So, I hate Daenerys

[Errant Bard]

My heart broke for her, in the scene where she smothered her sun and stars with a pillow. Tell me that didn't move you?

Same as Daemrion, it did not. Sure, it is sad to lose a loved one, but she is not special in that respect: plenty of other people have done it; actually about all the other PoVs went through it. The thing is, for Dany, it was her own fault in the first place, though stemming from good intentions, and having the occasion of offering mercy actually softens the loss.

This being said, the main reason I don't feel for her is that I can't really find her character believable on the same level as the others, so it's more the mechanics of the writing that jump out, as explained thereafter:

This is where I get confused. Either Daenerys is OVERPOWERED and it's totes unfair that she gets dragons because they give her a big advantage and she is too good at politics for her age OR she is woefully unprepared and would get eaten alive by other players in Westeros and only wins because her enemies are so weak. Pick one!

[...]

She has learned from every obstacle she has had to overcome, and will continue to learn until she perhaps can be a better player.

This is the problem, don't you see? That she has this nice difficulty ladder for the things she has to overcome, and is handed power disproportionately. The critique isn't so much about her, as the girl is alright, out of context, as it is about the writing of the setting and of her acquisition of power.

This is not a question of being overpowered, it's a question of always being overpowered in contrast to the enemies given to her by the narrative, and following that, it's really a question of her hurdles being underpowered compared to the rest of the world, common sense, and considering the power upgrade those encounters yield.

Think about it, the progression is thus:

1. Start as an exile, abused by brother, heir to Westeros
   
2. Trade brother for barbarian overlord, gain knight and some rank in the process
   
3. Once sufficiently established in the commanding rank, lose barbarian overlord and children, without any drawback (other than some cheap emotional drama - stockholm syndrome at its best). Remember, losing those things is good for a hero character, they would have been chains slowing her down, preventing her from ever leaving the East. Stays alive and free.
   
4. Once settled enough, and needing more power, has people come and offer her knowledge, gold and fame for nothing but watching dragons. No violence occuring, no backstabbing, only some childish trickery
   
5. Needing more power, steals an army from desperately naive slavers. Army that happens to be able to do nothing but follow her.
   
6. Needing yet more power, decides to invade neighboring stuff. They happen to be weak city-states
   

Now, at any of these steps, if you replace her antagonists with either good guys (like Robb, Ned, Robert, Jon) or bad ones (Tywin, Tyrion, Roose, Walder Frey, Littlefinger...), the outcomes tend to be way less glamorous. She simply dies with Drogo or is kept in chains, her dragons get killed or stolen or at least hunted, she doesn't get anything in Qarth, she is killed in Astapor as her scheme fails, she provokes a coalition of half Westeros to band against her the first time she tries to conquer a city, and the towns don't have convenient backdoors (think storm's end, dragonstone, riverrun, king's landign sieges), and in either case she ends up looking WAY less "perfect" because it's not the same thing to burn evulz slavers to death and steal their army than it is to burn Tyrions and steal his mountain clans, or Robb and Northmen, or Renly and Reach armies. Not the same reader reaction... even though, all in all, considering the world, it is those encounters that should happen, not "stupid black hat with gamebreaker robot army"

[JJtheCrow]

Wow, kind of ridiculous to speculate on how Dany would fare in Westeros. She hasn't been there yet.

[nim]

Sure, it is sad to lose a loved one, but she is not special in that respect: plenty of other people have done it; actually about all the other PoVs went through it. The thing is, for Dany, it was her own fault in the first place, though stemming from good intentions, and having the occasion of offering mercy actually softens the loss.

Yea, Dany screwed up by trusting Mirri Maz Duur. But she was also 15, very pregnant, and scared. And unlike other characters, Dany killed Drogo herself. Also unlike other characters, he was ALL that she had left.

I know I can't convince people to start feeling sympathetic, but man, just thinking about that scene makes me misty eyed. There were very few scenes that made me feel emotional. This was one.

Out of curiosity - for those of you who felt nothing when Dany killed Drogo - what were some of the more emotional scenes for you? If any?

[Bronn is God]

Out of curiosity - for those of you who felt nothing when Dany killed Drogo - what were some of the more emotional scenes for you? If any?

Surprisingly, nothing in this series has brought on sadness for me. I was shocked at the death of Ned, shocked at the death of Renly, enraged when Tyrion had to stay in the prison cell, but never sad.

For me, Dany was a character that I felt was forced upon the audience to like, much like Ned (and the Starks in general). I was fist pumping when Ned got it and I will be fist pumping when Tyrion puts a blade through Dany's neck.

[Kalbear]

Going to say it again; you cannot walk into a fire in a moment of sheer delusion and come out alive with the most powerful things in the universe. Its Deus Ex Machina + plot shielding which makes it bad.

Wait, so your problem is that Dany did something magical and prophecied and succeeded?

You are, like, reading the books that contain undead aliens, shadow babies and 800-foot walls of ice, right? Saying this is plot shielding is like saying Jon should have died on the wall because the Wall shouldn't exist and is totally unrealistic. Or Tyrion should have died on the Blackwater because he's a midget and they can't fight worth a damn. Yes, Dany survived a fire no one else on Westeros would have and resurrected Dragons that no one else figured out how to. This is special, and a bit mary-sueish, but it's also a major plot point in the same way that Littlefinger's machinations were. Complaining that Dany shouldn't have been able to do this means that you really just despise the entire series (or at least should for consistency's sake) given that her entire point in the series is to reclaim Westeros; without that moment she's a worthless ex-Khaleesi with no power stranded thousands of miles away. Why even give her a PoV at that point?

She didn't just magically find dragons. They didn't all love her and want to be with her. She had to smother her own husband and sacrifice her unborn child to get them. If that's your definition of a Mary Sue, Mary Sue has a pretty shitty life.

[Faint]

For me, Dany was a character that I felt was forced upon the audience to like, much like Ned (and the Starks in general).

I never felt this at all. I always found that she was supposed to be intentionally unlikeable or at the very least, not particularly endearing. Tyrion and Jon are the characters that are clearly meant and intended to be loved by the readers.

[Bronn is God]

/snip

I dont like any of those elements either. But the thread is about Dany. And psychosis and luck are two different things.

I never felt this at all. I always found that she was supposed to be intentionally unlikeable or at the very least, not particularly endearing. Tyrion and Jon are the characters that are clearly meant and intended to be loved by the readers.

I actually hated Tyrion until his capture (at which point I sympathized) and didnt like him until CoK. I started disliking Jon when he started beating up the other kids for making fun of Sam.

I was always under the impression that Dany was supposed to be liked. Abused and exiled princess forced to marry a Horse lord for her brothers pipe dream; and after a constant stream of tragedy acquires uber cool dregons and is now a bad ass queen.

On the contrary, I believe characters like Littlefinger and Walder "The bad ass" Frey (obviously) to be characters we are forced to dislike. But you cant really know with GRRM can you.

[Kalbear]

I dont like any of those elements either. But the thread is about Dany. And psychosis and luck are two different things

So are prophecy and magic. Again, if you don't like the fantastical elements of a fantasy, I don't know what to tell you. If you're saying that it's a plot shield that a magical spell hinted at early on in the book actually works later, this is probably not the series for you.

I was always under the impression that Dany was supposed to be liked. Abused and exiled princess forced to marry a Horse lord for her brothers pipe dream; and after a constant stream of tragedy acquires uber cool dregons and is now a bad ass queen.

Except she's not. She has her moments, but she's also often quite stupid and makes bad decisions and is often quite cruel to others. She is that archetype, but like all of Martin's characters that's just where she starts, not where she ends. Jon is the "destined warrior with the secret Noble past", Tyrion's the 'clever smart guy who can win the day with brains instead of brawn', Ned is the 'noble warrior who uses honor and duty as his way to win'.

And that all gets turned on its head, often with horrible results and consequences to the characters.

Littlefinger is one of GRRM's favorite characters and is one of the readership's favorite characters. I don't think GRRM tries to force anyone to like anyone in particular. I think his goal has always been to make characters that are real. If you like them or dislike them, do so on what they actually are and not what you think they should be. At least most of the time.

If anything this is why I'm so disappointed with Cersei - because after looking so promising through ASOS GRRM basically said 'no, you ARE supposed to hate her ass' and made her as unsympathetic as he could. And he did so because a friend of mine thought she was awesome and he couldn't really understand that. I blame Julie. But yeah, of all his characters she's the one that became most caricaturish. Dany? Not so much.

[Timbits]

I don't really like or dislike Daenerys, she leaves a weak impression on me. Having said that, I felt a lot for her in the first book because she was weak, helpless, pretty much raped during certain parts, and abused by her brother. But now she's too queenie and self-righteous for my taste. I guess I liked her better when she was little ms.victim more than little ms.perfect.

[Bronn is God]

So are prophecy and magic. Again, if you don't like the fantastical elements of a fantasy, I don't know what to tell you. If you're saying that it's a plot shield that a magical spell hinted at early on in the book actually works later, this is probably not the series for you

I dont like the fantastical elements. Not at all. And I do say, calm down Ser. Just because I do not like 1 element does not mean it is not for me.

Littlefinger is one of GRRM's favorite characters and is one of the readership's favorite characters. I don't think GRRM tries to force anyone to like anyone in particular. I think his goal has always been to make characters that are real. If you like them or dislike them, do so on what they actually are and not what you think they should be. At least most of the time.

I thought most people hated Littlefinger :blushing:.

[Kalbear]

I dont like the fantastical elements. Not at all. And I do say, calm down Ser. Just because I do not like 1 element does not mean it is not for me.

You're probably going to really hate the next few books, then. Chances are there's gonna be a whole hell of a lot more fantastical elements coming forward, what with prophecy, dragons, Others and the like all coming together. Good luck with that.

I thought most people hated Littlefinger

Nope. Very few people actively hate Littlefinger, I suspect. Littlefinger (at least on these boards) rivals Tyrion and Arya for popular characters, and some have gone so far as to not only say how awesome he is but to claim that everything Littlefinger has done has been totally kosher and justified.

[nim]

Nope. Very few people actively hate Littlefinger, I suspect. Littlefinger (at least on these boards) rivals Tyrion and Arya for popular characters, and some have gone so far as to not only say how awesome he is but to claim that everything Littlefinger has done has been totally kosher and justified.

I don't hate Littlefinger, but I don't love him either. He totally intrigues me though. How cool would it be to get a Littlefinger POV??

[Bronn is God]

You're probably going to really hate the next few books, then. Chances are there's gonna be a whole hell of a lot more fantastical elements coming forward, what with prophecy, dragons, Others and the like all coming together. Good luck with that.

Yep. Thats why I am hoping for a God-like ending i.e. everyone dies to the hands of the Others.

I absolutely love the Wot5K segment (first three books) and I love hearing about the War of the Usurper, but all the Dragons, others, prophecies, un-, flaming swords, etc. I have very little love for.

I am reading now just to see how it pans out, and hope I can enjoy it.

[Daemrion]

Out of curiosity - for those of you who felt nothing when Dany killed Drogo - what were some of the more emotional scenes for you? If any?

I don't think I've really felt emotional about any of the scenes so far. Mainly because I think that I'm so concentrated on getting through the story. But I think if you can guess what is going to happen it lessens the emotional impact. I think that's why I didn't feel anything for Dany when she lost Drogo. It was expected.

She had to smother her own husband and sacrifice her unborn child to get them. If that's your definition of a Mary Sue, Mary Sue has a pretty shitty life.

The plot was totally set up that she had to do it to advance on her merry way and get the dragons. Even killing her husband and unborn child doesn't seem to be a wrong decision in the story because it helps her get dragons (which probably will end up somehow saving the world from the Others). It's like being set up that Dany is so selfless that she will sacrifice her kid and husband to save the world.

[Rakka]

They were hardly ever her decisions - she lost her child because she got dragged into the tent when MMD was doing her shadow zombie thing, and while killing Drogo was her decision, what life was there left in him to take? There was nothing that made him Drogo present in there anymore.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

They were hardly ever her decisions - she lost her child because she got dragged into the tent when MMD was doing her shadow zombie thing, and while killing Drogo was her decision, what life was there left in him to take? There was nothing that made him Drogo present in there anymore.

She lost Rhaego the moment she agreed to MMD's "sacrifice" to save Drogo. Dany knew in her heart of hearts that the horse's blood was not the true price.... So I do think it was her decision. And indeed choosing to kill Drogo was all the more painful because of what a zombie he now was, and the fact that Dany would now be responsible for the death of her son and husband (although to be honest I think Drogo would have died the first time whether Dany had put him under the care of MMD or not - the wound was festering).

[Maia]

She lost Rhaego the moment she agreed to MMD's "sacrifice" to save Drogo. Dany knew in her heart of hearts that the horse's blood was not the true price.... So I do think it was her decision.

Nope. MMD tried to convince her that it was, just to twist the knife, but it was not true.

Anyway, IMHO a lot of stuff in Robb's Jon's and even Tyrion's story-lines (his battle-prowess and strangling abilities) is equally fantastical, people just choose to overlook it.

For me the Mr. Perfect character who is propelled by the plot without having to make any painful decisions and being prevented from making life-changing mistakes by outside intervention, is Jon. And we are clearly manipulated to like him too, not to mention that he is such a comfortable, expected cliche. I don't hate him, though, just find him bland. Tastes, they do vary :).

[evanesco75]

I think all this fuss about DEM is pure bollocks, to be honest. Every bloody story on the planet has some elements of DEM/plot shield. Including religious allegories and myths. It's there for the sake of plot advancement, ffs. Dany isn't the only character either. Someone mentioned the direwolves, and I agree. Bran would be dead if it weren't for Summer, and how propituous is that??

In this genre, I doubt people would enjoy reading tedious struggles of wholly ordinary people as they strive, inch by inch, to better themselves. Hell, Jaime's proficiency with the sword could as easily be suspect; as would Robb's apparent genuis at warfare (of which we had no hint prior to the King In The North episode).

DEM=standard tropes in fiction. Hence, no outrage needed!

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I wouldnt say that Jon didnt have any painful decisions to make. He had to kill Qhorin, he befriended Mance and the wildlings and then there was the whole life changing and very hard experience with Ygrytte. I really dont think there is a single character in the books that gets any gifts for nothing.

Qhorin FORCED Jon to kill him, and even then Ghost had to finish the job.

Ygritte MADE Jon sleep with her. Really. He basically tried to ignore her while having a giant hard-on until she climbed under his sleeping furs.

Jon didn't even have to kill Mance Raydar thanks to Stannis ex machina.

And then Sam elects him LC while he just sits in the corner stewing and practicing at swordplay.

If there's one character that never makes any significant decisions for himself, it is Jon. However, I admit that his decision to join the Night's Watch was a real one (though he does get pretty whiny about it right away).

As for Dany and her supposedly not making decisions... I'm still not convinced on the Drogo thing (I think it was the death of her unborn child Rhaego that was needed to revive Drogo, not the horse). Regardless, Daenerys made many significant decisions thereafter, including: where to lead her khalasar next, how to find food/water/etc once they were lost in the desert, which of the sketchy folks courting her she should trust, choosing to go to the House of the Undying, betraying the Slayers and stealing the unsullied, and sacking Yunkai and Meereen.

Some of these decisions were with the help of advisers and some were her own ideas entirely (or even against the advice she got from others). People seem to interpret those decisions that were made with help as being not real because she had help, while at the same time interpreting those decisions that she makes independently as her being imperious, arrogant, and too smart for her age/upbringing/(dare I say sex?). It's frustrating to me, because I'm not sure what she could do to please you people.

[evanesco75]

MDIND, a BIG FAT WORD to your post. Jon is the single most passive (not to mention luckiest) character in the books. The mere fact that he's got convenient, readymade excuses for killing Qhorin and shagging Ygritte make this an indisputable fact for me.

What's Jon actually lost, till now? Because Dany lost her man, her child and her brother (whom she loved, however prickish).