Exercise & Fitness IV

[lokisnow]

Eh, I'm no doctor.

Ztem, low weight, high reps is good for absolutely nothing.

iirc, Bruce Lee, and his body, disagrees with you.

[Gilgamesh]

I've always thought that people's philosophies for working out/exercising are more interesting than the technicalities of the programs themselves.

For example, I've never wanted bulk - it doesn't fit into to "body identity" that I want to pursue. With reference to the post immediately above, I tend to think that "organic" or bodyweight exercises are generally more valuable than doing weights, even though I do both. There's something about mastering your own bodyweight through an exercise like pull-ups to which bicep curls just can't compare, IMO. Same for one-legged squats etc. Hence I would tend to have more respect for a climber's physique than a body-builder's, even though both work damn hard, the former just seems... More practical?

Part of my *problem*, if you can call it that, is that I like running, road cycling, swimming, martial arts, working out and any number of other activites. All of which tend to develop your body in different directions. Ultimately I want to be in the best shape for my martial arts whilst still being able to go out on regular long road rides wearing my lovely lycra lol, or other sports like..badminton.

What's the personal rationale in trying to build bulk?

[lokisnow]

What's the personal rationale in trying to build bulk?

I think there are a lot of reasons, personal perception of one's own sex appeal being part of it with a lot of other psychological factors about competing with yourself and constantly improving also thrown in.

I would just like to not be fat anymore, and lifting weights adds muscle which burns more calories. I don't want to be fat and heavily muscled though, like a lot of the guys I see in the gym. I'll probably go on a cutting routine after my twelve weeks of heavy lifting are up.

[Stego]

iirc, Bruce Lee, and his body, disagrees with you.

Bruce Lee. Sigh.

Motivating man. Brilliant in many ways. However, he used weight training and dynamic tension.

That said, he was never a strong man. Strong for his size? Sure. Whatever. Tallest midget. Great martial artist. At his biggest and strongest, there are 25 kids or more in just about any high school in the country that are stronger. I certainly am far stronger than he ever was. And I'm not very strong.

ETA: Bruce Lee was 5'7, 125lbs. Just to give folks an idea.

[cjfshaw]

I've always thought that people's philosophies for working out/exercising are more interesting than the technicalities of the programs themselves.

For example, I've never wanted bulk - it doesn't fit into to "body identity" that I want to pursue. With reference to the post immediately above, I tend to think that "organic" or bodyweight exercises are generally more valuable than doing weights, even though I do both. There's something about mastering your own bodyweight through an exercise like pull-ups to which bicep curls just can't compare, IMO. Same for one-legged squats etc. Hence I would tend to have more respect for a climber's physique than a body-builder's, even though both work damn hard, the former just seems... More practical?

Part of my *problem*, if you can call it that, is that I like running, road cycling, swimming, martial arts, working out and any number of other activites. All of which tend to develop your body in different directions. Ultimately I want to be in the best shape for my martial arts whilst still being able to go out on regular long road rides wearing my lovely lycra lol, or other sports like..badminton.

What's the personal rationale in trying to build bulk?

Compleeeeeetely agrreeeeeeeeee.

In reference to the bruce lee comment, I believe that when it came to things like benching and deadlifts he did low reps/high weight, but for things like his ab workouts he did tons of strength holds and sit-ups. Then again I know there are tons of misinformed sources on his workouts, so we could both be totally off.

Also, I second that last comment of yours locke, lol.

And finally, in reference to the leg press thing. I always thought of the leg press as a good way to work out your legs and just your legs, and thought that the squats/deadlifts didn't let you lift as much because of the way they included your lower back, a weaker muscle, in the lift.

Personally, I always found deadlifts harder than squats, don't know why. I may be doing some squats/deadlifts tonight if I'm not too tired from sprints.

[Stego]

Gilgamesh,

Men are supposed to be strong and defend the family and the herd. It's that intrinsic.

I have a really hard time understanding men who do not feel this way. Your 'body image?' Dude, you named yourself Gilgamesh.

ETA: Folks say that it gets to be too much testosterone in here sometimes. I often feel like I am drowning in estrogen in these threads.

[Angalin]

I had awesome arms back then. Not as good as Madonna's, but still, damn fine!

Madonna's arms are too gristly, so yours were probably better. :)

If one is training to row, for instance, one needs to row to train the slow twitch muscles needed for rowing. And row for a long time. Yay rowing. Yay. Light (for the individual) weight, high rep weightlifting will not be a suitable substitute. There is a reason rowers row and runners run.

Rowers do a lot more than just rowing. I lived in blissful ignorance of burpees until I took up rowing. :D Seriously, though, they train every which way from Sunday and international-calibre heavyweight rowers are incredibly strong without being muscle-bound. (I exclude lightweight rowers because they can't build muscle indefinitely.) A big reason for me to get back into shape is so I can get back on the water in 2010 or 2011, years after giving it up due to knee injuries.

Haven't started yet on needle's running program, but am digging a wheelbarrow full of weeds out of the garden daily. You wouldn't know it by looking at the garden, though. :(

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Madonna's arms are too gristly, so yours were probably better. :)

Rowers do a lot more than just rowing. I lived in blissful ignorance of burpees until I took up rowing. :D Seriously, though, they train every which way from Sunday and international-calibre heavyweight rowers are incredibly strong without being muscle-bound. (I exclude lightweight rowers because they can't build muscle indefinitely.) A big reason for me to get back into shape is so I can get back on the water in 2010 or 2011, years after giving it up due to knee injuries.

Haven't started yet on needle's running program, but am digging a wheelbarrow full of weeds out of the garden daily. You wouldn't know it by looking at the garden, though. :(

:lol: I do my weeding, doing squats instead of kneeling. It's not just because I don't want to get my knees dirty or have buggies crawl on me either. ;)

[Angalin]

:lol: I do my weeding, doing squats instead of kneeling. It's not just because I don't want to get my knees dirty or have buggies crawl on me either. ;)

:) I do too, alternating that with turning over heavy clay soil to loosen up more weeds. I try to alternate sides for digging, too. It may not be much by Stego's standards, but right now going to the gym is not on my radar and there are fewer weeds. :thumbsup:

[Liffguard]

For example, I've never wanted bulk - it doesn't fit into to "body identity" that I want to pursue. With reference to the post immediately above, I tend to think that "organic" or bodyweight exercises are generally more valuable than doing weights, even though I do both. There's something about mastering your own bodyweight through an exercise like pull-ups to which bicep curls just can't compare, IMO. Same for one-legged squats etc. Hence I would tend to have more respect for a climber's physique than a body-builder's, even though both work damn hard, the former just seems... More practical?

The purpose of weightlifting isn't primarily to build "bulk." Some people (most people?) do lift weights for cosmetic reasons, purely to look big and ripped. However, in my mind the purpose of weightlifting is to build strength. There is no sport where lean, functional strength is not an asset. None. There is no aspect of everyday life where lean, functional strength is not an asset. None. (Okay, that's an exageration, but there are no aspects where strength is a liability). Weightlifting, done properly, with good technique, with appropriate weight, through full ranges of motion, has no downside. It will make you stronger, faster, leaner, more agile and more flexible. Your reference to pull-ups and bicep curls is also somewhat missing the mark. Pull-ups are a part of any decent weightlifting routine. Curls are superfluous. Deadlifts, squats, bench press, overhead press, rows, clean & jerks, snatches, pull-ups. These are the sort of exercises that help build athletes.

I'd also be willing to bet that the best climbers in the world lift weights. So do the best sprinters, martial artists, golfers, tennis players, footballers, cyclists and practically any other sport you care to name. Bodybuilders do work damn hard but they are a very niche aspect of weightlifting as a whole. They do not represent the aspirations of even close to a majority of the athletes who lift.

[Mudguard]

Went on another hike this past weekend, but this time with a group of hardcore hikers. Generally, I've been hiking solo, but I've finally gotten in good enough shape to keep up with this group. We did the San Gorgonio 9 Peak Challenge, plus an additional two peaks, for a total of 11 peaks in one day. Here are the peaks, in the order that we climbed them:

Dobbs Peak 10,469'

East Dobbs Peak 10,510'

San Gorgonio Mt. 11,502'

Jepson Peak 11,205'

Little Charlton Peak 10,696'

Charlton Peak 10,806'

Alto Diablo 10,563'

Shields Peak 10,701'

Anderson Peak 10,864'

San Bernadino Peak East 10,691'

San Bernadino Peak 10,649

9 people started the hike. 2 bailed after 6 peaks. 4 more bailed after doing 9 peaks. So just 3 finished the whole thing. I gutted it out and finished all 11 because I didn't want to have to come back later to try it again. It was brutal. 21 miles and about 8700 feet elevation gain throughout the hike. The mileage and elevation gain by itself wasn't that bad, but the altitude made it much more difficult. After we hit the first peak, we stayed above 10,000 feet until we finished the 11th peak and started the descent, so for about 12 miles, and the 8 hours or so that it took to cover those 12 miles, we were above 10,000 feet. Probably the hardest hike I've done so far.

[zollo]

Nice one, Mudguard! Sounds like a great hike (I hope you did that whilst doing squats otherwise Stego might not approve :P ). Took any photos?

Just did 3.5 km in 15 minutes (at an average height asl of 14-17m ... I looked it up), which is not bad at all, more so as I have not done much for months due to barely being home and / or working at crazy times (no such thing as 8 hour work days in the wildlife business). Pleased with that, though I will be feeling that one tomorrow.

[Kat]

Congrats Mudguard. :) Again I'm jealous that you have actual peaks around to hike on. NorCal is not so great for that; what we call mountains are somewhat dinky, and not particularly close to each other.

[Gilgamesh]

I have a really hard time understanding men who do not feel this way. Your 'body image?' Dude, you named yourself Gilgamesh.

Lol! You got me there. What I would say, though, is that you don't have to be overtly muscle-bound to be tough, hard, badass, whatever you want to call it. In fact (and I refer to that barbarian of a man, Logen Ninefingers) if you can get them to underestimate you, so much the better

. The guys at my gym who do MMA do tend to be very "chunky" looking (though to me it looks to be more corpulence than solid muscle), but they don't train for a "real" fight, in the sense that it's one to one, there are rules, and you can't run away. Personally I think if you can do the latter it's generally for the best, even though I love boxing sparring and all that jazz. Why take a chance of a lucky punch and cracking your head open on the pavement?

However, in my mind the purpose of weightlifting is to build strength. There is no sport where lean, functional strength is not an asset

I agree. But it's lean muscle mass that I've always pursued, and there a huge amount of guys out there who simply want to "look big". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I personally don't see the point and think it's more cosmetic. Some people would say I have comparatively big arms, but it's a side effect of my other training goals rather than an end in itself. Sure, compound exercises are better, but the point I was making is that I simply prefer the idea of being able to do a triple-clap press up or one-armed pull up rather than being able to squat a baby elephant or bench press a hummer.

The point I'm trying to ask is why would you pursue that form of absolute strength (ie the maximum possible deadlift) rather than something that would make you more explosive or in control of your body? Clearly lots of people do it, but lean strength has always attracted me more. Kick harder, punch stronger.

I love walking too, apart from the blistered feet. Which brings me to a different topic - mountaineering? Has anyone tried it at altitude? It's horrible lol.

[Stego]

Nice one, Mudguard! Sounds like a great hike (I hope you did that whilst doing squats otherwise Stego might not approve :P ). Took any photos?

No, there's no need to lift weights when you climb mountains.

You did have a loaded rifle and 100+ lb pack though, right? Otherwise....bah. Kid stuff.

[cjfshaw]

Gah, I hate hills, gotta run hills later tonight, I don't think I could ever do more than one mountain. Hiking is hardcore. The only time I hiked up a mountain was in the summertime in Arizona, and that was enough for me.

[Stego]

but lean strength has always attracted me more. Kick harder, punch stronger.

Lean strength would be something like Bruce Lee, right? And 'useless bulk' would be Brock Lesnar?

Gilgamesh, I've found that skinny, weak guys do body exercises because they are afraid of doing weight exercises in front of men who are not weak. And those 5% body fat, 5% muscle milquetoasts also make comments about how muscular guys are fat, what with their 12% body fat and all. It's common around here, and it's getting old.

[Liffguard]

The point I'm trying to ask is why would you pursue that form of absolute strength (ie the maximum possible deadlift) rather than something that would make you more explosive or in control of your body?

Deadlifts will make you more explosive and in more control of your body. The amount of technique and body-awareness that goes into a perfect deadlift is unreal. This is even more true for the olympic lifts which are the very definition of explosiveness and body-control.

Clearly lots of people do it, but lean strength has always attracted me more. Kick harder, punch stronger.

What makes you think that deadlifts won't build lean strength?

[Jon Targaryen]

Lower body and abs today. Leg extensions with one set of leg press. Lying leg curls with one set of straight-leg deadlifts. Seated calf raises and one set of standing calf raises. Decline sit-ups (these are WAY harder than floor crunches) with one set of floor crunches. Like Lany, I'm following Body for Life. I got interrupted twice today so I took more rest and time than I wanted to.

[Gilgamesh]

I climbed up one to 19,000 ft, not that it was at all technical, but it was damn nasty. I could never get my heart rate down, the snow kept on slipping back every time you try and climb higher, and coming down was knackering. Then you get the crazy guys who want to do K2 where the mortality rate is something ridiculous and death is almost completely arbitrary.

Still, I might do something like it again given the chance. Just 'cos it's there...