EHK for MMA

[EHK for Darwin]

Wow, now that's a "blast from the past" fight. Don't think I've seen that one since I was 14 or 15. Okay, seeing it now.... that one was pretty obvious. But in the fights that actually mattered (contender fights, title fights, GP fights), I don't think there's any question that those fights were genuine.

The Japanese have always loved their pro wrestlers, and there were probably quite a few fights involving said fighters that were fixed. But they were pretty much harmless, IMO. I tended to just turn a blind eye to those fights, and concentrated on the greatness that were the HW, LHW, MW divisions during that time. And the GPs were pure awesomesauce.

I just don't agree that PRIDE was all that shady. Like it is with pretty much any major promotion in any sport, once it folds, a lot of dirty laundry is bound to come out. I doubt there were any Yakuza goons in the locker rooms threatening violence to the fighters if they didn't get the outcome they wanted.

It was just PRIDE, man. They didn't give a shit what we thought in the US. They just did their thing.

How is it harmless? This is a sport that just went mainstream a few years ago. It still struggles with image issues outside of the young male demographic; many still viewing it as either human cockfighting or jumped up pro-wrestling, either of which worthy of scorn and disdain in many eyes. MMA is by no means fragile anymore, but it isn't so well entrenched that a few large scandals couldn't fuck things up. Fight fixing and the others things mentioned definitely can challenge the credibility of the sport.

And even if it doesn't, its still a fucking sport. This isn't badly scripted performance art. It should be no place gimmicks, fixes, pro-wrestling style works, or anything else that challenges the integrity of it. Baseball, football, basketball...they've been around for 100+ years. They can survive the occasional scandal. Frankly I find it kind of appalling the way the Japanese ran this thing. No independent or government authorized sanctioning bodies of any sort to lend credibility to the sport. No steroids testing of any sort. (Yes baseball deserves the same flack for waiting so long to test themselves and they've gotten it) Hometown judging that'd make a European boxing judge blush. And of course the previously mentioned fixes. It seems incredibly amateurish, as if they're begging not to be taken seriously. I also can't understand the Japanese fans who apparently had very little problem with this mixing of pro-wrestling style fakery and gimmickry with real sport. The two should remain as far apart as possible.

Its either a sport or its not. And if its gonna be one, every effort should be made to ensure its overall integrity. Yeah boxing throughout its history has had a bunch of problems with this. But boxing isn't based around brands or organizations that exercise near complete control over the proceedings. Its too decentralized and that opens things up to corrupt promoters, judges and refs. The major MMA organizations are much more top down, self-contained, and can much more readily police themselves. The ones who choose not to, the ones who actively encourage and engage in these practices don't deserve an ounce of respect or viewership. If I started watching MMA a few years earlier, back when Pride was around and I knew these things than, there's not a chance I'd watch any product they put out. If I wanted that sort of crap, i'd flip on WWE.

[Analu]

Get off your high horse. So you do a few google searches, read some wikipedia entries about MMA and now you're the expert on the integrity of MMA, PRIDE and what the Japanese should or shouldn't be fans of?

You make it sound like fight-fixing was rampant in PRIDE when it wasn't. And so what if it had a pro wrestling crossover? The UFC's HW champ is Lesnar and there's other pro wrestlers like Lashley, Angle, etc. getting into MMA. And as I already pointed out, PRIDE's golden era was before anyone in the public/media really knew how serious a problem steroids were to the sports world.

Not even worth the effort to go any further, as PRIDE's already dead, and your opinion on it and the integrity of MMA both amuses and disgusts me.

[ljkeane]

Not even worth the effort to go any further, as PRIDE's already dead, and your opinion on it and the integrity of MMA both amuses and disgusts me.

That's a bit harsh mate, I don't think it's an unreasonable position to say that fixed contests are very bad for any sport regardless of the circumstances.

[Analu]

That's a bit harsh mate

Nope, it's not harsh. If someone wants to jump on his soapbox and bluster about all the terrible deeds of a long-dead organization that he only just now read about and never actually watched, then yeah, that pretty much amuses and disgusts me. MMA and its integrity wasn't sullied or tainted or whatever, and will go on.

Doesn't really matter to me if he's now turned off of a promotion that no longer exists or Japanese MMA because of such heinous acts that have sullied the good name of MMA FOREVER!!!

[Oorag]

Pride should be remembered warts and all. There was a lot of excitement, a lot of silliness, and the occasional back-room shenanigans. Kimbo Slice was a much bigger threat to the integrity of modern MMA than the skeletons in Pride's old closet. Ultimately the sport soldiers on.

[EHK for Darwin]

Get off your high horse. So you do a few google searches, read some wikipedia entries about MMA and now you're the expert on the integrity of MMA, PRIDE and what the Japanese should or shouldn't be fans of?

You make it sound like fight-fixing was rampant in PRIDE when it wasn't. And so what if it had a pro wrestling crossover? The UFC's HW champ is Lesnar and there's other pro wrestlers like Lashley, Angle, etc. getting into MMA. And as I already pointed out, PRIDE's golden era was before anyone in the public/media really knew how serious a problem steroids were to the sports world.

Not even worth the effort to go any further, as PRIDE's already dead, and your opinion on it and the integrity of MMA both amuses and disgusts me.

Yes, the predictable and pathetic 'You were never a real fan, why should anyone care what you think?' without, you know, actually addressing any of the merits. (wait, you did address one or two, hurray!!) I'll just sit here quietly in the corner until I've watched a few more years of the stuff, cause clearly these discussions are reserved for 'true fans'. 'MY' high horse? Please. As I'm sure you already know what those pro-wrestlers all have in common is that they're legit athletes with a legit amateur wrestling background. Noone's scouring the WWE ranks for the next hot prospect, but the few there with skills, ability, and who are looking to do something more real and respectable than bad performance art are making the transition. And the lack of steroids testing was merely a major symptom of a larger problem, the fact that there was no real oversight of the sport of any sort in Japan. No independent athletic commissions. No mandated standards. Nothing.

I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I do know that fixed fights are disgusting and unacceptable no matter the sport. They are not mostly harmless as you assert. They leave a stain on the credibility of even those 'fights that matter', which you assert were mostly legit. The Japanese can be a fan of whatever the hell they want, but if they have no problem with this sort of shit, than they quite frankly are not a fan of sport. When 'works' are uncovered in real sports, the people involved are fined, suspended, and hopefully banned for life. They are not invited back to do it again and again. When an organization actively engages in such nonsense, it deserves to be dismantled. I don't question the integrity of MMA, I do question the integrity of PRIDE. Pardon me for not shrugging it off and focusing on the 'good times' they gave everyone. Some people actually expect their sports to be run on the up and up and to face severe penalties when they're not, you know...like real sports. I'm sorry that I don't have your tolerance for Bush League antics.

Merely giving my opinion that had I watched the sport back then and known of these things, I would not give PRIDE the time of day. Cause quite frankly, it wouldn't deserve it.

Nope, it's not harsh. If someone wants to jump on his soapbox and bluster about all the terrible deeds of a long-dead organization that he only just now read about and never actually watched, then yeah, that pretty much amuses and disgusts me.

I don't recall a soapbox until someone decided to dismiss such corrupt, amateurish crap as "pretty much harmless". But that's right, I didn't get into MMA until recently, clearly I don't deserve an opinion and have absolutely no place discussing the issue. Though I am curious how watching for years vs. recently reading about it makes a fix any less of a fix? Or any of the other shit mentioned any less true or contemptible? Opinions on those things suddenly become valid if you've watched a few Grand Prix's? How many Saudi newscasts do I have to watch before I condemn the shit I've READ about their government doing? Do I really have to watch boatloads of Bollywood before I declare the idea of dancing girls interrupting the story every 10 minutes in every film ever made there to be a bit silly? Did i have to follow Nixon's career from start to finish before I declare him a corrupt scumbag, or could I have simply READ about it and done the same? How does reading vs. viewing & following really change any of this shit?

Kimbo Slice was a much bigger threat to the integrity of modern MMA than the skeletons in Pride's old closet. Ultimately the sport soldiers on.

I agree. But mostly because the mainstream public actually knew who Kimbo Slice was. If PRIDE had the same level of exposure over here and all this shit became public, it would have hurt the sport.

[Analu]

I already addressed most of your main points. You seem to be hung up on my one throwaway line that it was "pretty much harmless", which was maybe the wrong word to use, but meant in the context of how PRIDE originated in the first place.

But okay, you really want to do this? Fine, let's do this. Go and find me how many allegedly fixed fights that you're aware of that happened in PRIDE. List them here. I bet I can find just as many fights that occurred on US soil (UFC, EliteXC, etc.) that are just as suspicious.

We'll go from there.

[EHK for Darwin]

I already addressed most of your main points. You seem to be hung up on my one throwaway line that it was "pretty much harmless", which was maybe the wrong word to use, but meant in the context of how PRIDE originated in the first place.

But okay, you really want to do this? Fine, let's do this. Go and find me how many allegedly fixed fights that you're aware of that happened in PRIDE. List them here. I bet I can find just as many fights that occurred on US soil (UFC, EliteXC, etc.) that are just as suspicious.

We'll go from there.

This isn't a damned pissing contest. I'm not trumping UFC over Pride, I'm simply slamming Pride. For what seems to me to be pretty good reasons. If it comes out that UFC was just as bad, I'll give them hell too. If it comes out that they were just as bad and are still like that, I'd probably stop watching. If I wanted fixed sports and gimmicks over substance, I'd watch WWE. I'm sure there were a few fixed fights in UFC. Boxing has a nasty history of such corruption. But there's a vast difference between some isolated buyoffs and payoffs (or even a ton of buyoffs and payoffs) and the organization itself actually promoting and conducting this shit. That's where PRIDE fails IMO. They as an organization were putting on these worked fights. Maybe not many. But even a few squanders what credibility such an organization may have had. I won't stop watching UFC tomorrow if I find out BJ Penn accepted a big payoff from a gambler to throw the GSP fight, though I'll lose a ton of respect for Penn and may avoid his fights. If I find out that Dana, the brothers, and other execs in the organization pressured or paid him to lose, I just might. Also if I find out that UFC as an organization has solid proof of recent fight throwing and did nothing about it, I'd come down on them as well.

The rest of the more minor shit (bonuses for losing, super biased judging on a regular basis, refs all but jumping into the fight on the side of local fighters, lack of any real oversight, etc) just adds to the credibility issues. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion. But this shit, even in minor quantities, strikes me as a pretty damned serious black mark against any organization. At some point it simply stops deserving the title of sport.

As for EliteXC, their handling of the last Kimbo fight was an appalling embarrassment and I've said as much at the time. (if not here than elsewhere) Their pushing of Kimbo at all when it was pretty clear he didn't have the skills was pure gimmickry and quite stupid. I'm glad the organization went under. They deserve it for their pseudo payoff to Kimbo's opponent and for being dumb enough to place every egg in an extremely shaky basket.

[Analu]

But there's a vast difference between some isolated buyoffs and payoffs (or even a ton of buyoffs and payoffs) and the organization itself actually promoting and conducting this shit. That's where PRIDE fails IMO. They as an organization were putting on these worked fights. Maybe not many. But even a few squanders what credibility such an organization may have had. I

Okay, I'll concede that it would potentially be a big turnoff to read that the corruption may have started from the top-down. But I want to point out that as far as I know, there's no clear, indisputable evidence that this was definitely the case. Just a lot of rumblings and Internet rumors. The fact that a lot of elite fighters have spoken glowingly of PRIDE and stated their desire to fight in Japan leads me to believe it wasn't a huge problem.

And it wasn't just elitism that let me to mock your PRIDE slamming. I actually despise the "I've watched <X sport> longer than you have and so my opinion is >>> yours" argument, and usually try to avoid using it at all costs. The reason it bothered me is because I genuinely believe that had you watched their shows during that time, you would understand. Like Oorag said, there was a lot of silliness and maybe some shenanigans behind the scenes, but they were overshadowed by the brilliance of the fighters and the fights. I don't know anyone who wouldn't love it when they saw it and question the authenticity of 99.9% of the fights.

But I get that it's that .01% that you have issue with. And if that's the case, fine. The organization is pau anyways, and DREAM is a poor man's version of it. But I honestly believe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it if it was still around.

[Oorag]

Anyone catch the Maximum Fighting Championship fight on Friday? Bobby Lashley had his third fight and got a crushing submission. After throwing a single punch, he took it to the ground and locked on a guillotine. His opponent passed out, then apparently woke up and started flopping around the mat like a fish before Big John realized what had happened. 24 seconds. His opponent had taken to wearing a lucha libre mask to riff on Lashley's pro wrestling past, which apparently really, really pissed Lashley off. The rest of the card was okay. Eastman got a nice TKO with elbows, which is funny because the event came right after an Inside MMA where Bas Rutten was once again criticizing elbows because they "hardly ever" cause knockouts. Rutten of course had to act all surprised at the turn of events. They interviewed Jason MacDonald, who had to put a good face on coming back to the Canadian minors. He should use this time to work on his stand-up.

[Analu]

Anyone catch the Maximum Fighting Championship fight on Friday? Bobby Lashley had his third fight and got a crushing submission. After throwing a single punch, he took it to the ground and locked on a guillotine. His opponent passed out, then apparently woke up and started flopping around the mat like a fish before Big John realized what had happened. 24 seconds.

As long as we're arguing about how legit PRIDE was and slamming it for some supposed works, that Lashley fight was one of the worst works I've seen in recent years. He passed out, then woke back up? The fuck? Probably just to hype up the PPV fight between Lashley and Sapp next month, but Cook shouldn't have made it so damn obvious.

Looking forward to UFC 98 next Saturday. It's probably going to be a really boring fight given the styles of Evans and Lyoto, but I've been waiting for Machida to get his shot for so long, I don't care.

[benderschweiz]

From what I've seen Lashley isn't going to be anything special. People compare him to Lesnar, but he doesn't have the quickness or power for his size like Lesnar has. Lesnar would have crushed Jason Guida with much less training than Lashley had. Also, Lashley isn't naturally as large as Lesnar, with his national championship win being at 177 lbs. I don't think Lashley will ever catch up to the up and coming HWs in the UFC. He wouldn't stand a chance against Brown Pride, Carwin, Barry, or Kongo. If it was Sapp from a few years ago he'd destroy Lashley.

Feeling mixed emotions about the main event this week. I want Machida to take the belt, but Evans vs. Rampage could be great. Machida's going to take this one though...

[Oorag]

Rumors are swirling that Cro Cop is going to be returning to the UFC, replacing Mostapha Al Turk's opponent for UFC 99. Nothing credible has yet to surface. If Cro Cop is coming back, it must be at a vastly reduced price. At this point, I really wouldn't put him much higher than Antoni Hardonk. Still, maybe there's a chance of him finding that old spark one last time.

[Analu]

That's strange. What about the revenge fight he wanted against Overeem? If he comes back to the UFC, I'd like to see him at LHW. The guys at HW are just too big and strong for him right now. And I don't think his balls can take anymore punishment.

And I'm changing my handle as soon as I can think of a good alternative. I'll always be a BJ fan, but this boycotting Vegas thing is just the last straw and I'm fed up with it.

[Horus Ex Machina]

It is confirmed that Cro Cop is back.

I'm a bit upset that I couldn't add my own two cents on the PRIDE discussion that was going on in here, but I followed it pretty closely and it was a great topic.

On Evans v. Machida, I like both fighters as a fan, but find myselft strongly pulling for Machida and not bc he's buddies with Anderson, but to see him take the premier UFC strap and finally dispell the myth that "Karate is useless". Anything can be useful if you know how and where to apply it. That's straight out of the mouth of Bruce Lee people.

[benderschweiz]

Tom Attencio just used twitter to announce Fedor vs. Barnett at Affliction III. Hopefully this one happens as it's the last relevant HW outside of Overeem for Fedor.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Is it happening here or in Japan? Rumor mill has been saying that an HBO deal is in the works for Affliction. But they're also saying that Affliction III could be a co-promotion with DREAM.

[Stego]

And I'm changing my handle as soon as I can think of a good alternative. I'll always be a BJ fan, but this boycotting Vegas thing is just the last straw and I'm fed up with it.

Good. A grown man naming himself after another grown man always seemed really, really immature and douchey. Sorta like a 40yr old man wearing the football jersey of a 24 year old player. It's incredibly pathetic.

But then, you're defending fight fixing.

You should keep the name. :D

[Analu]

I'm a bit upset that I couldn't add my own two cents on the PRIDE discussion that was going on in here, but I followed it pretty closely and it was a great topic.

I dunno. The discussion seemed kinda useless to me, as it was two years late, seemed to be primarily based on Internet rumors, and hasn't had much (if any) negative impact on the sport. But maybe it is a good thing to go over it a few years later and see if things look any different than how I remembered it.

Watched PRIDE thru my teens, so maybe that shaped my thinking that it was greater than it actually was. Will have to try to dig up some old PRIDE tapes and maybe give it a closer look, see if I can spot anything fishy.

Tom Attencio just used twitter to announce Fedor vs. Barnett at Affliction III.

That's going to be a strange fight as well, as Fedor and Barnett are good buddies.

[Oorag]

I know Barnett has a fair grasp of Japanese, but I've never heard Fedor speak anything but Russian. Do those guys share a language?