Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[Kimbono]

Could the dragon be Cannibal (or its offspring) from Princess and the Queen?

If it is a new born dragon then it is probaply an offspring from Vermax as A World of Ice and Fire says:

We can dismiss Mushroom's claim in his Testimony that the dragon Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell's crypts, where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons.

(To note is that Mushroom knows more then the Maesters want to believe, wich means this is most likely ture)

But i like the Idea of hibernation more, Winterfell being the place where "winter fell" meaning the long night ended in a fight where most likely dragons were conflicted. And as the WW started a sort of Hibernation the dragon did aswell.

And by fireing the place up the hibernation ended.

[edd tollett:(]

I think the biggest point against the claim that Summer is just seeing THINGS and misinterpreting them is that Summer has neat little wolf-names for man-things. She smells "hardskin" and "man-claws" The animal has a system of naming things and it's quite accurate.

Why does everyone suddenly discount the otherwise highly praised senses of the Wolf in this one scene? Everywhere else the wolf smells sees and hears better than any human. But because she sees a "winged snake whose roar was flame" she's suddenly a dumb animal who can't accurately describe smoke and fire? Pish-posh. She saw something new and gave it a very accurate description...

Summer named many things in her POV. She used an obvious description of a dragon that is used by cultures over and over and over to describe flying reptiles/dragons/fire-breathers: A winged snake.

Summer obviously saw a Dragon. Summer also knew to be afraid of it as she bared her teeth.

It's just the dumb human in the story and humans reading the words who looked past it and called it something else. Summer told us what it was

Haha, well said

[edd tollett:(]

If it is a new born dragon then it is probaply an offspring from Vermax as A World of Ice and Fire says:

(To note is that Mushroom knows more then the Maesters want to believe, wich means this is most likely ture)

But i like the Idea of hibernation more, Winterfell being the place where "winter fell" meaning the long night ended in a fight where most likely dragons were conflicted. And as the WW started a sort of Hibernation the dragon did aswell.

And by fireing the place up the hibernation ended.

Thanks for posting that except and I agree about Mushroom. Idk if he's ever been wrong

[pdderek]

You know on my last couple of rereads it occurs to me how inconsistent GRRM is with these 'wolf dreams' half the time there thoughts are clear as day then next dream it's all vague with Hardskin snake breathing fire stuff. :tantrum:

is hardskin that incomprehensible to you? Summer's chapter is AS STRAIGHT FORWARD as every other wolf chapter. Humans are once again complicating things.

There is nothing vague whatsoever in this chapter. Unless you of course believe Summer's POV to be untrustworthy in which case...why are you here? ;)

[pdderek]

COME ON GUYS! ICE DRAGONS ARE COMING AND YOU KNOW IT!

Help me figure this out... :bang:

[TheOne-EyedHound]

Isn't it said by a fellow named Mushroom in AWOIAF, that Queen Alysanne's Dragon made a lair in the Winterfell crypts? Also theirs mention of Dragon eggs somewhere along those passages.

Might be the Winterfell Crypts go deeper than we know?

[ser oaklandish]

First post! Re-reading the series after becoming completely addicted. Also read the short stories, children's book, World book, etc. Recently noticed Bran's wolf dream dragon reference at the end of book 2.

Some points in support of the dragon of Winterfell being real, released by the sack of Winterfell by Greyjoys and Boltons:

1. Blood magic. I didn't read all 23 pages of responses, but folks seemed to raise this objection a lot. Here's the answer, though: Theon's two children were sacrificed, and these two kids have king/s blood. For those who haven't read the massive essay "winterfell huis clos" (no exit), here's the short story: when Theon and Reek/Ramsay killed the two children as a substitute for Bran and Rickon, little did they know these were Theon's bastard children. (Theon admits to sex with their mother.) Theon is later called "kinslayer" by the hooded man in book 5, a reference to him killing those two boys. Because at the time of the killing, Theon was Prince of the Iron Islands, and his dad Balon Greyjob king, these two kids have king's blood, and the associated magical properties.

2. The hot pools in the godswood start to freeze over, after the sack. Don't have the exact quote, but in book 5 there is reference to the hot springs not being hot enough to overcome the cold anymore. When I first read this, I thought it was just referring to how cold it was, coming of winter, etc., but now thinking about the (departed) dragon, this is another factor to consider. The dragon may have played a role in keeping the ground and springs hot.

3. To address the idea that "dragons are not native to Westeros": the Ice Dragon children's book, which occurs in the same universe, seems to refer to a time long ago when there were dragons in Westeros - both fire dragons and at least one ice dragon. This issue can also be solved if the dragon was hatched from an egg left in Winterfell during the Dance of Dragons, as referenced by Mushroom in the World book.

4. Regarding the size of the dragon: I agree with other posts that the dragon did not just hatch. More likely, was awoken from hibernation by blood magic, etc. What did it eat down there? Maybe it was symbiotic with weirwood tree, feeding off the dead? Or it ate the "rats the size of dogs" that Nan references. The reference in "World" to dragon's eggs also supports the idea of a dragon a hundred+ years old.

Whether or not this theory proves true, my main concern is how GRRM is going to get all these books finished! So many overlapping, intricate threads. Can't see how he finishes in less than 8 books. May the old gods and the new keep him healthy and focused!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It's not a dragon, while dragons can do many things, vanishing out of thin air is not one of them.

Plus based on all we know from Drogon's hunting patterns in Dany's last chapter of DwD, there is no way a dragon could stay hidden (even in the north) like that so close to WF.

Also Martin specifically told us in GOT when Dany's dragons were born that "for the first time in hundreds of years the night came alive with the sound of dragons."

Which means they are the only 3 dragons alive at that point.

[Masha]

It's not a dragon, while dragons can do many things, vanishing out of thin air is not one of them.

Plus based on all we know from Drogon's hunting patterns in Dany's last chapter of DwD, there is no way a dragon could stay hidden (even in the north) like that so close to WF.

Also Martin specifically told us in GOT when Dany's dragons were born that "for the first time in hundreds of years the night came alive with the sound of dragons."

Which means they are the only 3 dragons alive at that point.

First of all in GOT it was a Dany's chapter - her POV. As we saw in AFFC in Cersei's POV they are highly subjective to that character's knowledge. Thus, that GOT was from Dany's POV and we would be wise to add "as far as Dany knew" to that quote.

Secondly, North is HUGE. At that time WF is abandoned, it took a long while - a good several days/weeks or so for people to trickle in. That's why Bran and Co were able to get away undetected except by that mute Iron Born kid.

Plenty of time for a Dragon to get lost in the forests of the North and /or perhaps make his way beyond the Wall, were we literally have only 2 POVs - that skinchanger from ADWD prologue and Bran.

Thirdly, dragon might have gone of sight of Summer before the smoke dissipated. So, he "vanished" from the view of Summer.

However, I am not into the idea of there being a real dragon in WF either, my reasons are:

IF its a Dragon hatched from eggs left by either Good Queen Alysanne's dragon or during time of the Dance of Dragons, he can't be "huge" because it takes years for Dragon just become big enough to carry a slight girl like Dany. Unless it was a distorted shadow/reflection of tiny hatchling. Either way, that hatchling would be utterly useless till after the end of the books and definitely not a match for Dany's dragons - 1-2yrs older than it.

If it was really a giant dragon - it was some kind of hibernation and if so, how come nobody noticed it. It would have been there for hundreds of years in the hot springs. It boggles my mind that nobody would notice it during that many years - especially builders and masons who had to continuously build and update the castle walls with hot water piping from the springs to warm the walls of the keep. Unless that place was taboo.

[WildBlood]

First of all in GOT it was a Dany's chapter - her POV. As we saw in AFFC in Cersei's POV they are highly subjective to that character's knowledge. Thus, that GOT was from Dany's POV and we would be wise to add "as far as Dany knew" to that quote.

Secondly, North is HUGE. At that time WF is abandoned, it took a long while - a good several days/weeks or so for people to trickle in. That's why Bran and Co were able to get away undetected except by that mute Iron Born kid.

Plenty of time for a Dragon to get lost in the forests of the North and /or perhaps make his way beyond the Wall, were we literally have only 2 POVs - that skinchanger from ADWD prologue and Bran.

Thirdly, dragon might have gone of sight of Summer before the smoke dissipated. So, he "vanished" from the view of Summer.

However, I am not into the idea of there being a real dragon in WF either, my reasons are:

IF its a Dragon hatched from eggs left by either Good Queen Alysanne's dragon or during time of the Dance of Dragons, he can't be "huge" because it takes years for Dragon just become big enough to carry a slight girl like Dany. Unless it was a distorted shadow/reflection of tiny hatchling. Either way, that hatchling would be utterly useless till after the end of the books and definitely not a match for Dany's dragons - 1-2yrs older than it.

If it was really a giant dragon - it was some kind of hibernation and if so, how come nobody noticed it. It would have been there for hundreds of years in the hot springs. It boggles my mind that nobody would notice it during that many years - especially builders and masons who had to continuously build and update the castle walls with hot water piping from the springs to warm the walls of the keep. Unless that place was taboo.

:agree: There is no reason to NOT trust Summers point of view. Until the end of the series comes around and no dragons appear again in the north, we can't say for sure.

[Archmaester Drew]

First post! Re-reading the series after becoming completely addicted. Also read the short stories, children's book, World book, etc. Recently noticed Bran's wolf dream dragon reference at the end of book 2.

Some points in support of the dragon of Winterfell being real, released by the sack of Winterfell by Greyjoys and Boltons:

1. Blood magic. I didn't read all 23 pages of responses, but folks seemed to raise this objection a lot. Here's the answer, though: Theon's two children were sacrificed, and these two kids have king/s blood. For those who haven't read the massive essay "winterfell huis clos" (no exit), here's the short story: when Theon and Reek/Ramsay killed the two children as a substitute for Bran and Rickon, little did they know these were Theon's bastard children. (Theon admits to sex with their mother.) Theon is later called "kinslayer" by the hooded man in book 5, a reference to him killing those two boys. Because at the time of the killing, Theon was Prince of the Iron Islands, and his dad Balon Greyjob king, these two kids have king's blood, and the associated magical properties.

2. The hot pools in the godswood start to freeze over, after the sack. Don't have the exact quote, but in book 5 there is reference to the hot springs not being hot enough to overcome the cold anymore. When I first read this, I thought it was just referring to how cold it was, coming of winter, etc., but now thinking about the (departed) dragon, this is another factor to consider. The dragon may have played a role in keeping the ground and springs hot.

3. To address the idea that "dragons are not native to Westeros": the Ice Dragon children's book, which occurs in the same universe, seems to refer to a time long ago when there were dragons in Westeros - both fire dragons and at least one ice dragon. This issue can also be solved if the dragon was hatched from an egg left in Winterfell during the Dance of Dragons, as referenced by Mushroom in the World book.

4. Regarding the size of the dragon: I agree with other posts that the dragon did not just hatch. More likely, was awoken from hibernation by blood magic, etc. What did it eat down there? Maybe it was symbiotic with weirwood tree, feeding off the dead? Or it ate the "rats the size of dogs" that Nan references. The reference in "World" to dragon's eggs also supports the idea of a dragon a hundred+ years old.

Whether or not this theory proves true, my main concern is how GRRM is going to get all these books finished! So many overlapping, intricate threads. Can't see how he finishes in less than 8 books. May the old gods and the new keep him healthy and focused!

Welcome to the forum! :cheers:

Great points! I concur! :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

First of all in GOT it was a Dany's chapter - her POV. As we saw in AFFC in Cersei's POV they are highly subjective to that character's knowledge. Thus, that GOT was from Dany's POV and we would be wise to add "as far as Dany knew" to that quote.

Secondly, North is HUGE. At that time WF is abandoned, it took a long while - a good several days/weeks or so for people to trickle in. That's why Bran and Co were able to get away undetected except by that mute Iron Born kid.

Plenty of time for a Dragon to get lost in the forests of the North and /or perhaps make his way beyond the Wall, were we literally have only 2 POVs - that skinchanger from ADWD prologue and Bran.

Thirdly, dragon might have gone of sight of Summer before the smoke dissipated. So, he "vanished" from the view of Summer.

1. it seemed more like an obviously omniscient POV than from Dany herself. Same thing happens at the end of the Vic chapter when he gets his fire hand. I do not think it would be wise to add 'as far as Dany knew' to that statement, sometimes things are as they seem and are not the author lying to us or intentionally misleading us. (especially in this type of situation where there is zero reason to mislead us) And I know Martin is a brilliant writer, and I seriously doubt he would be dumb enough to have the supreme climax of GOT be seen as a falsehood later on by saying that other dragons were just chilling around the whole time.

2. yes the north is huge, but as I said, based on the info we read on Drogon's hunting patterns in DwD, and his very very long journey away from Meereen to Sohorys where Tyrion saw him on board the Shy Maid(at least 300 miles away from Meereen), it is very clear that a dragon can not stay hidden long, unless it was in hibernation, but this supposed dragon we are discussing was in no way hibernating. Nor have there been any hints in Martin's writing that dragons in this universe hibernate at all (unlike Tolkien), that is total fanfic. All we know about them is that they hunt and eat every single day.

3. I think the quote goes "He bared his teeth and it was gone". Nothing in the universe, save the speed of light, could fly away in the the time it takes a wolf to 'bare his teeth' (less than 1/2 a second). So like I said, unless this is a dragon with the power of invisibility, there is no way it was real.

[Archmaester Drew]

I think the biggest point against the claim that Summer is just seeing THINGS and misinterpreting them is that Summer has neat little wolf-names for man-things. She smells "hardskin" and "man-claws" The animal has a system of naming things and it's quite accurate.

Why does everyone suddenly discount the otherwise highly praised senses of the Wolf in this one scene? Everywhere else the wolf smells sees and hears better than any human. But because she sees a "winged snake whose roar was flame" she's suddenly a dumb animal who can't accurately describe smoke and fire? Pish-posh. She saw something new and gave it a very accurate description...

Summer named many things in her POV. She used an obvious description of a dragon that is used by cultures over and over and over to describe flying reptiles/dragons/fire-breathers: A winged snake.

Summer obviously saw a Dragon. Summer also knew to be afraid of it as she bared her teeth.

It's just the dumb human in the story and humans reading the words who looked past it and called it something else. Summer told us what it was

:agree: Exactly -- except I think Summer is male. As I recall each sibling had a wolf of the same sex. :)

[Sensenmenn]

Woodbyrne,

This.

To say nothing of the fact that the Dragons kept by the Targaryens in the Dragonpit, shriveled up and then died. Dragons don't do well when contained. A Dragon surviving chained up and hidden under Winterfell for years would directly contradict this earlier information. I suppose some guardian could have been feeding the beast explaining why it didn't starve to death but that would beg the question of why Ned didn't bring the thing out to fight when necessary. Good lord at the slightest hint of opportunity the Northern lords crowned Robb Stark king in the North. With a dragon that independence would have been easy to establish and maintain.

There is, and has been no, actual dragon under Winterfell.

With regard to the fallen Tower being toppelled by the Alleged Dragon. Is it more believable that the Dragon has sat unused and chained up for centuries beneth Winterfell or that a structure, partly made of wood, caught fire and partially collapsed due to that fire?

There was defanintly no chaind up dragon under winterfell but there could have been a massive anchent dragon from befor the long night. That dragon could have fallen where winterfell is to day and succumbed to grey scale. Terning to stone but instead of killing it the grey scale preserved it till it was finally released.

[Archmaester Drew]

There was defanintly no chaind up dragon under winterfell but there could have been a massive anchent dragon from befor the long night. That dragon could have fallen where winterfell is to day and succumbed to grey scale. Terning to stone but instead of killing it the grey scale preserved it till it was finally released.

Interesting! :cheers:

[jobmartell]

This thread started 6 years ago. And probably won't end for another 10.

[jobmartell]

This thread started 6 years ago. And probably won't end for another 10.

[weirwoodgroves]

First time posting anywhere, and I really should be working on my finals, and I don't have copies of the books with me, so my apologies if any of this is totally out there!

I believe I have seen other people theorize this before, but... the geothermal activity underneath Winterfell makes it highly likely that there is a vast amount of obsidian beneath the crypts. I know that I assumed that the "dragon" Summer sees in the smoke was the wolf searching for some kind of enemy to fight when all he can see is his (and Bran's) home being destroyed and going up in smoke.

But back to that cache of obsidian. Perhaps dragonglass can be used as some sort of bomb, letting off a firework in the shape of a dragon? We know that winter (in the form of the Long Night) was brought to its knees at WF, so it stands to reason that there must be some kind of ultimate weapon left over, be it actual dragons or enough dragonglass to forge a vast amount of new weapons. Perhaps there are dragon eggs preserved near a huge stash of dragonglass, and perhaps they are ice dragons, but honestly the idea of an actual dragon underneath Winterfell makes no sense. First of all, there would be legends about dragon flames warming the springs beneath the castle, and second of all, a dragon could not just disappear like smoke.

But we do know of something that CAN just disappear like smoke after doing significant amounts of damage, don't we?

It stands to reason that a red priest/ess could have produced a creepy smoke dragon baby at some point in the past, and that perhaps it was trapped beneath WF for some unknown reason. I'm obviously just throwing things out there, but we've already seen this exact form of blood magic performed before. I don't think it has anything to do with a real dragon, I think Summer saw a shadow dragon--MAYBE. Or maybe it's just figurative language.

[weirwoodgroves]

First time posting anywhere, and I really should be working on my finals, and I don't have copies of the books with me, so my apologies if any of this is totally out there!

I believe I have seen other people theorize this before, but... the geothermal activity underneath Winterfell makes it highly likely that there is a vast amount of obsidian beneath the crypts. I know that I assumed that the "dragon" Summer sees in the smoke was the wolf searching for some kind of enemy to fight when all he can see is his (and Bran's) home being destroyed and going up in smoke.

But back to that cache of obsidian. Perhaps dragonglass can be used as some sort of bomb, letting off a firework in the shape of a dragon? We know that winter (in the form of the Long Night) was brought to its knees at WF, so it stands to reason that there must be some kind of ultimate weapon left over, be it actual dragons or enough dragonglass to forge a vast amount of new weapons. Perhaps there are dragon eggs preserved near a huge stash of dragonglass, and perhaps they are ice dragons, but honestly the idea of an actual dragon underneath Winterfell makes no sense. First of all, there would be legends about dragon flames warming the springs beneath the castle, and second of all, a dragon could not just disappear like smoke.

But we do know of something that CAN just disappear like smoke after doing significant amounts of damage, don't we?

It stands to reason that a red priest/ess could have produced a creepy smoke dragon baby at some point in the past, and that perhaps it was trapped beneath WF for some unknown reason. I'm obviously just throwing things out there, but we've already seen this exact form of blood magic performed before. I don't think it has anything to do with a real dragon, I think Summer saw a shadow dragon--MAYBE. Or maybe it's just figurative language.

[pdderek]

First time posting anywhere, and I really should be working on my finals, and I don't have copies of the books with me, so my apologies if any of this is totally out there!

I believe I have seen other people theorize this before, but... the geothermal activity underneath Winterfell makes it highly likely that there is a vast amount of obsidian beneath the crypts. I know that I assumed that the "dragon" Summer sees in the smoke was the wolf searching for some kind of enemy to fight when all he can see is his (and Bran's) home being destroyed and going up in smoke.

But back to that cache of obsidian. Perhaps dragonglass can be used as some sort of bomb, letting off a firework in the shape of a dragon? We know that winter (in the form of the Long Night) was brought to its knees at WF, so it stands to reason that there must be some kind of ultimate weapon left over, be it actual dragons or enough dragonglass to forge a vast amount of new weapons. Perhaps there are dragon eggs preserved near a huge stash of dragonglass, and perhaps they are ice dragons, but honestly the idea of an actual dragon underneath Winterfell makes no sense. First of all, there would be legends about dragon flames warming the springs beneath the castle, and second of all, a dragon could not just disappear like smoke.

But we do know of something that CAN just disappear like smoke after doing significant amounts of damage, don't we?

It stands to reason that a red priest/ess could have produced a creepy smoke dragon baby at some point in the past, and that perhaps it was trapped beneath WF for some unknown reason. I'm obviously just throwing things out there, but we've already seen this exact form of blood magic performed before. I don't think it has anything to do with a real dragon, I think Summer saw a shadow dragon--MAYBE. Or maybe it's just figurative language.

Ice Dragons are confirmed to exist in ASOIAF. Dragons do as well. Shadow Dragons you made up. Why would you believe a made up creature with no mention existing was seen over one of two confirmed existing creatures within the realm having been seen?

As to Summer "looking for an enemy" Summer wants to LEAVE. It is Bran "pulling" Summer to the 'blind place' (The Crypts) Summer even goes as far as to mentally resist Bran saying "The dark place was pulling at him by then, the house of whispers where all men were blind. He could feel its cold fingers on him. The stony smell of it was a whisper up the nose. He struggled against the pull. He did not like the darkness. He was wolf. He was hunter and stalker and slayer, and he belonged with his brothers and sisters in the deep woods, running free beneath a starry sky. He sat on his haunches, raised his head, and howled. I will not go, he cried. I am wolf, I will not go."

So no...Summer is not imagining an enemy to fight. The only reason Summer is present is Bran's pull on him!

Dragonglass bombs? Now I'm wondering why I responded at all. I'll just...ignore that.

As for legends about a Dragon beneath winterfell, well, you haven't read a The World of Ice and Fire yet, eh? When describing Winterfell it is mentioned that

a) it is built on top of volcanoes. The Maester goes as far as to remind us they are "the same fires that made the Fourteen Flames (of Valyria)" so he's connecting Valyria to Winterfell

b) The Maester then in the same paragraph, next sentence, says: "the smallfolk have been known to claim the springs are heated by the breath of a dragon that sleeps beneath Winterfell"

The dragon did not "disappear like smoke" The dragon was glimpsed through the smoke and then was gone again. It was a smokey night. Dragons can fly quickly. It's not that far fetched that a Black Dragon against black smoke against a black sky would be hard to see.

Summer is a Wolf, not a poet.

Twas not figurative language.Twas not a shadow baby of Asshai. If it looks like a dragon, it flies like a dragon, and breathes fire from it's goddamn mouth, it is probably a dragon.

Why do you doubt Summer?