EHK for MMA

[Horus Ex Machina]

Those terms mean nothing to me.

<googling in progress>

Ah, baseball, gotcha. As a red-blooded Englishman, baseball means slightly less to me than the constitutional controversies surrounding the appointment of Mrs Barbara Marigold to the vice-presidency of the Women's Institute of New South Wales.

Yeah, but Canseco means alot to the Japanese.

"Funny, you like samurai swords. I like baseball." -Sonny Chiba

[EHK for Darwin]

Those terms mean nothing to me.

<googling in progress>

Ah, baseball, gotcha. As a red-blooded Englishman, baseball means slightly less to me than the constitutional controversies surrounding the appointment of Mrs Barbara Marigold to the vice-presidency of the Women's Institute of New South Wales.

He also received heightened notoriety for writing a tell all, naming names on all the roid users in baseball he came in contact with, admitting his own usage, and declaring 85% of the league was on the stuff. He became pretty much persona non grata in baseball circles even after half his shit was proved right, not only for ratting, but for being an absolute jackass about it. In the last several years he's pretty much milked his notoriety for all its worth, becoming something of a caricature, attention (and cash) seeking at every opportunity. Before his Dream appearance, he'd also done celebrity boxing...where he got demolished in about 30 seconds by a guy he outweighed by 40 pounds. (The other guy had some golden glove experience) He's done reality shows, any TV appearance that comes his way. He's essentially become a celebrity above and beyond his previous baseball fame. I took some small measure of enjoyment watching him get his ass kicked, though I'm sure he cashed in for that appearance and didn't take nearly enough bruises. And actually, he exceeded my expectations landing that one flush shot at the beginning.

In either case, that whole super-hulk thing was a farce from top to bottom. Barely an ounce of actual skill on display, not even from Sapp. Total freakshow.

[EHK for Darwin]

doublepost.

[Analu]

I don't know. I can't speak for the boards, and I do have alot of Mexican friends who were boxers or do MMA like me. I know alot of TKD guys and by extention Karatekas, Judokas, and Kung Fu practitioners. I've met and trained with a few fighters who've appeared in some big MMA shows too. But I also know that alot more ppl have at least tried one of those things and when I say that, I'm mostly hitting on the traditional martial arts. Maybe it's not a case that alot of guys boxed but I know alot of boxers, like you said, so who knows unless you take a survey.

Yeah, I dunno either. Like I said, I grew up around boxing, all my buddies and (male) cousins do it, a few of my uncles were semi-pro, and I just assumed that everyone did some training. Guess not.

And it is effective, our guys do very well, but there comes a point where the ability to use straight boxing strategies in MMA doesn't relate.

This is something I argue with my uncles all the time. They're old-timers and sneer at MMA. Drives me nuts.

And relax on Dream. They're doing what they have to do. The problem is that the Japanese public has lost interest in MMA but is still in love with pro wrestling. They're doing what they have to to survive. TBS isn't being patient with them and they have to deliver ratings. It would be different if they could survive on PPV's but that sort of business model isn't viable in Japan. This is another reason why you have to deal with this sort of thing in Japan. They're not really trying to impress us at all.

Very true. MMA is dying in Japan. Was white-hot when it came out, but now seems to be just a passing fad over there. Still feel lucky to have caught it when it was great, though.

[Oorag]

Oh my god! DREAM! What a wild and bizarre country you are, Japan!

First of all, I knew I was in trouble when they had the K-1 team doing the commentating, led by the Australian Schiavello, who really missed his calling as a 19th century carnival barker. The only advantage he seems to have is knowledge of Japanese, but he didn't bother translating or explaining any of the introduction videos throughout the night like the Sengoku translator did. Anyway, down to the card itself:

First we've got the "Super Hulk Tournament." This is basically freak show central. Bob Sapp and Hong Man Choi are neck-and-neck for worst pound-for-pound fighters in the business, possibly only behind that 400 lb. fat guy whom Shamrock recently KO'd. Sapp got submitted in quick order, but Choi lucked out in being pit against Canseco, who did marginally better than a random member of the audience until he tripped on his own Tae Kwon Do and tapped out. The commentators suggested he got six figures for the performance, so he looks like he might have been the real winner of the tourney. Sokoudjou went against a guy with a 2-5 MMA record and a 9-19 kickboxing record. Sokoudjou's reputation took more damage than he did after he threw about eight late punches while the referee was trying to pull him away for a TKO victory. A post-fight brawl between corners was narrowly averted. Meanwhile, Mousasi went against Hunt, who showed up fat and disinterested and got submitted fast. All in all, the Japanese proved that they have the technology to build an MMA time machine back to 1997.

On to the Featherweight Tournament: Abel Cullum vs. Hideo Tokoro had a fantastic, high-energy grappling contest with plenty of narrow submission escapes and crazy moves flying. The only downside was that the commentators were so surprised to be watching a good fight that they spent half of it just talking about how good a fight it is. Tokoro ended up finishing it in the second round. Too bad, I was rooting for Cullum because he had soldiered through a triangle in the opening moments of the fight, and because I tend to root for Western fighters in Japan like I root for Japanese fighters in America.

The Yoshiro Maeda vs. Hiroyuki Takaya fight wasn't terribly exciting. It was pretty close until an out-of-nowhere punch dropped Maeda and ended it in an instant.

The Masakazu Imanari vs. Bibiano Fernandes was a snoozefest. I recall Imanari's previous fight was also a snoozefest. He's the "king of leglocks" but leglocks seems to be about the worst specialty to have. He's incredibly lethargic in the ring and prefers to clown around rather than fight. This time he got matched up with a fighter who was slightly less lethargic then him.

Then we get to the unofficial main event, the triumphant return of Kid Yamamoto. In the first round, they played a clip of all the Japanese fighters talking about how great he is and how much they want to fight him, and then Dream gives him a by into the second round. He commentated for the Japanese on the previous event, as I recall. Their promotional video for the second round featured a camera following Kid into his Crazy Bee gym, with all sorts of messages being green-screened onto his shirt. It was actually a pretty cool effect and video, but it certainly showed that Dream had no qualms about marketing this as the Kid Yamamoto Tournament.

So on his first fight back from knee surgery, who should he be matched against but Joe Warren, an American (hisss!!!) who entered the tournament with zero professional fights. Boy, what a cut-and-dry win for Yamamoto to stay in the tournament and keep this gravy train rolling, right? Except, oops, no. Warren out-wrestles Yamamoto en route to a split decision win. Personally, until the final minute I thought Yamamoto was a bit ahead considering his superior stand-up and Warren's disinterest in passing guard and going for a finish on the ground, but then Warren landed in side-control and ended strong with a flurry, possibly tipping the balance. Even Japan's infamously biased judges handed Warren the huge upset victory, which will probably cost Dream a hell of a lot of money in their next event. Considering that, from what I hear, Dream is still fighting for survival, I think there were a lot of very shocked and upset executives that night.

Then we get to the real main event, Miller versus Jacare. They have a fantastic opening video really showcasing the two fighters' goofy personalities. These opening videos really encapsulate the different take the Japanese have toward fighting. In America we only hear about what a supreme bad-ass the fighters are, but in Japan they show their whole careers, including their tough, high-profile losses. In fact, during the Canseco fight I swear they froze on a picture of Barry Bonds, apparently talking about Canseco's whole steroid ordeal. Anyway, the fight barely lasted two minutes before Miller landed an illegal kick that cut Jacare's head and ultimately ended the fight on a NC. What a downer ending.

All told, it was a bizarre event of ups and downs, but what do you except from Dream? It's interesting how both Japanese featherweight tournaments have their ongoing Cinderella stories in Omigawa and Warren. I wonder if they'll go all the way to the top. Since Time Warner is dropping HDNet, the bastards, I might never find out. Legally, at least.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Very true. MMA is dying in Japan. Was white-hot when it came out, but now seems to be just a passing fad over there. Still feel lucky to have caught it when it was great, though.

Oh my god! DREAM! What a wild and bizarre country you are, Japan!

It seems strange that the country that gave us Karate and Judo have so little interest in MMA. Meanwhile MMA might be taking a foothold in countries like China and Korea. Sad to see it dying in Japan though.

The worst thing that could happen for DREAM. On the night they stage this big publicity apparatis to get eyeballs their biggest Japanese star, Kid Yamamoto, can't win. I'm pretty certain that K1 has the money to keep this thing going even if they lose their primetime slot, but it does puzzle me as to where Sengoku fits into this equation. They don't seem to fill arenas and I can't imagine that they even get DREAM's ratings on Fuji TV, but you never seem to hear rumors of them losing their primetime TV slot.

BTW, Ooraq, that's Krazy Bee. :thumbsup: But truthfully for all of Japanese MMA foibles, judging hasn't really been too terribly biased. Hell they even robbed Gomi once in favor of a foriegner back in Pride. Not too shocked that they would go against Yamamoto if he truly lost. It's the tournament matchmaking that is usually manipulated and that by the promoters, but the judging has been ok for the most part. Thier criteria is a bit foriegn to us sometimes bc they don't go round by round but rather take the fight into consideration as a whole. If a man seems as though he might have stopped the fight in the closing but was losing the entire fight, they might just give him the win anyway.

[Oorag]

BTW, Ooraq, that's Krazy Bee. :thumbsup:

BTW, Horus-SpiderObama, that's Oorag. :D

It's the tournament matchmaking that is usually manipulated and that by the promoters, but the judging has been ok for the most part. Thier criteria is a bit foriegn to us sometimes bc they don't go round by round but rather take the fight into consideration as a whole. If a man seems as though he might have stopped the fight in the closing but was losing the entire fight, they might just give him the win anyway.

Yeah, to be honest, as much as I keep hearing about Japan's suspect judging, I can't personally recall any fights I watched lately where I thought someone got robbed. I mean, if there was ever a fight to gift the Japanese fighter with some bonus points for a W, it would have been that Yamamoto/Warren fight. There's no getting around the crazy matchmaking, though.

[benderschweiz]

USA Today is claiming it's going to be Shogun vs. Machida and Rampage vs. Evans. Rampage was quoting as saying he wants to get back to wrestling before a fight with Machida. This is good news in my mind. I really wanted to see Evans vs. Rampage.

[Ken Stone]

USA Today is claiming it's going to be Shogun vs. Machida and Rampage vs. Evans. Rampage was quoting as saying he wants to get back to wrestling before a fight with Machida. This is good news in my mind. I really wanted to see Evans vs. Rampage.

This is great news. TUF 10 should be a very entertaining season again. The only problem is it looks like Machida/Rua won't be until Sept. With the minimal damage Machida takes in fights he would easily fight every 2 months.

[Analu]

Bob Sapp and Hong Man Choi are neck-and-neck for worst pound-for-pound fighters in the business, possibly only behind that 400 lb. fat guy whom Shamrock recently KO'd.

Honestly, HMC isn't all that bad. He moves surprisingly well for a man of his size and IIRC has some pretty good wins in K1 over guys like Schilt and Mo.

Still haven't had a chance to watch the rest of DREAM. Hopefully will take care of that this afternoon.

USA Today is claiming it's going to be Shogun vs. Machida and Rampage vs. Evans. Rampage was quoting as saying he wants to get back to wrestling before a fight with Machida. This is good news in my mind. I really wanted to see Evans vs. Rampage.

Man, I really hate this. For like the last 5-7 years, my favorite fighters have been in the following order: 1 BJ, 2 Shogun, 3 Machida.

Really don't know who to root for. While I love this newly aggressive Machida, Shogun was my all-time favorite PRIDE fighter and I was really looking forward to him coming to the UFC and just blitzkrieging his way to the LHW title. Not at Machida's expense, though. Was hoping they'd give Shogun one more fight to fine-tune his skills and gas tank before giving him the shot.

It seems strange that the country that gave us Karate and Judo have so little interest in MMA. Meanwhile MMA might be taking a foothold in countries like China and Korea. Sad to see it dying in Japan though.

It really is sad. I remember back when their NYE shows would attract ridiculous numbers. Something like 70% of all Japanese households were tuned in to watch Fedor take on Big Nog, Cro Cop, Wandy, etc.

[Horus Ex Machina]

For his size Hong Man Choi isn't great. He bruised up Fedor in their fight but he should have beaten him. Pure and simple, he should have won. He let Jose Canseco hit him way too many time and he's a pro and ALOT bigger than him. His success in K1 has alot more to do with his size and aggressiveness than his skill and he still lost his share there. Never won a Grand Prix that I remember.

On the match between Shogun and Machida, I guess the UFC is finally making some of the matches that they had once wanted to. If you remember this was supposed to be Shogun's first match. Also Evans vs. Jackson was supposed to be the title match. Both fights that ppl wanted. But I had wanted my black on black crime to be for the title and I knew that Evans would lose the belt so we wouldn't get that. It's ok. Tough to choose between Shogun and Machida, but Machida is a member of the Spiders set, so it's Machida for me. Shogun was my favorite coming from Pride along with Rampage but both are on par with Machida who I'd known about since his HERO's days.

I've never seen a sport drop from consideration with a marketplace this quickly. Japan is dominated by baseball, soccer, and wrestling. The Yomiuri Giant's, Gamba Osaka, or someone named Tiger Mask was always going to be bigger than MMA for a time but it seemed that it had found it's niche since K1 was so succesful there. Indeed K1 is still successful, and it's parent organization runs DREAM which is a K1 version of PRIDE; the best of both worlds. It can't be the scandal bc all three of the bigger sports in Japan have gone through scandal and survived. You talk about Yakuza involvement in PRIDE; Yakuza involvement is just about rumoured in just alot of things there. But in the end the fact that combat sports in Japan have to survive on a primetime format dependent on ratings may hurt them. The only problem is that, despite Japans very healthy economic status, the Japanese simply do not believe in buying PPV's. They just won't do it.

[Ken Stone]

So Rampage was set to fight for the belt against Evans but had to back out because of an injury. He was given the first shot at Machida after his victory but instead decided to do TUF, paving the way for Rua. I just can't shake the feeling that Rampage basically, for all intents and purposes, ducked Machida. I don't blame him, but it is really surprising. Before Machida had the belt all he could say was "I want my belt back". Now he was giving the opportunity to get his belt back and he is taking some other fight instead. I don't blame him really, but it is surprising.

[Analu]

For his size Hong Man Choi isn't great. He bruised up Fedor in their fight but he should have beaten him. Pure and simple, he should have won.

I hope you're joking with this. He should have beat Fedor? Why exactly? Since when has anyone beaten Fedor? IIRC, he may have gotten him down a few times, but Fedor is a master at scrambling and getting back up.

I wasn't saying HMC is great. I said he's not all that bad, certainly not one of the worst P4P. And he moves well for his size.

So Rampage was set to fight for the belt against Evans but had to back out because of an injury. He was given the first shot at Machida after his victory but instead decided to do TUF, paving the way for Rua. I just can't shake the feeling that Rampage basically, for all intents and purposes, ducked Machida. I don't blame him, but it is really surprising. Before Machida had the belt all he could say was "I want my belt back". Now he was giving the opportunity to get his belt back and he is taking some other fight instead. I don't blame him really, but it is surprising.

Could be a combination of ducking, feeling like he has a score to settle with Rashad, and just plain good business sense. If he thinks that he can easily beat Evans, then he gets the exposure of another TUF season, plus a main event or co-main event PPV against Evans. If he wins, then he immediately gets another main event PPV for the title shot. If it's against Shogun, all the better. A chance for him to avenge an old loss. If it's against Machida, he'll now have had several more months to sharpen his game, which is something I'll bet every LHW contender is thinking they need right now.

Having said all that, I'm surprised Rampage turned it down, too.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I hope you're joking with this. He should have beat Fedor? Why exactly? Since when has anyone beaten Fedor? IIRC, he may have gotten him down a few times, but Fedor is a master at scrambling and getting back up.

I wasn't saying HMC is great. I said he's not all that bad, certainly not one of the worst P4P. And he moves well for his size.

No I'm not. Speaking of how good he is P4P, you're not good if you cannot beat a person over a foot shorter than you and that you outweigh by about 125 lbs. If he were good he'd have a better MMA and K1 record than he does. The fact that he's not capable of taking advantage of those advantages marginalizes his skills, P4P.

My meaning is that if he were a more normal size with the same skills, he would be murdered. But this isn't new when you consider what gigantism does to your motor reflexes and coordination. You usually don't exactly move well, and the strain on the heart and respiratory system will likely lead to an early death, perhaps in his 50s.

[Analu]

No I'm not. Speaking of how good he is P4P, you're not good if you cannot beat a person over a foot shorter than you and that you outweigh by about 125 lbs. If he were good he'd have a better MMA and K1 record than he does. The fact that he's not capable of taking advantage of those advantages marginalizes his skills, P4P.

I guess guys like Sylvia, Mark Hunt and Schilt must suck then too, by that logic. You're basically saying he's bad because he couldn't beat Fedor despite being considerably bigger and heavier. Which frankly, is pretty baffling to me. No one in the world can beat Fedor.

And again, I didn't say he was great or even good. I said he wasn't "all that bad". Because he's not.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Sylvia, Hunt, and Schilt are all midgets next to him. He's a pro, I'll give him that. And he tries hard, but he has coordination issues, which is not unusual for guys with his condition. You just said that you didn't say that Choi was great or even good, but the post that you blasted me for what I said about Choi was

"For his size Hong Man Choi isn't great."

Which is true, a great fighter his size would have beaten Fedor. I don't know what your definition of great is, but you can't really argue that a great 7'2" 350lb fighter should beat excellent 6'0" 230 guy. Can smaller guys beat bigger guys in MMA, sure certainly. But great bigger guys usually beat great smaller guys unless they weren't that much bigger to begin with. You think that DREAM didn't know what they were doing? They knew the crowd would see the visuals and marvel, but in fact they saw little risk to Fedor's legend putting him in there bc, for his size, he has little skill or technique.

[GSP]

Wow, LHW got interesting. Glad to see they are not holding up the belt with Tuf.

I've gotta give it to Machida over Rua and Jackson over Evans.

[Stego]

I've gotta give it to Machida over Rua and Jackson over Evans.

Machida destroys Rua. First round finish.

Evans makes Rampage get another crazed DUI in his ridiculous hummer by knocking the piss out of him. Evans is a superior fighter to Jackson, and it will be obvious.

[benderschweiz]

Never cared for Kimbo while he was with EliteXC, but it's his calling to be on TUF with Rampage. He'll never be a top fighter, but he's already top 10 in entertainment value.

[GSP]

Kimbo actually doing TUF. That's crazy. Hope he's been working the ground like a mad man.