EHK for MMA

[ljkeane]

There's no way his hand speed was 50% faster than the average Olympic gald medalist, he was a good fighter on his feet but I don't think he had particularly fast hands by the standards of top level boxing.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I'll agree with Horus that Silva has generally gotten a bad wrap. I mean, two fights in a row he doesn't just wrecking ball somebody and we have people right in this thread stating they never want to see a fight of his again. I always cringed at the ignorance of the American fans booing Silva all over the place and I wasn't happy to hear him being booed in Canada. But that was a horribly anti climatic main event, no way around that one. I didn't even know there was a 'greasegate II' incident, but I never noticed it with GSP until days latter when everyone was talking about it either.

Maybe Silva didn't shift it into overdrive and take many risks to finish his opponent, but I hardly think he should suddenly fall off of everybody's pound for pound best rankings. I am getting increasingly excited at the prospect of a Silva/GSP superfight (and if it actually is in Toronto, just an hour and a half down the road from me, that'd be too good to be true) but I am not suddenly rock certain GSP is going the murder Silva like many hyper critical internet warriors out there seem to be all. I think GSP will put in the time to gain the size to step up a class and not get bj penned, but I dread any of the pound for pounders going after their larger counterparts. When top level skills even out, size and strength advantages become overwhelming. I'd feel the same sort of concerns for Anderson if he tried to take on Fedor.

Lotvi Sariamed had it right today on Sherdog Radio. The criticism that Silva is getting is disproportionate for whatever reason. Now to finalize things on the Silva thingy, here's another article that echoes my sentiments on why I think that MMA fans in general hate Silva and always have. He made one point that I really liked. Let's say that Silva jumps into Leites guard like alot of these guys are saying and gets caught by a submission. Everyone would be on today ripping Silva for being so cocky and arrogant and getting into a BJJ match with Leites. He loses either way.

Jordan Breen brought up in his recent article how Silva has never been a big PPV draw. Now this didn't start after the RJJ thing or the Cote fight, people never turned out to see him fight and never warmed to him. I would be able to block it off as a Sherdog thing, if the numbers weren't right there in black and white. So like I said, if Anderson is indifferent to the feelings of an MMA fanbase that has literally gone off the deep end with this thing, I say more power to him. He'd done all he could to get people to like him and they turn on him just like that. Ridiculous. Now people loved how Forrest Griffin used to engage in wars and slug it out but there came a point in time when he realized that he couldn't win that way so he dialed it back and fought more technically. His first fight after the Jardine loss was pretty sedentary. Not a peep. And before anyone says that Griffin earned some slack, so has Anderson. The difference is that people don't like him. They've been waiting for a reason to rip him and now they're coming out of the woodwork. Thank God he lives in Brazil and doesn't have to deal with this crap. If I'm him I keep speaking to Tatame and noone else until people get some sense. If MMA fans can't start to realize that this isn't wrestling where everything is always gonna look the same then they should go back to watching entertainment where the action is guaranteed. I am still thoroughly pissed off at how overblown this whole thing is getting. Even RJJ never had to deal with this much in a single week.

It brings out a reaction in me that I don't like since the default by alot of these guys has been to pull for GSP to "teach him a lesson". I like GSP, he's one of my five or six favorite fighters. But this internet mayhem is causing me not to like him, for no reason of his making. Bisping actually deserves my ire after he opened up his fat suck to diss Silva when he has done nothing, NOTHING, even close to covering Silva's resume. Especially after I stuck up for him after the Hamill debacle. I am now fully pulling for him to defeat Hendo so that he can meet Silva and talk so tough to his face. It needs to happen soon, very soon, bc if Silva needed any motivation to beat a man worse than he beat Leben, here it is. I have just become a "JUST BLEED" MMA fan, but only when it comes to Michael Bisping. I hope that he JUST DIES!

jk

Turns out I have MTV after all. I just watched an episode of Bully Beatdown. Pretty corny, but I'll watch it.

I've always been a big fan of Mayhem, but he's been really cool on this show. He pulls off what Junie Browning wants to be like without being a total dick. Always been a fan of his. Hope he fights again soon in Dream or Strikeforce.

On Chuck's handspeed, if they were comparing him to some of the Olympic boxers that I saw in the last Olympics,... let's just say that that had to be the worst crop of Olympic boxers that I've ever seen and I've been watching a long time. Now they did a similar scientific study on Rampage and said that he hits harder than almost any pro in the game today. Pretty sure that it all comes down to technique and polish in the end. Hitting a bag and trying to hit another person are two different things completely.

[Ser Barry]

Horus if you are going to go all Sherdog on us then at least quote the poll they ran on their front page on this very issue.

Q. Who do you blame for the Main Event of UFC97 being so boring?

42% Both

41% Leites

17% Silva

From around 20000 votes last time I checked. The stats do not add up to your argument.

Also Griffin got a mauling for his display against Sick Dog or whatever that fella's name was. The point is that Griffin got on his bike for that fight and it was a misstep in his evolution as a fighter. Are you seriously calling Silva's display as something similar? Griffin didn't know how to put his technical superiority to good effect, Silva refused to do so. There is a difference.

Anyway, why do you think that is this agenda against Anderson? What would be the motivation behind hating him?*

*A hate which does not exist btw.

[Horus Ex Machina]

On an off-topic that gets a bit personal and medical but actually does have to do with MMA, I just got my Staph infection lanced and cultured tonight. Too late to hit the pharmacy for the Hydrocordone, so I'm sitting on the pain. I went back to my gym for the first time in months and after one training session I get Staph. I sent a little innoculous message to my coach that I'd gotten Staph and wouldn't be training this week after my even longer layoff earlier, but it was actually a little nudge nudge hint hint aside telling him to clean his freakin mats. I'll even stick around after to help if that's what it takes bc if this becomes a commonplace occurence, I may have to start lookin for a new fight team. I even had to leave work early and use sick time. I'll probably feel better tommorrow once I'm able to fill my prescription. But in lieu of that, tonight I bought beer for the first time in months.

Anyways back to the story...

Anyway, why do you think that is this agenda against Anderson? What would be the motivation behind hating him?*

*A hate which does not exist btw.

I think that it's because he's a foriegner who doesn't speak English. I think that bc of that people tend to assume, and sometimes rightfully so, that they can't be certain what type of person he is bc they can't be sure what it is he's really saying to us. He can be misquoted at times as well. Also he's a former Pride fighter who only fought there 4 or 5 times and was never really accepted by the "Pride 'huggers". But bc of that background, he's also not totally accepted by the "UFC 'huggers". He's what in basketball we call a 'tweener. Caught between both worlds, both strident fanbases that already have their favorites, but he really isn't seen as truly belonging to either. Pride guys like to say that Ryo Chonan "dominated" him and that he was a "Pride washout". UFC guys always wanted one of the UFC stalwarts to knock him off and prove him to be as much of a failure as Cro Cop was. That's another aspect that I've noticed. Pride guys love Wandy and UFC guys love Chuck. Few people cared one way or the other about Silva.

Also there's a percieved cockyness about him that really can't be offset by anything Silva says bc, once again, the public can never feel like they trust anything that's interpreted. This is partly true since Ed Soares did and does tend to sugarcoat some of his more hardline statements as happened this weekend. But overall Anderson is very respectful of his fellow fighters and he went so far as to clarify his earlier Wandy statements. He pointed out that he was in Wandy's locker room with Lyoto to congratulate him after the Jardine victory. They are former teammates after all.

Now we have had this conversation before about a year or so ago. We debated whether or not he'd get booed. What other fighters who, to that date, had zero personal negatives do you ever wonder that about? Ok i think that may have been before the Franklin fight in Cinci, so that's really a throw-away point, regardless we did have a bit of a discussion on what Silva had to do to get fans to warm up to him. I tend to use the phrase "hating-on" and I realize that that may be thrown about alot as a reference today and overused a bit. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that MMA fans in general have never been huge fans of Silva. That cannot be disputed. PPV sales tell this out. Apart from what people have said, I think that that apathy (rather than hate) allowed this backlash to grow out of proportion than it would have to a more beloved figure. The difference between Silva and Griffin or even GSP is that the MMA public watches the latter two to see them win. They only watch Silva to see him destroy people. Griffin or GSP might get a day or so of backlash but in the end they're just happy to see them win. But they really don't seem to care if Silva wins or not. Look at the Fedor-Arlovsky fight. Fedor looked bad for much of the time that it lasted, but Fedor's real fans only care about the W. It's not like Fedor won with an aggresive move. That was a defensive punch. He was outfought, but he won. That's what Fedor's fans dwell on. But they won't internalize or take a Silva loss to heart. They won't thank him for the eight straight bouts of domination that he put on when he eventually leaves the UFC. They will never give him a standing ovation. They only watch him for the spectacle, and when it doesn't come they're indifferent to him. So I'll take away "hate" but reiterate, that the fans do not root for this guy, they don't watch him to see him win, just to see if he can bloody his opponent. Two off-fights would not have ruined the legacy of GSP or BJ Penn, but they've supposedly destroyed his if you read some writers on websites like Yahoo! Sports among others. The majority of the MMA public may not have hated him, but they were definitely not fans of his.

Perhaps his perfection since joining the UFC was his own demon, perhaps a man who appears inhuman needs no coaxing or cheers. Perhaps it's hard to warm to a man who seems unbeatable. Perhaps it's more interesting to see who can beat him then to want him to continue his streak. But as a fan of his, I feel obligated to stick up for him and point it out when the backlash becomes excessive, and yes it has. Hell there were more people rushing to Quentin Jackson's defense when he hit a pregnant woman with his SUV. He is my favorite fighter by a long shot. And I watch how other fighters have thier fans who "live and die" by whether their guy wins or loses. That's how I feel about a Silva fight. Shogun, Rampage, Nick, GSP, BJ, Thiago and Machida (and pretty much anyone who can humiliate Matt Hughes) come close, but the way I see it, they have thier fans. But being a Silva fan, a true die-hard, feels a bit like belonging to an exclusive club. And I have no problem with that at all, because I believe that he's the best we've seen to date and I've never been desirous of conformity.

Alright and for the sake of civility, which we do have alot of on this thread, that will be my word on the whole Silva topic unless it comes up on it's own, but I won't bring it up again. Just so you understand where I'm coming from. Peace.

[benderschweiz]

On an off-topic that gets a bit personal and medical but actually does have to do with MMA, I just got my Staph infection lanced and cultured tonight. Too late to hit the pharmacy for the Hydrocordone, so I'm sitting on the pain. I went back to my gym for the first time in months and after one training session I get Staph. I sent a little innoculous message to my coach that I'd gotten Staph and wouldn't be training this week after my even longer layoff earlier, but it was actually a little nudge nudge hint hint aside telling him to clean his freakin mats. I'll even stick around after to help if that's what it takes bc if this becomes a commonplace occurence, I may have to start lookin for a new fight team. I even had to leave work early and use sick time. I'll probably feel better tommorrow once I'm able to fill my prescription. But in lieu of that, tonight I bought beer for the first time in months.

I'm in Cleveland and the Browns have been having problems with Staph for the past 6 years or so. They've had 7 or 8 Staph infections that must either be from their training facility or the Cleveland Clinic. They've had microbiologists trying to clean that place up for the last couple of years. Once it's there...it's probably going to be there for good.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I'm in Cleveland and the Browns have been having problems with Staph for the past 6 years or so. They've had 7 or 8 Staph infections that must either be from their training facility or the Cleveland Clinic. They've had microbiologists trying to clean that place up for the last couple of years. Once it's there...it's probably going to be there for good.

:sick: Just Great.

[Analu]

First of all, sorry to hear about the staph infection Horus. I've had it before and it sucks. I always shower as soon as I get home and use Defense soap.

Secondly, I think a lot of your posts in this thread are teetering pretty close to condescension and your anger is misplaced. I pretty much disagree with most of it, and think you need to stop typing "sherdog.net" into your URL. But since it seems you've said your piece, I'll just leave it at that.

[Liffguard]

On an off-topic that gets a bit personal and medical but actually does have to do with MMA, I just got my Staph infection lanced and cultured tonight. Too late to hit the pharmacy for the Hydrocordone, so I'm sitting on the pain. I went back to my gym for the first time in months and after one training session I get Staph. I sent a little innoculous message to my coach that I'd gotten Staph and wouldn't be training this week after my even longer layoff earlier, but it was actually a little nudge nudge hint hint aside telling him to clean his freakin mats. I'll even stick around after to help if that's what it takes bc if this becomes a commonplace occurence, I may have to start lookin for a new fight team. I even had to leave work early and use sick time. I'll probably feel better tommorrow once I'm able to fill my prescription. But in lieu of that, tonight I bought beer for the first time in months.

That sucks. One of the many reasons I love training at Carlson Gracie's is the effort that goes into hygiene. The mats are washed every night, there's an alocohol wash dispenser right by the mats, anyone who gets a fungal infection gets banned from the mats for two weeks and free lamisil during that period. Never been a case of staph as far as I can remember.

[Ken Stone]

Perhaps his perfection since joining the UFC was his own demon, perhaps a man who appears inhuman needs no coaxing or cheers. Perhaps it's hard to warm to a man who seems unbeatable. Perhaps it's more interesting to see who can beat him then to want him to continue his streak. But as a fan of his, I feel obligated to stick up for him and point it out when the backlash becomes excessive, and yes it has. Hell there were more people rushing to Quentin Jackson's defense when he hit a pregnant woman with his SUV. He is my favorite fighter by a long shot. And I watch how other fighters have thier fans who "live and die" by whether their guy wins or loses. That's how I feel about a Silva fight. Shogun, Rampage, Nick, GSP, BJ, Thiago and Machida (and pretty much anyone who can humiliate Matt Hughes) come close, but the way I see it, they have thier fans. But being a Silva fan, a true die-hard, feels a bit like belonging to an exclusive club. And I have no problem with that at all, because I believe that he's the best we've seen to date and I've never been desirous of conformity.

I consider myself a Silva fan also. I love what he has been able to do in the octagon. This harkens to an interesting question that was discussed on Beatdown. Is MMA primarily a sport, or primarily entertainment? I tend to view it as a sport first and foremost, as do most of the people here I believe. If you take that view the point of the fight is to win, period. A KO is as good as a split decision. The UFC, on the other hand, seems to lean more towards entertainment. You can lose every fight but if people enjoy watching you fight you will keep fighting. If you are "boring" one loss and you are gone. "Boring" fighters also have a longer and steeper path to championships, which wouldn't be the case if it was purely sport.

The people who view MMA as sport have no problems with fighters like Machida and Silva. The problem is the people who view MMA as entertainment.

[Cuellar]

I have to agree with Ken. People who want to watch a spectacle, should hate Silva unless he annihilates someone. They love Junie Brown shit, and even GSP trash talk and antics. That's why they were pissed when GSP got his ass beat by Serra and never gave Serra any respect.

I'd have to say Silva is my favorite FIGHTER, followed by GSP. I don't really watch MMA for the highlight reel, and the technical aspect is what I find most interesting.

Most people watching UFC have no idea where Silva is coming from, and there are some good points regarding him not speaking english and such. One of the key things I heard from him during an interview was that he grew up fighting in towns/villages where he would get booed and had to fight local fighters. To him, bringing home the W is most important, being the most loved fighter or putting on a show come a distant second.

Also, you have to cut the guy some slack. He's approaching retirement, does he really want to get injured and drag out his UFC contract? Fighting conservatively means he gets to fight faster without the recovery time needed from a Griffon style victory.

[GSP]

If you guys missed that hand speed thing about Chuck on the first episode of the deadliest warrior, take another look. I didn't imagine it, I remember it pretty explicitly. They timed Chuck's hand speed and it was 1.4 metres per second or something like that while the average Olympic gold medalist boxer's was supposedly 0.9 metres per second. Yeah, I saw him punch up a side or meat with the Gladiator weapons as well, but that test was in there. The stuff I smoke is good, but it isn't that good.

Team U.K. on TUF drew first blood in a hell of a fight if you ask me. So far this season looks like we might get a lot in terms of fighter training and tactics and the stuff I'm interested in a lot less of the drunken stupidity and other camera hogging antics which is ideal.

[Ken Stone]

If you guys missed that hand speed thing about Chuck on the first episode of the deadliest warrior, take another look. I didn't imagine it, I remember it pretty explicitly. They timed Chuck's hand speed and it was 1.4 metres per second or something like that while the average Olympic gold medalist boxer's was supposedly 0.9 metres per second. Yeah, I saw him punch up a side or meat with the Gladiator weapons as well, but that test was in there. The stuff I smoke is good, but it isn't that good.

I'm not doubting that was said, because I don't remember specifically, but let's not forget how that show pretty much exaggerates everything.

*drops concrete block on human skull*

"HOLY CRAP THAT JUST OBLITERATED IT! WE'VE NEVER SEEN THAT KIND OF DAMAGE BEFORE! Clearly the modern bricklayer is a dangerous opponent."

[Oorag]

Yeah, that was a very entertaining, back-and-forth battle on TUF. I've got high hopes for this season. It looks like last season was rock bottom and everyone is taking steps not to go that route. I like how Bisping took steps to nip the whole pranking thing in the bud. However, my DVR cut off the next episode sneak peak, though, so for all I know they'll raze the house next week.

[Horus Ex Machina]

The stuff I smoke is good, but it isn't that good.

Don't sell yourself short, I was just about to buy some off of you.

That sucks. One of the many reasons I love training at Carlson Gracie's is the effort that goes into hygiene. The mats are washed every night, there's an alocohol wash dispenser right by the mats, anyone who gets a fungal infection gets banned from the mats for two weeks and free lamisil during that period. Never been a case of staph as far as I can remember.

Money can do great things!

I'm not doubting that was said, because I don't remember specifically, but let's not forget how that show pretty much exaggerates everything.

*drops concrete block on human skull*

I was just about to say the same thing. Plus I'll reiterate, being compared to the current crop of Olympic boxers isn't saying much. Besides which I'd like a clarification from them on their meaning. Do they mean to say that Chuck's punches are faster than any Olympic boxer on the planet or just an Olympic boxer that they know. Words can have many meanings unless there's clarification.

[EHK for Darwin]

I consider myself a Silva fan also. I love what he has been able to do in the octagon. This harkens to an interesting question that was discussed on Beatdown. Is MMA primarily a sport, or primarily entertainment? I tend to view it as a sport first and foremost, as do most of the people here I believe. If you take that view the point of the fight is to win, period. A KO is as good as a split decision. The UFC, on the other hand, seems to lean more towards entertainment. You can lose every fight but if people enjoy watching you fight you will keep fighting. If you are "boring" one loss and you are gone. "Boring" fighters also have a longer and steeper path to championships, which wouldn't be the case if it was purely sport.

The people who view MMA as sport have no problems with fighters like Machida and Silva. The problem is the people who view MMA as entertainment.

I wouldn't say that MMA is more entertainment than sport. But I will say that entertainment is MUCH more important in these sorts of individual combat sports than they are for most every other major sport. People watch football and baseball either to see football and baseball, to watch their favored team win, or both. It doesn't suddenly become any more or less 'must see TV' because of a hitter's stance or a pitcher's delivery style. The objective, comparative entertainment value between one team or another (disregarding one or the other being your favorite team), and really one player and another (a few exceptions in football, a few more in basketball) just isn't that great. They're (almost) all doing much the same thing. The sport is the sport pretty much. There are good games and bad, but you're gonna have so damned many games that you'll have ample opportunity for both.

Its MUCH different in combat sports. Watching a Pacquiao fight vs. a Valuev fight is night and day. Its hard to acknowledge that they're actually in the same sport. Winning is important, but the big money, big fights, and big opportunities are just as dependent upon you being an entertaining fighter as well. Gatti made a killing as a thoroughly mediocre fighter because he was damned entertaining to watch. And many more technical, defensive fighters struggle at the gate despite being damned good because they bore the shit out of people. No major sports franchise is gonna suffer all that much for being a boring team, but they absolutely will if they're a bad, losing team.

MMA does seem to have a fanbase much more dedicated to individual fighters (or several fighters), living and dying as you say by their wins and losses. But I'm sure there are a fair number that just want a good fight. Might have their favorites, might even cheer them on, but at the end of the day they're in it for a great, entertaining performance as much as anything. And if a fighter puts in a dull as fuck performance, whether he wins or not, there's gonna be a negative reaction and its not hard to understand.

Myself, I've got boxers I like, boxers I don't, but noone who I live and die by like I might with Notre Dame or the White Sox. I go in there for a good fight, no matter whose name is on the card. And if its a fighter with a boring style, known for lackluster fights, I'll avoid him. Or watch him and hate myself for doing so. Those who are generally exciting fighters, I'll go out of my way to catch those. I also will get pissy if a fighter has the capability of putting an opponent away, who can be much more exciting and devastating, yet chooses not to. Vlad is pretty much the definition of this. I understand that you gotta protect your chin like a schoolgirl's virginity on prom night, but god gave you a fucking right hand for a reason dipshit. I get that you can beat the chump in front of you with your jab alone via decision, but if you want me to pay for your next fight, you've gotta give me a fucking reason.

Anyway...ways off, but Vlad/Haye? Anyone paying or waiting for replay? (I apologize for bringing so much boxing into the MMA thread, its just a more natural frame of reference for me and it seemed applicable enough)

[Ser Barry]

Undecided on Vlad/Haye. Don't hold out much hope of Haye doing much. Well up for Hatton/Paqi though. Kimura.

[EHK for Darwin]

Undecided on Vlad/Haye. Don't hold out much hope of Haye doing much. Well up for Hatton/Paqi though. Kimura.

Can't wait for this one. Size might be an issue, but after the ODH bout, I'm not inclined to count out Pac in anything. Figuring a decision for Manny.

Haye folds shortly after Vlad realizes he has a right hand.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Anyway...ways off, but Vlad/Haye? Anyone paying or waiting for replay? (I apologize for bringing so much boxing into the MMA thread, its just a more natural frame of reference for me and it seemed applicable enough)

I see alot of hope, I guess in this fight. The best fighters in boxing are Cruiserweight and below so if Haye can possibly win here we could see a new renaissance in which lighter, more athletic, guys can showcase here. So I may buy it because I'm intrigued but I'd have to cancel Showtime to make it work. I don't know. But I will watch it either way.

I'm also interested in Froch vs. Taylor.

I wonder if we should co-opt the boxing thread into this one, bc it's alot of the same guys posting in both threads. Just thought that I'd throw that out there.

Pacquiao vs. Hattan is gonna be a war. Considering that Hattan had the goods to get Mayweather to actually fight, and Pac-Man will fight anyway, this is gonna be entertainment and sport. No other fight that I'm more pumped for, MMA or boxing.

BTW we got a pretty hot chick at our gym, I forgot to mention. She seems to like me.

[GSP]

Hope you can tap her Horus! ( I mean as in a submission, you perverts!)

"Don't sell yourself short, I was just about to buy some off of you." I don't deal, but if you ever find yourself North of the border I can always treat.

I haven't followed boxing in years and will have no clue what you are talking about for the most part if you bring it into the thread, but that being said, I don't mind. It is an integral part of MMA after all and I might just learn something.

"*drops concrete block on human skull*

"HOLY CRAP THAT JUST OBLITERATED IT! WE'VE NEVER SEEN THAT KIND OF DAMAGE BEFORE! Clearly the modern bricklayer is a dangerous opponent.""

LOL! Ken, that's about the best critical summary of that show I've heard yet!

[EHK for Darwin]

I wouldn't mind bringing the boxing discussion over here, it'd certainly ensure more hits and looks. But it does have the potential to be a distraction from the MMA discussion, so I think that decision is more properly left to you guys and the other MMA thread regulars.