EHK for MMA

[Horus Ex Machina]

BJ, I wanna jump into this big time, but I'm on my G1. Wait til I get in front of a computer bc you're missing the entire point of the article.

[Analu]

BJ, I wanna jump into this big time, but I'm on my G1. Wait til I get in front of a computer bc you're missing the entire point of the article.

All right dude, I'll wait for what you have to say.

But I think I understood the article. Basically, he's saying that other fighters have to shore up their own deficiencies and be as technical as Machida is to beat him, or else Machida will eat them alive. It makes sense. It's probably why BJ is the opponent that gave him the most trouble and actually landed a power punch on him, because BJ is pretty damn technical too.

I just didn't care for the smug, condescending way that Breen dude put it.

[Young Wolf]

On a sadder note, Time Warner Cable is doing away with HDNet. I am bummed.

[Horus Ex Machina]

All right dude, I'll wait for what you have to say.

But I think I understood the article. Basically, he's saying that other fighters have to shore up their own deficiencies and be as technical as Machida is to beat him, or else Machida will eat them alive. It makes sense. It's probably why BJ is the opponent that gave him the most trouble and actually landed a power punch on him, because BJ is pretty damn technical too.

I just didn't care for the smug, condescending way that Breen dude put it.

Well that's good bc you saved me alot of typing. So you get the gist of it. Most fighters relate overall strategies such as counter-punching, get him to move this way or that, but they aren't very good at understanding the subtleties that are necessary to make those things possible. There's a reason why Anderson and Lyoto will stand in front of you feinting and measuring you before they begin any type of offense. They're checking through a list of things that they might have noticed while game-planning. They're looking for those holes, flaws in how their opponents adjust to their movement, something that alot of fighters and fans alike just don't get.

The BJ analogy is good in this case, because it's not only about overall strategy but how a fighter approaches fighting. BJ is a technically sound fighter, and Lyoto will have trouble when isn't able to expose you. So the first step to beating Lyoto just might be taking care of your own deficiencies first. Or at least disguising them as best as you can.

Jordan Breen tells it like it is. His solution, as you said, is not just to have an overall gameplan but understand what it is specifically that you're opponent does that makes your game plan even possible. Lyoto's Shotokan calls this the Kyo, or the moments of weakness or imbalance which opens up avenues of attack. It's Breen's job to be analytical and frankly very few writers and MMA personalities out there understand the sport that they're covering well enough to do it as well as he does. If he comes across as condescending, it's because he's read through alot of the crap that passes as MMA analysis that gets into the general media, one of those idiots (read this crap) even writes on the same site as Breen. Yeah Jake, MMA needs a rule that forces standup fighters to go to the ground. :rolleyes: Put down the paste Jake. That dude should lose his job just for thinking that. Is that what professional MMA analysis should be?

Breen, otoh does his job, does his research the right way instead of just being another fanboy. I expect him to look down on us fans. He should understand the sport better than we do, bc if he doesn't then he's not doing his job and they might as well hire the "Just Bleed" guy out of the crowd from the next UFC. I like him bc he's often right and when he isn't he's at least laid the groundwork for understanding why the fight went the other way. Not enough guys out there writing on this sport who take their jobs seriously imho.

On a sadder note, Time Warner Cable is doing away with HDNet. I am bummed.

First ESPN 360, now no HDNet? Whoa buddy, they will rue this. And I have Time Warner.

[Analu]

I expect him to look down on us fans. He should understand the sport better than we do, bc if he doesn't then he's not doing his job and they might as well hire the "Just Bleed" guy out of the crowd from the next UFC.

Honestly, outside of actual fighters or ex-fighters, I don't think much of anyone whose job is MMA analysis or matchmaking, and don't see any as understanding it better than you or me or anyone here. Look at Joe Silva. IIRC, that little pipsqueak was basically just your random run-of-the-mill fan who kept sending letters to fight magazines proposing this fight and that fight, hey wouldn't it be great if you guys set up this fight? And now he's the UFC's matchmaker. And yeah, I'm just a fanboy and don't pretend to be all that smart, but I've been following the sport for a long time, grew up in a boxing atmosphere, and do some training (though admittedly, right now its almost exclusively BJJ. But I've boxed for years).

And Jordan Breen? I dunno. I've never heard of him until today, and like I said, haven't read sherdog in years. Online, I talk about MMA here, and at another sort of family-run site where my cousins usually link me to all the stories that they find on sherdog and elsewhere. But I doubt he's a fighter, he seems in love with himself and using five dollar words to show how smart he is, and I didn't much care for the article, other than his deconstruction of the fight and analysis of Evans footwork.

But if you say he's good, I'll take your word for it and stop bashing him. If you feel like linking some other articles of his that you think are good, I'll read them.

[EHK for Darwin]

Jordan Breen tells it like it is. His solution, as you said, is not just to have an overall gameplan but understand what it is specifically that you're opponent does that makes your game plan even possible. Lyoto's Shotokan calls this the Kyo, or the moments of weakness or imbalance which opens up avenues of attack. It's Breen's job to be analytical and frankly very few writers and MMA personalities out there understand the sport that they're covering well enough to do it as well as he does. If he comes across as condescending, it's because he's read through alot of the crap that passes as MMA analysis that gets into the general media, one of those idiots (read this crap) even writes on the same site as Breen. Yeah Jake, MMA needs a rule that forces standup fighters to go to the ground. :rolleyes: Put down the paste Jake. That dude should lose his job just for thinking that. Is that what professional MMA analysis should be?

Breen, otoh does his job, does his research the right way instead of just being another fanboy. I expect him to look down on us fans. He should understand the sport better than we do, bc if he doesn't then he's not doing his job and they might as well hire the "Just Bleed" guy out of the crowd from the next UFC. I like him bc he's often right and when he isn't he's at least laid the groundwork for understanding why the fight went the other way. Not enough guys out there writing on this sport who take their jobs seriously imho.

First ESPN 360, now no HDNet? Whoa buddy, they will rue this. And I have Time Warner.

The guy sounds interesting as hell. The article you linked was a damned good read as well. Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep a lookout for this guy in the future. Smug assholes who know their shit better than anyone...now if only they could make a TV show with that theme....

[Horus Ex Machina]

Oh yeah, I'll get you some. Like I said, he has an ego, but he does the legwork. And I like to read analysis of sports. I started out in a boxing atmosphere like you, most of my friends were boxers, my dad boxed in Nigeria, but my only training was in TKD until I started training MMA some years ago. But I was an avid fan of boxing, and boxing has long had better analysis than what you get now about MMA. Probably because there are few ppl out there who are really knowledgeable in all of the aspects. Even today we're still trying to find what works in MMA.

I've been saying for years that the "fact" that traditional martial arts don't work was a myth. But since one person said it, the rest of the MMA media branded it as truth and re-used each others general catch-phrases to explain why it was true when the reality is that we never really had enough evidence to know for sure what worked and what didn't. Ten years ago ppl were all saying "well 80% of all fights end up on the ground so all you need is BJJ." "No all you need is wrestling." "No, you just need to be tough." "Karate is useless in MMA, it was proven in UFC 1" If MMA had real sportswriters who did the legwork, we wouldn't be having this "revelation" being made by Machida. That's why MMA needs guys like Breen, who go beyond the catchphrases and beyond the platitudes and get to the meat. Tell us that maybe there's a reason why certain types of styles struggled at certain points in the development of MMA.

There is one statement that jumps out at me that he made on the differences between MMA striking and boxing striking on his radio show. I'll find the show and get you the link with the time that it happens, but it will be awhile.

[EHK for Darwin]

Honestly, outside of actual fighters or ex-fighters, I don't think much of anyone whose job is MMA analysis or matchmaking, and don't see any as understanding it better than you or me or anyone here. Look at Joe Silva. IIRC, that little pipsqueak was basically just your random run-of-the-mill fan who kept sending letters to fight magazines proposing this fight and that fight, hey wouldn't it be great if you guys set up this fight? And now he's the UFC's matchmaker. And yeah, I'm just a fanboy and don't pretend to be all that smart, but I've been following the sport for a long time, grew up in a boxing atmosphere, and do some training (though admittedly, right now its almost exclusively BJJ. But I've boxed for years).

When have you known ex-athletes in any sport to provide the most insightful and extensive analysis? They're a common staple in NBA/NFL/MLB broadcasts, but with a few exceptions, most of them are dead weight. Even the better ones aren't really on par with the better guys who came up from a straight sports journalism background. Playing in the sport is hardly a prerequisite for understanding the intricacies of it. Are they better than the avid fan? I'm sure some aren't. MMA journalism is in its infancy and there are likely a high rate of hacks and jumped up fanboys with blogs. But for the few who do collect a paycheck, this is their profession. This is their 40 hours a week. They should know and understand more than the average fan, even the obsessive fan. And if they're good at their jobs, they should know and understand far more than the ex-fighters as well.

I'm sure there are some insights and tidbits that cannot be gained without having played the sport, but a good professional journalist is gonna have a wider array of knowledge and insights than almost all the ex-athletes and given they're profession, they're likely to be much more capable of expressing it well.

Take HBO's boxing broadcasts as an example. Emmanuel Steward is a former boxer and one of the best trainers in the game. But he's near impossible to listen to. Half the time you're convinced he's not watching the same fight you are as his commentary is all over the place. Lennox Lewis has the occasional decent insight, but he can't speak all that well and often stumbles on the easy softballs tossed to him by Lampley and others. Who carries those broadcasts (and they generally are damned good broadcasts)? The professional journalists and commentators who've never put on a pair of gloves, Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant. Lampley is the best 'play by play' guy the sport has and Merchant, drunk ass, punch-drunk sounding asshole that he is, always has an amusing, witty and insightful comment for any situation...even if you do have to wait 10 minutes for him to finish a sentence. Always the guy to say the true and accurate shit that everyone else is afraid to.

If you can find that boxing vs. MMA striking discussion I'd love to hear it. Sounds interesting.

[Analu]

If MMA had real sportswriters who did the legwork, we wouldn't be having this "revelation" being made by Machida. That's why MMA needs guys like Breen, who go beyond the catchphrases and beyond the platitudes and get to the meat. Tell us that maybe there's a reason why certain types of styles struggled at certain points in the development of MMA.

Okay, I agree and you've convinced me to at least read some more about him. I'd also like to read his analysis of boxing striking vs MMA striking. Think I already know the differences, but would be curious to hear his take.

When have you known ex-athletes in any sport to provide the most insightful and extensive analysis? They're a common staple in NBA/NFL/MLB broadcasts, but with a few exceptions, most of them are dead weight. [...]

MMA is the exception to the rule, IMO. Everyone's dillydallied in football, basketball and baseball growing up and have some vague idea about how hard it is to be a professional athlete in those sports. In MMA, there are 3, 4, 5+ different disciplines unfolding and I think it's absolutely necessay to have trained in at least 2-3 areas of the sport before analyzing it.

It's why, though I'm not a huge Rogan fan, I respect him because I think he's a black belt in BJJ and TKD, has been doing this for a long time and knows his shit. It's why guys like Couture, Florian, Trigg all provide great commentary and insight. It's why I know I'm never going to be an MMA star, but I enjoy training in it and will probably enter some ammy contests in the future: to understand the feeling of being in that ring or cage.

Having some real-life experience with some disciplines in MMA seems pretty necessary (at least for me) to be an analyst, but it's all subjective.

[EHK for Darwin]

MMA is the exception to the rule, IMO. Everyone's dillydallied in football, basketball and baseball growing up and have some vague idea about how hard it is to be a professional athlete in those sports. In MMA, there are 3, 4, 5+ different disciplines unfolding and I think it's absolutely necessay to have trained in at least 2-3 areas of the sport before analyzing it.

It's why, though I'm not a huge Rogan fan, I respect him because I think he's a black belt in BJJ and TKD, has been doing this for a long time and knows his shit. It's why guys like Couture, Florian, Trigg all provide great commentary and insight. It's why I know I'm never going to be an MMA star, but I enjoy training in it and will probably enter some ammy contests in the future: to understand the feeling of being in that ring or cage.

Having some real-life experience with some disciplines in MMA seems pretty necessary (at least for me) to be an analyst, but it's all subjective.

Most kids don't dally in boxing, but in just about every boxing broadcast I've heard its the journalists with all the interesting insights, strongest analysis, and the all important ability to speak. Just not a fan of the jockocracy in sports journalism. They're brought in for face & name recognition and almost none of them earn their keep. Many of them are loath to criticize players/fighters even when its warranted. Most don't appear to do much research at all, treating it as a paid hobby rather than a profession. And even ones that may have unique insights often fail at adequately expressing them. I really don't see MMA as being particularly unique vs. other sports in this regard. So kids don't practice it on the playground. Still doesn't mean that training and fighting in it is necessary to deliver expert commentary on it.

Short interview with Jordan Breen that amounts to a mini-biography. Definitely doesn't meet your standards on background. Colllege student fanboy seems the most adequate description. Hell, I'd even be ready to dismiss the guy before I read his stuff. But if he's got the skills, he's got the skills. (in analysis anyway)

http://promma.info/?p=745

[Analu]

I really don't see MMA as being particularly unique vs. other sports in this regard. So kids don't practice it on the playground. Still doesn't mean that training and fighting in it is necessary to deliver expert commentary on it.

Yeah, we'll definitely have to agree to disagree with this.

Unlike other sports, a current or ex-fighter who's a bad commentator is the exception to the rule in MMA, not the other way around. It's likely because if you're an elite MAM fighter, you're also likely to be pretty technical, and can explain to the audience what's happening in exchanges that aren't easy to discern. Mir, Couture, Florian, Trigg: all technical fighters.

And its especially glaring when the fight gets to the ground. You absolutely need someone like Rogan or Mir to step most fans from Point A to B to C and so forth. We need to know why fighter X is digging his elbow into the thigh of fighter Y. We need to know why if fighter X can just get body over to the side a few inches he can lock up the arm triangle. We need to know why if fighter X can get just a little more pressure on the right side of fighter Y's neck, the fight will be pau.

Fighters or those who train in the sport are the only ones who can accurately explain that. It's why in almost every MMA commenting team since the inception of the sport, there's usually your classically trained PBP guy like Goldie or Ranallo, then you have your color commentator being a fighter or someone who trains, like Rogan, Bas, Mir, etc. I really don't see what's so hard to understand about why it's different.

As for boxing commentary, I never listened to them growing up. Whenever fights were on, we always turned down the volume and just provided our own commentary. I always assumed that the best commentators would've at least had some training in it, though. Strange

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Boxing's been around in its current form for long enough that sports journalists nowadays could have been exposed to boxing and its intricacies for their entire lives and research fights from before their time. There might be enough film, play by plays, instruction manuals, etc for anybody who want to become an expert in Boxing to do so without ever boxing.

With MMA, even the fighters and coaches don't fully understand the sport yet and it would difficult for anyone who hasn't trained to understand grappling and how it interacts with striking. There's just not enough written about the sport yet and the only way to learn about it for now is to practice it.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Ok, this is a Sherdog Radio question that was asked of him to explain the difference between the boxing ability of top boxers and MMA fighters who are good at boxing. He answers the question at 110:10. Try to ignore the thick Cannuck accent.

Also, being that I am a shameless schill for women's MMA, Strikeforce recently signed undefeated KO artist Sarah Kaufman, if you've never heard of her, she was a dancer who started training kickboxing at a gym that was in the same building as her dance school. She's 141 lbs, 9-0 with 8 KO's. She's also a very good interview and she's on with Breen for an hour, please check this out. Probably the biggest reason I started listening to Breen's show and tagging his articles was that I wanted to be able to keep up with female MMA fighters and he's probably the biggest expert on women's MMA that I've heard bar none. He keeps me informed. The interview starts at 73:00. Listen to it she's incredibly interesting and it delivers the goods.

I'd like to pick out some of his articles, but Sherdog doesn't archive their articles with the writer's name by it so you basically have to remember the name of an article that you liked and hope it's the one. I'll drop links when I see a good one from time to time. EHK had it pegged. I'd read his biography before and I was shocked not to find that he was a wrestling fan or had a crazy look, I mean he is Canadian, but that he wasn't older than he was. I would have thought mid to late twenties, something to that extent. He did wrestle in high school so he has some competitive background. Like I said, this is a guy who stays up with women's MMA, Japanese MMA, follows boxing, and he was once just a pro wrestling fan. But he takes this job seriously, watches alot of matches and actually analyses them. And that's why I've been impressed with him. And it takes alot for me to compliment ppl who are younger than me. (just turned 30)

Couture, Florian and Trigg are all great with commentary. I prefer Florian the most of the three, because he does the best job of separating himself from his analysis. Trigg has a habit of comparing every fighter to himself. Couture is often very good to point out various things in a fight while the action is going that Joe Rogan often misses. I'd like to see him back in the UFC booth, but since it was his announcer's contract that killed his attempt to leave the UFC, I doubt we see him do anymore "extras" for the UFC again. Maybe he'll end up on ESPN doing Bellator coverage.

MMA is the exception to the rule, IMO. Everyone's dillydallied in football, basketball and baseball growing up and have some vague idea about how hard it is to be a professional athlete in those sports. In MMA, there are 3, 4, 5+ different disciplines unfolding and I think it's absolutely necessay to have trained in at least 2-3 areas of the sport before analyzing it.

You underestimate number of ppl who have been on the wrestling team, learned boxing from their dad (me), or have taken Karate, TKD or judo (alot of ppl).

Oh and btw, on a sadder note, for those who heard that Mike Tyson's daughter was in critical condition this morning, she was just taken off of life support.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Down goes Canseco.

[BLU-RAY]

Down goes Canseco.

Wow, that was kind of embarassing to watch.

[Analu]

You underestimate number of ppl who have been on the wrestling team, learned boxing from their dad (me), or have taken Karate, TKD or judo (alot of ppl).

How so? I didn't underestimate anything. It's actually the other way around. I was pretty surprised when I realized how many people followed MMA and boxing and hadn't trained in it. I had pretty much always assumed that everyone who followed combat sports had done some training. Now I realize it was more a product of my upbringing than anything else.

And I listened to the Breen video about his dissecting MMA striking vs boxing striking and while I was a little distracted, my initial response is... eh. He didn't say anything that I haven't already heard.

Will listen to it again and get more in-depth if you want, but I wasn't all that impressed.

And definitely, RIP to Tyson's little girl. Wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy and just a senseless, terribly sad thing to happen.

[Horus Ex Machina]

How so? I didn't underestimate anything. It's actually the other way around. I was pretty surprised when I realized how many people followed MMA and boxing and hadn't trained in it. I had pretty much always assumed that everyone who followed combat sports had done some training. Now I realize it was more a product of my upbringing than anything else.

I don't know. I can't speak for the boards, and I do have alot of Mexican friends who were boxers or do MMA like me. I know alot of TKD guys and by extention Karatekas, Judokas, and Kung Fu practitioners. I've met and trained with a few fighters who've appeared in some big MMA shows too. But I also know that alot more ppl have at least tried one of those things and when I say that, I'm mostly hitting on the traditional martial arts. Maybe it's not a case that alot of guys boxed but I know alot of boxers, like you said, so who knows unless you take a survey.

And I listened to the Breen video about his dissecting MMA striking vs boxing striking and while I was a little distracted, my initial response is... eh. He didn't say anything that I haven't already heard.

Will listen to it again and get more in-depth if you want, but I wasn't all that impressed.

It isn't so much that it's not something that you haven't heard at all, it's that it's something that you normally don't hear a whole lot. Alot of MMA fans just say that a boxer won't survive in MMA simply because of the grappling involved or vice versa. But there are alot of other things involved. My MMA coach doesn't like to see anything that resembles TKD and such. He more or less prefers that our striking resemble boxing, bc that is his preferred style. And it is effective, our guys do very well, but there comes a point where the ability to use straight boxing strategies in MMA doesn't relate. Now I do what my coach tells me to bc he's paid to coach and I'm there to learn, but ppl may know these things, but they don't often think too hard about them. And you certainly don't hear that type of stuff from too many in MMA media. I almost get it from Kevin Iole when he's not being DW's walking, talking poster.

BTW here's the debut of Bruce Buffer's Sherdog Radio Show "It's Time!" I wonder if he can get DW to be a guest on Sherdog. Kinda surreal to hear Bruce, a Zuffa staple, on Sherdog, who DW hates.

Oh yeah, here's Jose Canseco's fight finder page.

And the new Punchout game. Sort of.

[Liffguard]

Down goes Canseco.

What the hell? Who is this clown and is he even a fighter? That was possibly the worst display I've ever seen in a ring. What little regard I had for Dream just nosedived.

[Horus Ex Machina]

What the hell? Who is this clown and is he even a fighter? That was possibly the worst display I've ever seen in a ring. What little regard I had for Dream just nosedived.

You don't know who Canseco is? Look him up under Oakland Athletics, Bash Brothers, etc.

And relax on Dream. They're doing what they have to do. The problem is that the Japanese public has lost interest in MMA but is still in love with pro wrestling. They're doing what they have to to survive. TBS isn't being patient with them and they have to deliver ratings. It would be different if they could survive on PPV's but that sort of business model isn't viable in Japan. This is another reason why you have to deal with this sort of thing in Japan. They're not really trying to impress us at all.

[Liffguard]

You don't know who Canseco is? Look him up under Oakland Athletics, Bash Brothers, etc.

Those terms mean nothing to me.

<googling in progress>

Ah, baseball, gotcha. As a red-blooded Englishman, baseball means slightly less to me than the constitutional controversies surrounding the appointment of Mrs Barbara Marigold to the vice-presidency of the Women's Institute of New South Wales.