Your Right to Bear Arms is Bullsh*t

[IheartTesla]

Well, I think rural Americans own more guns than urban Americans percentage wise. And I'm pretty sure urban crime is also larger than rural crime. Which leads me to suspect that urbanites are more afraid of crime than rurals.

So it cant be the entire reason. I suspect a lot of it is just the way this nation evolved from the late 1700s until now.

[TerraPrime]

Guns are absolutely great at getting people to leave you alone. Here in Arizona it isn't unusual to go to the grocery store and see a guy with a gun on his hip. Everyone knows the guy isn't going to pull it out, but that guy gets a 10 foot ring of personal space that no one else gets.

Two points.

First, if the general American characteristic is that they want to be left alone, then surely, they do not seem to respect other people's wishes to be left alone, because, really, why else would a man need a handgun to get people to leave him alone? The implication here is that the man carries a gun in part to get people to leave him alone, which means that, yes, people won't leave him alone unless he's got guns? Seems odd to me. Or maybe it's that a gun will make people leave him more alone? And how would that work in a grocery store? What kind of not-being-left-alone can happen there, to begin with? Someone reaching over you to grab a pack of gums? Someone else nods and says hi? Maybe someone puts their cart in the middle of the aisle so that carts from both sides are stalled (I hate that, too)?

Second, if people know that this man is not going to use the gun, then why would they give him more space and privacy? I don't understand it. Surely, the gun works in clearing out a zone is the implied threat that "I have a gun and I will use it, so don't fuck with me"?

[Galactus]

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt

Ah, I think that depends on how you split it up though. If "hunting" and "recreation" are seen as different things for instance.

(note that 46% is pretty close to an actual majority, which was actually more than I expected to see)

Well, I think rural Americans own more guns than urban Americans percentage wise. And I'm pretty sure urban crime is also larger than rural crime. Which leads me to suspect that urbanites are more afraid of crime than rurals.

Don't draw those kinds of casualities easily: How afraid we are of something is only tangentially related to how big a threat it actually is.

"Seem" is an interesting word. Where is this conceptualization coming from?

Mainly from my interactions with americans here on the board and elsewhere. I don't think I've ever heard *anyone* here have one of those "What to do if a burglar comes to kill you in the night" conversations that americans seem willing to start at the drop of a hat.

[Lyanna Stark]

You certainly wouldn't be the first to say it. It's funny. We are a backwards, reactionary, intellectual sinkhole of a nation, and yet we're still the best that this planet's got... the one that everyone else wants to be. (Now, don't go ballistic, I know the truth hurts, but I'm just teasing you) :cheers:

Really? The UK wants to be like the US?

Strange, here I am getting completely different vibes. Astonishingly different, as a matter of fact.

Soulless. So much better than brainless.

Why go for the lack of a soul or a brain when you can easily have both, plus your human dignity intact?

Mammon rules, I guess?

[IheartTesla]

Don't draw those kinds of casualities easily: How afraid we are of something is only tangentially related to how big a threat it actually is.

Mainly from my interactions with americans here on the board and elsewhere. I don't think I've ever heard *anyone* here have one of those "What to do if a burglar comes to kill you in the night" conversations that americans seem willing to start at the drop of a hat.

Wait, you came up with a social theory based on conversations on this board and I should be careful with causalities?

At any rate, some cursory googling seems to suggest fear of crime is roughly the same in both types of communities.

[Annelise]

Ah, I think that depends on how you split it up though. If "hunting" and "recreation" are seen as different things for instance.

If you want to pick at it to make it support your premise, feel free. Saw the same reflected elsewhere, cited from a 2003 book about recreation being cited more than personal defense. *shrugs* I think 43% is a solid figure too, but a comparison with the citizens of other countries reasons for private firearms would be more telling.

Would be interesting to see the self defense cat broken down too.. defending against what precisely? How many folks are concerned about the government, rather than regular ol' crime for instance.

[McCloskey]

Really? The UK wants to be like the US?

Strange, here I am getting completely different vibes. Astonishingly different, as a matter of fact.

The UK has its hands full trying to be like the UK

[Shryke]

Wait, you came up with a social theory based on conversations on this board and I should be careful with causalities?

Well, I wouldn't call it in any way conclusive, but Americans are the only ones in my experience who use "self-defence" or "opposing tyranny" or anything like that to explain their need for guns.

[Hereward]

If Americans want to be left alone so much, why do they seem so keen to engage perfect strangers, casual acquaintances and random customers in idle chit chat? Would not the English method of totally ignoring everyone you aren't either related to, currently sleeping with or intending to get drunk with be so much easier?

No to guns, yes to icy disdain. :cheers:

[CiaranAnnrach]

@Raidne,

I have friends in Texas, who don't do the Yankee-hating which you seem to assert is prevalent there. Now I personally will make some Yankee-hating comments to my friends up here, but those are all in jest, because they know I'm from the South and they were born and raised locally in Wisconsin.

@Rest of Board

Regardless, two evils don't cancel each other out. For a board that largely condemns bigots and racism, I'm surprised and slightly appalled at the overwhelmingly condemning comments made by a rather large bulk of the forum here. Yeah, your comments may accurately describe a small portion of the population, but that doesn't excuse your use of a broad brush and painting the whole country red with your criticism.

That being said, yeah, this country is fucked up in a lot of ways. If I was given the chance to get up and move across the world, I probably would take it, depending on where it was. As far as gun control goes, yeah, I feel there needs to be some control, but banning guns outright is not the answer. And I speak primarily from a hunting point of view, so I'm referring to rifles and shotguns. Handguns? Well, I'll let Tormund argue that, he's far better at pressing the point than myself.

Oh, and while I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought unicorn steaks would be awesome, I'm somewhat disturbed that Blauer was the only one to point that out to date. I'm not sure what that says about me, but it can't be good. (I kid, Blauer.)

[McCloskey]

I am thinking about getting a gun. The only thing preventing it is that Massachusetts has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. You need to pass a 1 hour safety class, pick up an application at a police station, have a background check, and pay a fee. Plus there are different classes of gun licenses so there can be additional steps the more powerful the gun. Kind of a pain in the ass but I think pretty reasonable. Still annoying enough to keep me from already owning though....

Now the main reason I have been thinking about getting some sort of firearm is because its my Right as an American citizen. I may not even by ammo for it and it will probably sit unused in my closet (barring a zombie attack) but thats pretty much why I'm gonna get one. I believe in excercising all of your rights and this is a big one. Not owning a gun is like not voting in my mind. Secondary reasons could be self defence and/or recreation. I'm not afraid of being robbed or attacked (excepting the aformentioned zombies) but it would be good to know if it ever happend I could defend myself. As for recreation, maybe a trip or two to the firing range but otherwise I'm not that into shooting.

[CiaranAnnrach]

If Americans want to be left alone so much, why do they seem so keen to engage perfect strangers, casual acquaintances and random customers in idle chit chat? Would not the English method of totally ignoring everyone you aren't either related to, currently sleeping with or intending to get drunk with be so much easier?

No to guns, yes to icy disdain. :cheers:

As an American, I generally do, except for when they decide to start the chit chat themselves. My desire to not appear as an insensitive prick to people (read: ego) is greater than my desire to be left the hell alone by strangers. (Unless they are hot single girls.)

[CiaranAnnrach]

I am thinking about getting a gun. The only thing preventing it is that Massachusetts has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. You need to pass a 1 hour safety class, pick up an application at a police station, have a background check, and pay a fee. Plus there are different classes of gun licenses so there can be additional steps the more powerful the gun. Kind of a pain in the ass but I think pretty reasonable. Still annoying enough to keep me from already owning though....

Now the main reason I have been thinking about getting some sort of firearm is because its my Right as an American citizen. I may not even by ammo for it and it will probably sit unused in my closet (barring a zombie attack) but thats pretty much why I'm gonna get one. I believe in excercising all of your rights and this is a big one. Not owning a gun is like not voting in my mind. Secondary reasons could be self defence and/or recreation. I'm not afraid of being robbed or attacked (excepting the aformentioned zombies) but it would be good to know if it ever happend I could defend myself. As for recreation, maybe a trip or two to the firing range but otherwise I'm not that into shooting.

You'll need the ammo for the zombie attack, and lots of it. (Could preparing for the zombie apocalypse be a reasonable excuse for stockpiling ammunition?) Also, get a sword. Machete or katana or something, because remember, blades don't need reloading. You'll be glad you did when the zombies attack.

[Annelise]

If Americans want to be left alone so much, why do they seem so keen to engage perfect strangers, casual acquaintances and random customers in idle chit chat? Would not the English method of totally ignoring everyone you aren't either related to, currently sleeping with or intending to get drunk with be so much easier?

:lol: I need never wonder about this again - it's my English ancestry at work!

[Galactus]

If you want to pick at it to make it support your premise, feel free. Saw the same reflected elsewhere, cited from a 2003 book about recreation being cited more than personal defense. *shrugs* I think 43% is a solid figure too, but a comparison with the citizens of other countries reasons for private firearms would be more telling.

Would be interesting to see the self defense cat broken down too.. defending against what precisely? How many folks are concerned about the government, rather than regular ol' crime for instance.

Err, Mormont just showed different stats (or more likely, the SAME stats). Which was my point. If you group everything that isn't self-defence under Recreation it becomes a very different matter than if you break recreation down into different categories (hunting, sports shooting, decoration etc.)

My comment was that I actually expected the self-defence category to be smaller. Having close to 50% owning guns for self-defence is pretty frightening.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I am thinking about getting a gun. The only thing preventing it is that Massachusetts has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. You need to pass a 1 hour safety class, pick up an application at a police station, have a background check, and pay a fee. Plus there are different classes of gun licenses so there can be additional steps the more powerful the gun. Kind of a pain in the ass but I think pretty reasonable. Still annoying enough to keep me from already owning though....

Save time and money. Drive to Vermont to buy a gun. They have the loosest gun control in the country. Oddly enough, they are one of (I think) 3 states where a majority of murders are commited with something other than a gun.

[DanteGabriel]

:lol: I need never wonder about this again - it's my English ancestry at work!

Anecdotally, it varies in the US by region as well. My New England friends, invariably, complain or remark on the willingness of total strangers to engage them in conversation when they visit the West Coast, and the West Coasters visiting me here often remark upon the unfriendliness of New Englanders. Maybe some of the reserved nature of British folk has remained in the cultural DNA of New England.

[Annelise]

Err, Mormont just showed different stats (or more likely, the SAME stats). Which was my point. If you group everything that isn't self-defence under Recreation it becomes a very different matter than if you break recreation down into different categories (hunting, sports shooting, decoration etc.)

My comment was that I actually expected the self-defence category to be smaller. Having close to 50% owning guns for self-defence is pretty frightening.

If you like. This was your initial assertion:

I don't have the statistics with me, but IIRC, isn't the most common reason for owning a gun in the US self-defence?

Your prerogative to procede as you are, but don't mistake it as convincing. It's not that I'm set against your original assertion, incidently, I'm just finding you lazy regarding it. YMMV.

[Swordfish]

You'll need the ammo for the zombie attack, and lots of it. (Could preparing for the zombie apocalypse be a reasonable excuse for stockpiling ammunition?) Also, get a sword. Machete or katana or something, because remember, blades don't need reloading. You'll be glad you did when the zombies attack.

Chainsaw FTW.....

[CiaranAnnrach]

Chainsaw FTW.....

Chainsaw is a very good pick for those times when you need to deal with a horde of zombies all at once. However, it is impractical when dealing with small groups of zombies, and particularly lone zombies, simply because you will run out of gas entirely too quickly. The zombie-to-gas ratio is too low to make it worthwhile. I guess I should also add, blades don't need refueling either.

The problem is, however, nullified if someone figures out a way to make bio-zombie-diesel out of your freshly killed zombies. We should begin research on this immediately.