EHK for MMA

[Analu]

I know Barnett has a fair grasp of Japanese, but I've never heard Fedor speak anything but Russian. Do those guys share a language?

Probably english and as lame as it sounds, the language of fighting.

Heard they became really friendly while both were at PRIDE and have done some training together.

[Ken Stone]

I know Barnett has a fair grasp of Japanese, but I've never heard Fedor speak anything but Russian. Do those guys share a language?

I've heard Fedor speaking English (not in person, in YouTube clips). He is pretty good, really. I suspect he uses a translator when dealing with the media just to be safe.

[EHK for Darwin]

I dunno. The discussion seemed kinda useless to me, as it was two years late, seemed to be primarily based on Internet rumors, and hasn't had much (if any) negative impact on the sport. But maybe it is a good thing to go over it a few years later and see if things look any different than how I remembered it.

Its pretty well known that every fight Takada won was a work. Many of Ogawa's fights are suspect. Guy Metzger claimed they asked him to take a fall. Quentin of course had his 'bonus to lose'. And in my reading up on the subject a week ago I found several other less confirmed 'rumored' works. I also saw enough clips to notice some ridiculously biased refing and the pro-Japanese judging is fairly well known. Questionable match-making. There is no regulation or athletic commission. The Japanese audience seems more tolerant of blatant works, ridiculous gimmick fights, and pro-wrestling crossovers. I actually just read a complaint from last year or the year of Fertitta suing the former Pride owners for breach of contract, in particular failure to submit to background checks and other matters. (Fertittas own a casino and are thus under heavy scrutiny on anything that has so much as a whiff of organized crime, so the Yakuza allegations had to be dealt with. I'm not sure if anything came of this complaint. Link is here: http://www.ultimate-fighter.ca/Forum/viewt....php?pid=163965 )

Pride lost its TV contract in Japan largely due to suspected Yakuza ties. At least two people involved in Pride have claimed Yakuza death threats. Japanese articles have claimed PRIDE was pretty much owned and run by Yakuza. The former head of Pride and current head of Dream Stage Entertainment is rumored to be a Yakuza frontman. (Sakakibara)

http://www.fightopinion.com/2006/03/13/kaw...-weekly-gendai/

http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/12/21/my-...nese-mma-scene/

Yeah its a blog and I have no idea if its credible, but it seems to translate from existing Japanese sources (no idea if they're credible), and there's more than enough of this shit to be found with a quick google.

Sure, much of it is still the realm of internet rumor. But that's often all you get with shady organizations unless some government body decides to break it open and investigate. But enough of the rumor seems fairly well confirmed and there's a SHIT-TON of rumors, leading the reasonable person to believe that there's something there. Accusations of fight fixing might be inevitable whether there are any or not (and even more inevitable when there are at least a few that are 99.9999% confirmed), but I've never known Yakuza allegations to be thrown around for no particular reason. Nor for TV contracts to be canceled due to internet rumor-mongering.

Yeah its a dead company and this story is 2+ years old at least. So what? Its new to me and I decided to bring it up. Noone's required to discuss it if they don't find the topic interesting.

As for its impact on the sport, there was so little mainstream public awareness of PRIDE when it was running that such things wouldn't much matter. Mainstream media wasn't covering it and was barely covering MMA/UFC either. And bloggers simply don't have the credibility to matter. Its lack of impact on the sport was more due to its relative obscurity than anything else.

[Analu]

Yeah, there's a lot of damning stuff there, and likely a lot of it is true. I don't dispute that PRIDE was a little shady. But every MMA promotion back then was a little shady. My problem is you dismissing it as a total joke, when it wasn't (at least to me). MMA now is very different than MMA even just a few years ago. And Japanese MMA, even more so. I just think you should try to understand it better before teeing off on it.

Yeah its a dead company and this story is 2+ years old at least. So what? Its new to me and I decided to bring it up. Noone's required to discuss it if they don't find the topic interesting.

Well, you pretty much assured a negative response when you jumped all over my post earlier in the thread and started slamming PRIDE as a joke. What, you expected a civil and polite response after that?

And despite your arguments to the contrary, IMO you absolutely need to have seen a PRIDE event, especially if you're going to go off on it the way you did. I wasn't dismissing it because I've watched more MMA than you. I was dismissing it because you admitted to never having watched a PRIDE event, and I'll say it again, IMO you really need to have watched at least some of it before bashing it.

As for its impact on the sport, there was so little mainstream public awareness of PRIDE when it was running that such things wouldn't much matter. Mainstream media wasn't covering it and was barely covering MMA/UFC either. And bloggers simply don't have the credibility to matter. Its lack of impact on the sport was more due to its relative obscurity than anything else.

Disagree. I've seen plenty of recent suspicious fights, that the mainstream media have completely whiffed on. Look at the Lashley fight last weekend. Major news outlets are reporting about how dominant Lashley looked and praising his ability, when to everyone in my gym, all my buddies and myself, it looked like his opponent took a dive. Anyone with even a few days grappling training, hell anyone with just common sense, knows to try to put pressure on the arm to lessen the severity of the choke, instead of just flopping his arms about like Cook did. And getting choked unconscious, waking back up while still in the guillotine, then passing out again? And with what looked like a one-armed guillotine, too.

My point is that while there's still a lot that's wrong with MMA, it seems unfair to me to limit your bashing to PRIDE. Yeah, it had its issues. But it was still a great organization to me, and did a lot for MMA around the world. And let's not forget, at one point last year, 3 of the 5 UFC champs were former PRIDE stars.

[EHK for Darwin]

Yeah, there's a lot of damning stuff there, and likely a lot of it is true. I don't dispute that PRIDE was a little shady. But every MMA promotion back then was a little shady. My problem is you dismissing it as a total joke, when it wasn't (at least to me). MMA now is very different than MMA even just a few years ago. And Japanese MMA, even more so. I just think you should try to understand it better before teeing off on it.

I don't think I used or implied the term 'total joke', but it is hard to take an organization seriously when its run that haphazardly and (sometimes) corruptly. Maybe I would have a different take if I'd watched a few years of it, but the impression I get now is that it was not run as a competent, professional sport. It may have had some strong talent and great fights, but so much of the shit comes off as bush league. Clearly the Japanese have different tastes and expectations, this product certainly wasn't made with an American audience in mind initially. But the things they were willing to swallow just didn't make it across the cultural divide for me.

Well, you pretty much assured a negative response when you jumped all over my post earlier in the thread and started slamming PRIDE as a joke. What, you expected a civil and polite response after that?

Consider us even than. I recall being jumped all over completely unnecessarily in a GC thread not too long ago. That incident had nothing to do with my response in this thread, but it did make me rather indifferent to whether my response here was too harsh or not.

Disagree. I've seen plenty of recent suspicious fights, that the mainstream media have completely whiffed on. Look at the Lashley fight last weekend. Major news outlets are reporting about how dominant Lashley looked and praising his ability, when to everyone in my gym, all my buddies and myself, it looked like his opponent took a dive. Anyone with even a few days grappling training, hell anyone with just common sense, knows to try to put pressure on the arm to lessen the severity of the choke, instead of just flopping his arms about like Cook did. And getting choked unconscious, waking back up while still in the guillotine, then passing out again? And with what looked like a one-armed guillotine, too.

Lashley got a paragraph at best from the few mainstream outlets that actually cover the sport. Its not whiffing if nobody cares. Yeah the fight looked fishy. If he ever fights some real competition in an organization people have heard of (MFC ain't exactly a household name) and has a similar performance, some people might raise a fuss. He's too irrelevant right now to matter.

My point is that while there's still a lot that's wrong with MMA, it seems unfair to me to limit your bashing to PRIDE. Yeah, it had its issues. But it was still a great organization to me, and did a lot for MMA around the world. And let's not forget, at one point last year, 3 of the 5 UFC champs were former PRIDE stars.

I don't simply limit my criticism to Pride. I've given Dana hell countless times for his childish, unprofessional behavior. I've compared his running of UFC to Vince McMahon, criticized him for placing brand too far above sport. Again, I have no real horse in this race. I'm not a UFC loyalist. I don't have a favorite fighter. I'm simply a general fan in the sport and if I get good, competitive fights with the top talent in the world, I don't much care which 3-5 letters are in front of it. I do start caring if those letters are rather poorly run and by their intentional (or negligent) actions call into question the integrity of the sport.

[benderschweiz]

Pride was from a different era of MMA with no athletic commission involvement. Back then the UFC did similar stuff. Joe Rogan tells a story on Undisputed about how Chuck Liddell was told he needed to fight standing or he wouldn't be brought back for another fight during his first UFC appearance.

I think at this point the integrity of the sport is more threatened by some of the judges the athletic commissions are assigning to these events. Seems like there is regularly at least one that has no clue about scoring MMA (30-27 Franklin in Franklin vs. Henderson?).

[Horus Ex Machina]

To understand Japanese MMA, and even the early years of the UFC, you have to understand how pro wrestling aspects work into the grand scheme of things, especially in Japan. The early UFC, being that it was primarily a showcase for Gracie jiu-jitsu, was a montage of works and mismatches which was supposed to end in a Gracie win. But alot of those fighters and matchmaking aspects were imported from the true first MMA shows in Japan like Rings and Shooto. The more gritty, real aspects came from Brazil since it was actually Vale Tudo (anything goes) there.

Shooto was started by a pro wrestler and meant to cater to pro wrestlers trained in catch wrestling after the revelations in the early 80's of the kayfabee nature of pro wrestling. Hence the name Shooto for "shoot style" or real fighting. However the Japanes still love pro wrestling, perhaps even more than we do, and MMA simply would not have caught on without storylines and faces. So to satisfy this need for faces and heels and the Japanese fanbases need for these aspects to become interested, some rules to the shoot nature of fighting had to be bent in order to cater to Japanese fans. It's really simple to understand when you look at how Japanese MMA has suffered since the fall of Pride and the loss of all of the name-brand heroes that they were used to cheering for. So how did that hurt MMA? It didn't. Nothing PRIDE ever did affected things here in the states in the grand scheme of things since PRIDE was never really big in the American market. The showy enterances, lights and the screaming lady all tied into this. This is part of why Japanese promotions don't demand exclusivity, since their business isn't hurt when one of their fighters does pro wrestling or loses a K1 fight. It's understood since pro wrestlers don't necessarily win all of their fights either.

But there were really kind of two worlds of Japanese MMA. There was the semi-kayfabee world where guys like Minowa and Takada lived off of freakshow matches to entertain and reel in the fans and there was the shoot world full of stars like Wandy, Cro Cop, the Rua brothers, Rampage, and Fedor existed; ie guys who were popular for their style of fighting, their skills and hardly needed any help winning. But Japanese MMA still isn't regulated, the judging and matchmaking is suspect, and there are few drug regs and those that exist seem exclusively self-serving (see Nick Diaz here). But it's all about the cultural difference between MMA there, MMA here and MMA in Brazil. MMA in Brazil is as real as it gets, it's still Vale Tudo there with almost no rules to be found and less match-fixing than Japan bc those people just wanna see fights. But I had little problem with what happend and still happens in Japan since; A- that's what Japanese MMA needs to survive; B- it happens over there; and C- you know which fights are the real ones and which are semi-works and the fighters who benefit from works are rarely, if ever, worked into the title picture. Look at the fighters who have come here from PRIDE. All said and done, they've done very well. Shogun is 2-1, Hendo beat his MW counterpart from the UFC, Rampage won the title, Big Nog beat Sylvia, and Fedor is tearing things up in Affliction.

And there are some negatives to how the UFC does business as well since, they too cater to pro wrestling aspects. I'd like to see some more tournaments in the UFC since I see that as the best way to shake out divisions. Alot of matchmaking caters to favorites and styles rather than actual skill. Guys who are popular often get title shots that they don't necessarily deserve (see Lesnar, Couture) while others are forced to work their way through a system that seems dead set against them (see Lyoto, Okami here). So in the end, MMA as a whole will be better once we get away from the MMA as entertainment mindset and more towards the competitiveness of MMA. Instead of wanting guys to get title shots because we like them we need an MMA fanbase that respects winners for simply being better fighters. Anyway, that's my foray into this PRIDE/Japan MMA discussion. More to come from me on this anyway.

[Stego]

I've heard it many times and I simply do not understand. In what way did Lesnar not deserve a title shot in the UFC? He dominated everyone he was put up against. There simply are not a lot of high caliber heavyweights. Arlovsky and Sylvia left the promotion. He fought Mir, and lost in the greatest bit of luck in the history of MMA. (Mir is a much, much better fighter, but it doesn't matter. He has about as much chance in their rematch as GSP or Florian would have.)

I think denying Machida the opportunity to take his belt for this long has been absurd. I also think denying Lesnar a chance at a belt we all knew he would win would have bee absurd too.

Since I will be away all next week and won't even be able to watch the fight, let me get on record as saying Machida dominates Evans. It's not even going to be a fight.

[JGP]

Since I will be away all next week and won't even be able to watch the fight, let me get on record as saying Machida dominates Evans. It's not even going to be a fight.

Evans is pretty canny. It won't be a walk for Machida but it will definately be a fight, Will.

I've been releatively silent on the MMA front cause I've missed the events for the last couple months for various reasons. This weekend's booked though, it's going to be great.

[benderschweiz]

I'm actually kind of curious about the Japanese and Brazil tie-ins with MMA. Pride was as much focused on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu as the early UFC. Rickson fought there from the very beginning and Sakuraba's popularity was in a large part from beating Royce and Renzo. It seems as though there's been a rivalry between Japanese fighters and Gracie Jiu Jitsu which goes back to a match between Helio and Kimura over 50 years ago. I don't know half the details on that story though.

Lesnar didn't need to be fed anymore cans before his title shot. He absolutely destroyed Herring in a way that necessitated a shot at the title with Nog and Mir already tied up with the interim belt. When you dominate someone like Lesnar did Herring you can get a shot right away. Anderson Silva did it as well by getting a shot at Franklin after only one fight in the UFC against Leben. Some guys are so talented there is no point in wasting time by making them fight Eddie Sanchez and Justin McCully.

[Cuellar]

Anyone watching the Ultimate fighter?

Started out somewhat strong, but was a joke with Junie's brother showing up in crazy mode. I think after this season I'm done. Although the UK guys seem pretty cool (even though I dislike Bisbing), disciplined, and more of a team, whereas the US guys are the same jackasses they always have. I'm not sure if it is all editing, or it is reality.

[Ken Stone]

Anyone watching the Ultimate fighter?

Started out somewhat strong, but was a joke with Junie's brother showing up in crazy mode. I think after this season I'm done. Although the UK guys seem pretty cool (even though I dislike Bisbing), disciplined, and more of a team, whereas the US guys are the same jackasses they always have. I'm not sure if it is all editing, or it is reality.

I've been watching. I really like the US v UK setup because it has been much more team focused than in the past. I also like TUF because it is more of a tournament set up, which I really appreciate. These first round of fights don't tend to be very good.

I will continue watching TUF as long as they keep making them. It's a good chance to see up and coming fighters. Also it's free fights on TV. What's not to like?

[ljkeane]

Anyone watching the Ultimate fighter?

I've been watching it, I can't watch the UFC events without paying for an extra channel that I don't really want so this is pretty much the only MMA I've been able to watch recently.

I think it's been ok so far, particularly the fight were the guy got his teeth knocked out after bragging he was going to knock his opponents out, that's some bad karma. Having said that I do find all the whining and crying about shit irritating.

[Analu]

Good post, Horus. About time you chimed in :P

Consider us even than. I recall being jumped all over completely unnecessarily in a GC thread not too long ago. That incident had nothing to do with my response in this thread, but it did make me rather indifferent to whether my response here was too harsh or not.

I have no desire to rehash old arguments, but if it's the thread I'm thinking of, you weren't jumped unnecessarily. When I talk shit about something I know nothing about, I expect to get flamed. But fine, we're even.

Lashley got a paragraph at best from the few mainstream outlets that actually cover the sport. Its not whiffing if nobody cares. Yeah the fight looked fishy. If he ever fights some real competition in an organization people have heard of (MFC ain't exactly a household name) and has a similar performance, some people might raise a fuss. He's too irrelevant right now to matter.

A paragraph from the mainstream media is all it takes and far more attention than MMA got just a short time ago. It was on the front page of Yahooo for a while. All it takes is for the casual viewer to read the headlines "Lashley Destroys Opponent in 20 Seconds!" to form an opinion. The wrong opinion.

I don't simply limit my criticism to Pride.

But in this debate, you were absolutely targeting PRIDE, with the implicit point that other MMA orgs didn't have the same problems.

In the end, I'm in the same boat as you. I just want to see great fights and don't care who puts them on. The UFC gives me great fights. Affliction does. Strikeforce does (sometimes). And PRIDE did.

[EHK for Darwin]

But in this debate, you were absolutely targeting PRIDE, with the implicit point that other MMA orgs didn't have the same problems.

How was that implicit? I wasn't doing a full dissertation on the shady history of MMA, I just happened to read some shit about Pride, brought it up and discussed it. I made no claim, implied or otherwise, about what problems other MMA organizations may have. PRIDE however was the topic, so naturally it would be most discussed.

But since you're asking, do I think other MMA orgs have the same problems? Not really. At least nowhere near the severity of PRIDE. Firstly, the only other MMA organization that really merits inclusion in the discussion is UFC. The rest are too small, too shortlived, and/or too insignificant. I also don't know a damned thing about them and I suspect most MMA fans don't really care. EliteXC was properly savaged here, on MMA blogs and boards, and in the mainstream media that covered the Kimbo debacle. I don't know enough about Strikeforce or Affliction beyond that one picked up Fedor and a few other heavy's and the other picked up the old EliteXC roster.

But UFC? It operates in a country with independent regulatory bodies and thus has (or can have) real oversight. Real drug testing. I've noticed some bad judging sometimes, but nothing that'd lead me to believe that it was corrupt or nation-biased judging. (nor popular-fighter biased) I know there are Bisping-Hamill conspiracy theories, but I don't give that much credence. Hell, I had the fight for Bisping initially before I rewatched the thing. (though Hamill took Bisping down repeatedly, I never thought he accomplished much on the ground) UFC has also had more than enough more prominent and marketable fighters lose fights they were supposed to win, I see no reason why they'd risk destroying their reputation just to get over a little better in England. The refing seems fine and if there was an issue there, it'd be pretty obvious and severe since they almost always have the same guy. Nary a whisper on any organized crime dealings. And not even a rumor of the current ownership pressuring or paying off fighters for a fix. Despite Dana's antics, both he and the Fertitta's seem overly protective of UFC's image and integrity. Reality show aside, they give every indication that they take it seriously as a sport and would not want to risk damaging it.

It does have problems, sure. But nothing that might seriously undermine the integrity of the sport or the organization.

But I had little problem with what happend and still happens in Japan since; A- that's what Japanese MMA needs to survive; B- it happens over there; and C- you know which fights are the real ones and which are semi-works and the fighters who benefit from works are rarely, if ever, worked into the title picture. Look at the fighters who have come here from PRIDE. All said and done, they've done very well. Shogun is 2-1, Hendo beat his MW counterpart from the UFC, Rampage won the title, Big Nog beat Sylvia, and Fedor is tearing things up in Affliction.

Can we really be sure its just the irrelevant, fan friendly fights that are affected? Rampage was one of those legit UFC star transfers, he did fight the face of the legit part of Japanese MMA at the time in Sakuraba, he was offered a bonus to lose. The Gracie Killer, the main Japanese claim to MMA legitimacy in those early days, a guy who did fight most of the big names in the organization, was aided by PRIDE with at least one attempted fix that we know of. That's the equivalent of UFC trying to fix a Chuck Liddell fight, that would absolutely have severe consequences if it got out over here. And if you consider the often grossly biased refing and judging, that throws even more 'serious fights' into question. Suspect matchmaking is just icing.

Given the organized crime involvement, lack of oversight, attempted fixes even for their legit fighters...can we really identify what were fixes and what weren't? When the organization itself has proven corrupt, isn't every lackluster fight or questionable decision suspect?

Guys who are popular often get title shots that they don't necessarily deserve (see Lesnar, Couture) while others are forced to work their way through a system that seems dead set against them (see Lyoto, Okami here). So in the end, MMA as a whole will be better once we get away from the MMA as entertainment mindset and more towards the competitiveness of MMA. Instead of wanting guys to get title shots because we like them we need an MMA fanbase that respects winners for simply being better fighters.

Maybe its cause I'm coming in as a boxing fan, but what's wrong with this? Bigger draws getting bigger and quicker opportunities seems about as obvious as the sun rising. So long as the less popular guys eventually get their shot if they're deserving record-wise, I don't see much of a problem with them waiting in line a bit longer. Might be a bit unfair if they've paid tons of dues and the other guy hasn't, but those are the breaks in individual combat sports. Maybe Lesnar hadn't racked up enough cans yet, but he's a big enough draw (proven by PPV numbers) to justify some quick lovin, the HW division isn't terribly strong to begin with, and he did win so clearly he had the skills.

Further, more entertaining fighters will always be in higher demand than the less entertaining ones. Even if the 'less' ones happen to be a bit better. I might 'respect' a better fighter, but I'm not gonna give his PPV's the time of day if his style bores me to tears. These sorts of sports are in the habit of reward fighters unafraid to take risks and turn a fight into a brawl. I don't really see that as a bad thing. At the end of the day, I want an entertaining fight. I'm more inclined to watch fighters who have a habit of making them. (That said, the MMA fans who start a chorus of boos after a mere 30 seconds of relative inaction still disgust me)

[Oorag]

Yeah, I really don't see fixing as being a good business decision these days. You pretty much stake your whole promotion in a single fight and fighter. To top it off, MMA is a sport of upsets. Fans expect the unexpected and championship reigns are often brutally short. Urijah Faber was the unbeatable face of the WEC, then he lost to someone with far less star power. Without missing a beat, they handed Urijah a guy he'd already pummeled and now they're going to make tons of cash on a rematch.

Japanese fans seemed to want eternal champions, fighters who kept coming back year after year to win or lose. Their interest didn't wane nearly as much from a loss, but fighters still needed to win occasionally to show that they were still warriors. Handing one of these guys a sure win every now and again was like keeping your golden goose fed. On the other hand, Americans are much more willing to discard a fighter who loses a few and quicker to turn their attention toward a hotshot newcomer. Fixing a fight in America is a bit more like going all in on a single hand that might just bust on the river.

I would be very surprised if that Lashley fight was actually a fix. I don't know what happened, though. Bas commented that he thought Lashley had let go of the choke, then tried it again. Maybe he choked Cook out, lost the hold as Cook flopped over, and failed to reapply it properly, thus leading to a disoriented Cook waking up and flopping around rather than tapping, fighting, or passing out again. At any rate, while MFC isn't a big promotion, it's not a tiny one either. I don't see them risking their entire future on an American wrestler who is going to ditch them as soon as he racks up a few more wins.

[Analu]

How was that implicit? I wasn't doing a full dissertation on the shady history of MMA, I just happened to read some shit about Pride, brought it up and discussed it. I made no claim, implied or otherwise, about what problems other MMA organizations may have. PRIDE however was the topic, so naturally it would be most discussed.

Okay

But UFC? It operates in a country with independent regulatory bodies and thus has (or can have) real oversight. Real drug testing. [.... ] Despite Dana's antics, both he and the Fertitta's seem overly protective of UFC's image and integrity. Reality show aside, they give every indication that they take it seriously as a sport and would not want to risk damaging it.

The UFC is very good about this now. As much shit as I give Dana, the one thing I'm positive is that he lets the pieces fall where they may. In the early UFC years though, there was a lot of shady shit going down, probably nothing involving the mafia, but rumors of fight-fixing, juicing, etc.

Little short on time, so will have to address some of your other points at a better time.

I would be very surprised if that Lashley fight was actually a fix. I don't know what happened, though. Bas commented that he thought Lashley had let go of the choke, then tried it again. Maybe he choked Cook out, lost the hold as Cook flopped over, and failed to reapply it properly, thus leading to a disoriented Cook waking up and flopping around rather than tapping, fighting, or passing out again. At any rate, while MFC isn't a big promotion, it's not a tiny one either. I don't see them risking their entire future on an American wrestler who is going to ditch them as soon as he racks up a few more wins.

I don't think it was a full-blown fix, meaning it was preplanned between both camps, BJM, MFC, etc. But I'm completely convinced Cook took a dive. Everything that he did during that fight looked wrong. He was practically sticking his neck out for Lashley, he wasn't defending the choke at all, and his leg shakes and arm flops looked more like something I'd see on WWE than in an MMA fight.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be MFC that set it up. I'm just speculating, but I imagine that the promotion that's hosting the Sapp vs Lashley fight stand the most to gain by a quick, visually brutal win by Lashley.

[EHK for Darwin]

The UFC is very good about this now. As much shit as I give Dana, the one thing I'm positive is that he lets the pieces fall where they may. In the early UFC years though, there was a lot of shady shit going down, probably nothing involving the mafia, but rumors of fight-fixing, juicing, etc.

Little short on time, so will have to address some of your other points at a better time.

I read about some of that shit. Sherdog I've found has a nice little list of known and suspected fixes and there are a few VERY early UFC fights on there. That said, if there is completely new ownership and management now, if they've been running it for years without a whiff of such things, does the shit that happened in UFC 6 when they still didn't have gloves or weight classes and were run by completely different people really rub off on the current owners? And even in the pre-Zuffa days, none of the shady shit I've heard of came from organization management. Dana's been running it for 8 years without any of those sorts of problems. Pride's management up until its last days was suspect.

[Analu]

Can we really be sure its just the irrelevant, fan friendly fights that are affected? [...]

Given the organized crime involvement, lack of oversight, attempted fixes even for their legit fighters...can we really identify what were fixes and what weren't? When the organization itself has proven corrupt, isn't every lackluster fight or questionable decision suspect?

I think we can be pretty sure. Fight fans aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, but one thing that seems intuitive in all of us is sniffing out funny looking fights. One only had to see the effort involved and brutality to distinguish one from the other.

And really, it's not like they made it all that difficult to parse out which ones were definitely legit, and which ones to watch with a sidelong glance. PRIDE had no problem throwing into the ring anyone that the Japanese fans wanted to see: pro wrestlers, actors, comedians.

And there are quite a few Japanese pro wrestlers that seem to be pretty legit, Sakuraba being the obvious first choice. But guys like Fujita, TK, Funaki have all had great fights that no one would question were genuine. But then, they've also had ones that smelled funny. It wasn't that hard to distinguish one from the other.

Maybe its cause I'm coming in as a boxing fan, but what's wrong with this? Bigger draws getting bigger and quicker opportunities seems about as obvious as the sun rising. So long as the less popular guys eventually get their shot if they're deserving record-wise, I don't see much of a problem with them waiting in line a bit longer. Might be a bit unfair if they've paid tons of dues and the other guy hasn't, but those are the breaks in individual combat sports. Maybe Lesnar hadn't racked up enough cans yet, but he's a big enough draw (proven by PPV numbers) to justify some quick lovin, the HW division isn't terribly strong to begin with, and he did win so clearly he had the skills.

I don't see anything wrong with it. MMA is sports entertainment. While some may put more weight on one than the other, and personally I've always slanted more towards sport, the entertainment side is a very important element.

It's why, though there's no question in my mind that Dana just sets up the fights then lets the fighters do their thing, you see him go bananas when fighters aren't initiating the action and making it exciting for the fans. It does frustrate me when I see fight fans booing and hating on fighters that I really like watching, though. But seems people are starting to come around on Machida.

I suspect there's going to be a lot of hating on him after this weekend, though.

[Ken Stone]

I'm headed to a sports bar tomorrow to catch theUFC 98 live! This will be the first PPV UFC that I watch and I'm pretty excited. I plan to drink it up.

What's everyone's predictions going into the fights? The only 3 I care about are:

Dan Miller v Sonnen - Miller is a stud. Sonnen has been a big disappointment in the UFC. I suspect this is the fight that ushers Sonnen out the door. Miller by 3rd TKO.

Serra v Hughes - I really would like to see Serra win it but I don't think it will happen. I suspect that Hughes will take Serra down pretty easily and pummel him for 3 rounds, on route to a 30-27 decision.

And lastly the fight that got me into the sports bar:

Machida v Evans - The only thing that has me nervous is that Evans is always an underdog, and always wins. He's got the Couture mojo going on. That being said Machida has beat better competition, more dominately. I suspect he will get the title and hold it for a long time.