid way of summing up a long and complex history. Modern "scientific" anti-Semitism isn't the same thing as medieval Judeophobia. The racial dimension wasn't orignally a part of Christian hatred of the Jews, but for Hitler, it was everything. And besides which, by the turn of the twentieth century, anti-Semitism wasn't a uniquely religious phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote]Nearly 2000 years of anti-semitism was based on the Jews killing Christ. Hitler either believed that or preyed on that belief.[/quote]Which is why Hitler invaded Poland? Or why he rounded up the gypsies? The Holocaust wasn't the only thing that Hitler did, ya know. In any case, let's say that Hitler's whole thing was entirely based around Christian ideals just to take it off the table. What about the 20 million people that Stalin killed? How about the 2 million dead from the Khmer Rouge? How about the ethnic cleansing of the Hutu and Tutsi? How was religion responsible for these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1738951' date='Mar 30 2009, 14.32']Ser Rep., But Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were unfriendly toward organized established faith and each managed to commit atrocities that were equal to or greater than attrocities commited by people of faith. The common element in all attrocities is not theism or atheism, but that those commiting the attrocities are people.[/quote] Scot, I see your point and I basically agree with it. For the record, I very much agree that in many instances where atrocities are committed religion is merely a smoke-screen. And if the Militant Godless have actually committed atrocities themselves (I've done some quick wiki research but couldn't find any confirmation that they did) in the name of atheism, the same argument could be made there. Having said that, there are certainly instances where religion is very much the driving force behind committing a particular atrocity (although I agree that it's usually still interwoven with other elements). Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that it bothers me that when atrocities are committed that are [i]not[/i] specifically done in the name of a religion/faith, people of faith seem quick to link said atrocities with atheism (with Hitler being the perfect example), even though there is absolutely no basis for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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