A Baptism dilemma

[Eponine]

[quote name='ljkeane' post='1755646' date='Apr 15 2009, 06.54']I'm surprised by how many people consider the fact that they are an atheist such a significant issue, I can understand why people who are religious are concerned about belief in God and feel it is an important part of their lives and are not prepared to compromise about their beliefs but if you don't belive in God why do you care about religion?[/quote]

It's pretty important if you have an incredibly religious family whose life is centered around the church. I think it's hard for those who have never grown up particularly or strictly religious to understand how it can permeate one's entire life.

It can be a choice between being having a relationship built on lies or having a broken relationship and maybe a complete separation. That's not an easy choice. I really think that my mother's recent sicknesses have been because she's so emotionally worn down from being upset over me coming out with my deconversion. I know that I can't blame myself, but it was not an easy consequence to accept.

[dalThor]

[quote name='EHK for Darwin' post='1755635' date='Apr 15 2009, 13.33']Yeah its shitty that we live in a society where its presumed ok to push this sort of shit on non-believing relatives and refusal always makes you out to be the asshole. We don't apply the same standards or make the same demands of believers in this sort of thing. I highly doubt any Christians would agree to go to Koran classes and be baptized under allah (or however they signify entrance into the faith) for similar purposes. And noone would look down upon them for refusing. But atheists don't get the same benefit of the doubt, we're expected to bend in this in order to appease the faithful. Christians (and others) throw their faith in our faces at their leisure and think nothing of it. (nor does society generally) We don't have the same luxury.[/quote]
If I wanted to join the "Westeros Un-Cat Church" or some such organization I'd have to...do whatever the group told me told me to do (for example, profess some faith that Un-Cat lives or some such thing). Why is it wrong for any organization to require that people wishing admission share their beliefs? So you don't believe? No problem whatsoever. We here at the Church of the Un-Cat do, and if you'd like to participate, join with us or go join some other kind of organization in which you share some kind of common bond.

EHK, a Christian wouldn't go and swear to Allah for one simple reason. They don't have a need to become a member of the group. Why would they then swear to it?

Because being a God-parent is just that, God related, there is a certain amount of commitment inherit in it. You don't believe? I really have no problem with it and I wouldn't expect (or want) you to lie about it. I'm perfectly fine with whatever beliefs any individual might or might not have. I've never gone and tried to convert anyone nor would I. I don't give people dirty looks. I don't look down my nose at them or whisper about them when they aren't looking.

For those of you who have militant religious backgrounds and now face 'eternal damnation' I sympathize. It's wrong for people to try and jam religion down a person's throat. My parents (mom) did it and I hated it. I left the Catholic church for years (after I had moved out and was no longer required to follow my mom's rules) and she was fairly cool about it. I'm no longer Catholic but I did join another, very similar church.

[TerraPrime]

Re: dal'Thor

[quote name='dalThor' post='1755837' date='Apr 15 2009, 09.56']EHK, a Christian wouldn't go and swear to Allah for one simple reason. They don't have a need to become a member of the group. Why would they then swear to it?[/quote]


I think you might have missed EHK's point on this.

Atheism is not given the same consideration as theism by many people in the context of having to go against one's conviction for the sake of maintaining social niceties among family and relatives. If you are a Methodist, for instance, you might find people to be more understanding of you asserting your faith and refusing to participate in Catholic social events. If you are an atheist, on the other hand, more people will likely think of you as just a douche who wants to make waves for selfish reasons.

[Teri]

[quote name='Silverstar' post='1754872' date='Apr 14 2009, 12.58']My sister did actually turn up to the party for my niece's christening wearing fairy wings and carrying a wand, to suit her role as fairy godmother.[/quote]

I suspect that's a large part of the image in this little girl's mind anyway. It's probably not that she cares so much about the ceremony in the church, but that she's drawing on her familiarity with Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty and their fairy godmothers, a role in which Pebble would be perfect.

So I agree with others who have suggested that solution. Explain that a "church godmother" has to be someone who belongs to her church, but Pebble can be her "secret helper godmother", like Cinderella had, which is much better, since anyone can have a church godmother, but only very special little girls have secret helper godmothers. And have some kind of little party with dress-up costumes to celebrate it.

[dalThor]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1755848' date='Apr 15 2009, 18.12']I think you might have missed EHK's point on this.

Atheism is not given the same consideration as theism by many people in the context of having to go against one's conviction for the sake of maintaining social niceties among family and relatives. If you are a Methodist, for instance, you might find people to be more understanding of you asserting your faith and refusing to participate in Catholic social events. If you are an atheist, on the other hand, more people will likely think of you as just a douche who wants to make waves for selfish reasons.[/quote]
I think what you mean is that, a Methodist not attending a baptism in a Catholic church is given a pass whereas a non-theist is not?

If that is the case I totally agree. It's bullshit.

Was that it?


ETA: The advice on the Super Secret Godmother is the best solution.

[Angalin]

[quote name='Silverstar' post='1755641' date='Apr 15 2009, 05.49']Or, as in my example earlier, the Christians, i.e our local friendly vicar, bent the rules to allow me to become a godparent to my niece despite not being baptised or going to church myself, thereby not forcing anything on me, but enabling me to take part in a ceremony that meant a lot to my family without causing any crises of faith for me.

It does go both ways quite often, especially in the UK, where, as Hereward has said, [b]the Church of England does tend to bend and be pretty flexible about a lot of things. [/b]

Might be different in the US, but Pebble is from the UK, afaik.[/quote]
That's why I'm kind of surprised that we're having this discussion at all. The majority of the Anglican communion in the UK and Canada is far more about good works and the parish community than it is about God or Christ, so Pebbles's vicar wanting her to be baptised is pretty unusual, I'd say. The still-militant Anglicans are, IIRC, in Africa where they compete for believers with the pagans and the Catholics. They might as well be two completely different churches. :/

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1755751' date='Apr 15 2009, 08.33']Hm. And for those irresponsible parents who have not made a will? Who should decide then? Maybe we could put the kids up for auction, in a free-market solution? Maybe a first-come-first-served option? Turn 'em out in the streets to earn their own keep? [b]Why is it such a terrible crime to have a particular department of government be responsible for allocating carers to orphaned children? :huh:[/b][/quote]
Don't know what children's services are like where you are, but here in Manitoba they are crap. The system is overloaded, files get lost, one little girl was dead for nine months (while her parents collected welfare benefits for her) before her step-brother told the police that her parents had killed her. Several children die every year in care in a province with a population of just over one million. Maybe my children would sidetrack that system and go straight to a family member, but as there are relatives I definitely [i]don't[/i] want raising my children, that's not acceptable to me either. /endrant - I just feel really strongly about this!

There are free, basic, lawyer-approved will forms online for those who can't afford to see a lawyer.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Teri' post='1755872' date='Apr 15 2009, 11.33']Explain that a "church godmother" has to be someone who belongs to her church, but Pebble can be her "secret helper godmother", like Cinderella had, which is much better, since anyone can have a church godmother, but only very special little girls have secret helper godmothers. And have some kind of little party with dress-up costumes to celebrate it.[/quote]

A tiny quibble, but I might not want to use the word secret and might also want to find a different title than godmother. Because if pebble declines, a different person will be asked right? And though pebble will have a special relationship with the girl, I fear that being the "secret godmother" might kind of undermine the official godmother.

[Angalin]

[quote name='Teri' post='1755872' date='Apr 15 2009, 10.33']I suspect that's a large part of the image in this little girl's mind anyway. It's probably not that she cares so much about the ceremony in the church, but that she's drawing on her familiarity with Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty and their fairy godmothers, a role in which Pebble would be perfect.

So I agree with others who have suggested that solution. Explain that a "church godmother" has to be someone who belongs to her church, but Pebble can be her "secret helper godmother", like Cinderella had, which is much better, since anyone can have a church godmother, but only very special little girls have secret helper godmothers. And have some kind of little party with dress-up costumes to celebrate it.[/quote]
:lol: I would like to put in an official request now for a picture of Pebbles in fairy wings and pink tulle, please!

[Pebble thats Stubby]

To avoid confusion I am not related to my friends children. Although their father was the best man at my wedding and has the same surname as my maiden name. My Husband met the father about 24-25 years ago and are very good friends. We spend a lot of time with them and their children. So being Godmother or not is not gonna effect my own family or cause any upset with my family. (do ya know how hard it is to write this clearly without using any names?)

The difficulty with my own family comes if I get baptised. They ether get invited to my baptism which would mean a lot to my Grandmother as she would be really glad I had now been saved and would re-double her efforts to "convert" my Parents and my Brother (and she would look to me for support). Or they all would be offended that I would shut them out of that part of my life. They would not understand why I would consider doing this to make someone else happy.

Now with all that in mind and everything that’s been written in this thread I feel much better at refusing the Vicars request that I'm Baptised. I am and will go to the classes and Sunday services if it's still required to play a part in the Christening ceremony but I'm drawing the line at making any personal statement of faith. I think if I'm honest I had already decided that’s what I was going to do, it just felt like I was taking the easy way out as it wouldn't harm me to get dunked but it would have been an inconvenience.

So after a chat with the little one's parents it turns out they are relieved that I'm no-longer considering being baptised - apparently they would feel guilty putting me through all that but did not know how to say it. They have also made an appointment with the Vicar where we can all talk about some options for tomorrow morning. Apparently they are also considering changing to a different church but the reason they chose this one is because it's where the Mum was christened. (Its not there local church) so we will see what happens tomorrow.

If the Vicar is unable to accommodate my friends wishes and find a suitable role for me (I agree that I can't be a God Parent, and I'm not asking for the Vicar to compromise his beliefs) then we will have an extra unofficial ceremony that we will make up. (we may end up doing this anyway)

I'll let you all know what happens tomorrow.




Oh and the state interfering in the care of orphaned children I believe only happens if the parents had not made legal provision ie. Naming guardians in a will or something. The state may make some checks to ensure that the named Guardian wants the orphaned child and is able to provide immediate care. If no Guardians have been named then the orphaned child is the states responsibility although guardianship will normally be granted to living family members after checks have been carried out. (I think the child can remain with the family while the checks are being done but not sure)

[DanteGabriel]

Pebble, sounds like you and the parents have a pretty good handle on this delicate situation. I wish you and the little girl and her family joy on the occasion.

[Eponine]

I think you're making the best possible choices.

[ljkeane]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1755836' date='Apr 15 2009, 15.54']It's pretty important if you have an incredibly religious family whose life is centered around the church. I think it's hard for those who have never grown up particularly or strictly religious to understand how it can permeate one's entire life.

It can be a choice between being having a relationship built on lies or having a broken relationship and maybe a complete separation. That's not an easy choice. I really think that my mother's recent sicknesses have been because she's so emotionally worn down from being upset over me coming out with my deconversion. I know that I can't blame myself, but it was not an easy consequence to accept.[/quote]

If it's an issue that could cost you your family then I can certainly understand why it's an important concern for you and I can't really say what I would do under those circumstances.

I don't think that most people who define themselves as atheists face the same problems though and I don't understand why some atheists try to equate their beliefs with the religious beliefs of those who do believe in whatever religion.

If you are religious I can understand why your religion is an important part of your life and why you might believe you are helping someone if you attempt to convert them etc even if it is irritating, on the other hand I don't really see why some people feel the absence of belief is significant and try to convince others.

[TerraPrime]

Re: ljkeane

(since pebble has pretty much resolved this, I'll distract a bit)

[quote name='ljkeane' post='1755939' date='Apr 15 2009, 11.47']I don't think that most people who define themselves as atheists face the same problems though and I don't understand why some atheists try to equate their beliefs with the religious beliefs of those who do believe in whatever religion.[/quote]

What gives you the idea that most atheists don't face the same problems, i.e., being asked to participate in religious activities and feeling pressured into pretending for the sake of maintaining social harmony within friends and family groups?

Also, why can't we expect the same degree of respect for our non-beliefs as theists can expect for their beliefs?


[quote]If you are religious I can understand why your religion is an important part of your life and why you might believe you are helping someone if you attempt to convert them etc even if it is irritating, on the other hand I don't really see why some people feel the absence of belief is significant and try to convince others.[/quote]

Do you profess the same level of not-seeing when a theist professes his/her faith and/or tries to convince others? Which, if you would care to look, happen daily and is quite common for many Christian faiths. The Mormons and the Catholics, for example, have extensive missionary work where the sole purpose is to profess their faith to non-believers in order to convince them to join.

And if religion can be an important part of someone's life, then why can't the absence of religion be just as important and defining for a person's life experience? What's the difference?

[ljkeane]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1755964' date='Apr 15 2009, 18.05']Do you profess the same level of not-seeing when a theist professes his/her faith and/or tries to convince others? Which, if you would care to look, happen daily and is quite common for many Christian faiths. The Mormons and the Catholics, for example, have extensive missionary work where the sole purpose is to profess their faith to non-believers in order to convince them to join.

And if religion can be an important part of someone's life, then why can't the absence of religion be just as important and defining for a person's life experience? What's the difference?[/quote]

The problems I was talking about were with regard to Eponine saying her beliefs would create a serious problem with her family rather than the issue of having to participate in religious ceremonies etc.

To be honest I do think religious belief is more important for those who follow a religion than the absence of belief is for atheists, if a religious person attempts to convert someone to their faith they sincerely believe they are saving that person from hell or whatever it is their faith says. So although I don't think this gives them the right to impose their beliefs on others I do have more sympathy for religious people who spend time trying to convert non believers to their faith than I do for atheists who try convince those with religious faith that there is no God.

[Shryke]

[quote]Also, why can't we expect the same degree of respect for our non-beliefs as theists can expect for their beliefs?[/quote]

I think most non-idiots would say you can and should. But, as you said above:
[quote]Atheism is not given the same consideration as theism by many people[/quote]

So, again, "Do onto others as some asshole did onto me"? This is your excuse?

"Some religious folks didn't respect my beliefs so now I refuse to respect ANYONE'S religious beliefs while still demanding that people respect my atheism."

Don't be a damn hypocrite. Respect other peoples religious beliefs so long as they don't throw them in your face and demand that they do the same about your atheism. And when they don't, call them cocksuckers.

But don't take the actions of a bunch of cocksuckers as a carte-blanche to be a hypocritical asshole.

[IheartTesla]

[quote name='ljkeane' post='1756003' date='Apr 15 2009, 13.28']So although I don't think this gives them the right to impose their beliefs on others I do have more sympathy for religious people who spend time trying to convert non believers to their faith than I do for atheists who try convince those with religious faith that there is no God.[/quote]

I am of the totally opposite opinion in that I have more respect for people trying to educate others about rationality than those who are recruiting for the forces of mysticism. They are sincerely believing that a life free of superstition is better worth living. See how that works? Everyone has their own motivation for doing what they do.

[ljkeane]

[quote name='cyrano' post='1756016' date='Apr 15 2009, 18.34']I am of the totally opposite opinion in that I have more respect for people trying to educate others about rationality than those who are recruiting for the forces of mysticism. They are sincerely believing that a life free of superstition is better worth living. See how that works? Everyone has their own motivation for doing what they do.[/quote]

Sure everyone has their motivations for doing what they do and I don't really care what anyone believes about religion, but if you are religious presumably you feel if someone does not follow your religion there will be unpleasant consequences for them whereas if you are an atheist so long as the religious person is not doing anything harmful to themselves or others in the pursuit of their religion surely what they believe is irrelevant.

[Jed o' Tarth]

[quote name='ljkeane' post='1756025' date='Apr 15 2009, 12.41']Sure everyone has their motivations for doing what they do and I don't really care what anyone believes about religion, but if you are religious presumably you feel if someone does not follow your religion there will be unpleasant consequences for them whereas if you are an atheist so long as the religious person is not doing anything harmful to themselves or others in the pursuit of their religion surely what they believe is irrelevant.[/quote]

No, it's not irrelevant.

theists are trying to convert others to their ideals to 'save them from hell', assure their place in the 'afterlife', and gain members for more tithe (money).

atheists are trying to help people see that putting so much of their time and money on fairytales is a waste.


both are, in their point of views, trying to help other people through 'conversion'. one is no different the other and both deserve the respect that is due the other.

[TerraPrime]

Re: ljkeane

[quote]To be honest I do think religious belief is more important for those who follow a religion than the absence of belief is for atheists, if a religious person attempts to convert someone to their faith they sincerely believe they are saving that person from hell or whatever it is their faith says. So although I don't think this gives them the right to impose their beliefs on others I do have more sympathy for religious people who spend time trying to convert non believers to their faith than I do for atheists who try convince those with religious faith that there is no God.[/quote]

But why is faith more important to theists than non-faith is to atheists? You still haven't really explained it. The religious people believe they are saving the souls of the non-believers, true, but the atheists who actively try to convert theists tend to think that they're saving the believers from superstitions and misplaced trust. We don't know what afterlife is, but we do have ample evidence of religious groups fleecing their followers for money and/or following questionable rules. We have evidence of some religions causing harm to their followers, physically or emotionally. So why, again, is the theists' effort to convert non-believers more worthy of sympathy and understanding than atheists' attempt to deconvert believers?



Re: Shryke

[quote name='Shryke' post='1756011' date='Apr 15 2009, 12.32']I think most non-idiots would say you can and should. But, as you said above:


So, again, "Do onto others as some asshole did onto me"? This is your excuse?

"Some religious folks didn't respect my beliefs so now I refuse to respect ANYONE'S religious beliefs while still demanding that people respect my atheism."

Don't be a damn hypocrite. Respect other peoples religious beliefs so long as they don't throw them in your face and demand that they do the same about your atheism. And when they don't, call them cocksuckers.

But don't take the actions of a bunch of cocksuckers as a carte-blanche to be a hypocritical asshole.[/quote]


What? How am I suggesting being a hypocritical asshole in this thread? I actually haven't said thing 1 about Pebble's situation. I just asked ljkeane to explain and justify some of the statements he/she made. Did you have me confused with someone else?

Also, I'll note that I was the lone voice in defending unpopular religious practices, like refusing blood transfusions for children. I even argued in some context, I can even support the choice of some religious groups to kill their children. I'm not sure I can be more supportive of religious people's choice to practice their religion than that? :unsure:

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754756' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.02']You've already missed the opportunity to do what me and the wife had to do - which is lie through our teeth.

We're both of the same non-belief/belief as you are and we don't attend church. However, both of our mothers were dead set on having our daughter baptized. We discussed the matter pretty thoroughly and even though we don't believe in it - we felt that both grandmothers deserved some guy in a weird outfit sprinkling water on the kid's head - if it makes them happy.

That's when the problems came in. For starters, we're not members of any church. And neither of the grandmothers' churches would perform a baptism unless we joined. That's where we drew the line. We're not joining a church for this. We didn't think it was right.

So finally a family friend and preacher agreed to do it, provided that we promise to join a church and obey his rules of "raising a child in God's love" or somesuch. So we just said, "sure, of course." We still don't have any intention of joining a church or reading the Bible to the kid everyday. We have no problem with grandparents taking her to sunday school - as long as she doesn't mind going. At her age, all they do is color pictures of Jesus anyway. And the kid likes to color.

Still, the whole thing was a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, my whole life I've had Christians trying to convince me to believe in God, join their church, not kill unborn babies - but the one time I give an inch - they want nothing to do with blessing my kid. Ridiculous.

Many times throughout this process I swore this is the last time I'm getting dragged into any more religious shenanigans from our family.[/quote]


I really find that odd. Where I come from, every preacher, priest, pastor, etc would be begging to baptize your child and they would not require your participation in the church. It's their goal to save the child and if that means saving the child without saving you then so be it.