So, I hate Daenerys

[KyleLitke]

I wouldn't say he was a naive fool.

He was cynical and had a bad feeling about it from the start, and specifically and repeatedly said he didn't want to go and wanted to go back home. He only went because Catelyn pricked his honour and his friendship with Robert (which Ned doubted many a time). He knew he didn't belong, and he knew he wasn't cut out for the politicking of King's Landing.

It's not naive to know your own weaknesses. Sansa was naive. Ned knew what he was in for, and he knew he wasn't ready for it, but once he'd started he couldn't stop.

I think in some ways, Ned was definitely naive. Look at how he acts toward Littlefinger. He treats Littlefinger like garbage the entire time, but then puts everything into trusting him, because for some reason it doesn't even seem to occur to Ned that Littlefinger might turn on him. It's as if Ned naively believes that because he, personally, cares that Stannis is the rightful king, everyone else will agree with him because it's the honorable thing to do.

Telling Cersei was a mistake, but I'm not sure it was done out of being naive. I think he simply felt he was in a better position than her and was giving her an opportunity to leave. But all of his interactions with Littlefinger strike me as a naive man who doesn't believe that someone like Littlefinger would side with the Lannisters, just because "Well, he knows that Joffrey isn't technically the rightful King". As much as he didn't seem to trust Littlefinger throughout most of the book, in the end he absolutely does trust him 100%, by letting him in on the exact plans and by relying on him completely to pull those plans off. Reading it the first time I was thinking there was no way Littlefinger WOULDN'T turn on him in that situation, because most people aren't like Ned, always doing the honorable thing. As much as Ned told himself he knew others weren't as honorable, his actions don't bear that out.

[iamthedave]

I think in some ways, Ned was definitely naive. Look at how he acts toward Littlefinger. He treats Littlefinger like garbage the entire time, but then puts everything into trusting him, because for some reason it doesn't even seem to occur to Ned that Littlefinger might turn on him. It's as if Ned naively believes that because he, personally, cares that Stannis is the rightful king, everyone else will agree with him because it's the honorable thing to do.

Telling Cersei was a mistake, but I'm not sure it was done out of being naive. I think he simply felt he was in a better position than her and was giving her an opportunity to leave. But all of his interactions with Littlefinger strike me as a naive man who doesn't believe that someone like Littlefinger would side with the Lannisters, just because "Well, he knows that Joffrey isn't technically the rightful King". As much as he didn't seem to trust Littlefinger throughout most of the book, in the end he absolutely does trust him 100%, by letting him in on the exact plans and by relying on him completely to pull those plans off. Reading it the first time I was thinking there was no way Littlefinger WOULDN'T turn on him in that situation, because most people aren't like Ned, always doing the honorable thing. As much as Ned told himself he knew others weren't as honorable, his actions don't bear that out.

He trusts Littlefinger because of his prior relationship with Catelyn and that he protects her. No, it doesn't occur to him that Littlefinger will turn on him, because that level of treachery is simply alien to him.

There's a little naivety there, but littlefinger does actually attempt to help him, so he has some reason to trust him. His mistake was believing that Littlefinger cared enough about Catelyn to truly want to help Ned.

He doesn't go in 'eyes wide open' as it were, he knows he's in a nest of vipers, but what option did he have? he had to trust somebody or else give up and wait to die, because he'd already gone in too deep. And let's not forget, it was Sansa that got him killed. Cersei even refers to it in A Clash of Kings, saying it was a lucky break.

If he's naive, it's the basic naivety of the honorable, but he's a whole hell of a lot less naive than someone like Brienne.

If Sansa hadn't completely betrayed her father's confidence, things might have turned out differently.

[Alexia]

And let's not forget, it was Sansa that got him killed.

Actually, it was LF - in addition to Joffrey and Ned himself. Please recall that LF elected to purchase the goldcloaks on behalf of Cersei rather than Ned. Even if Sansa kept her mouth shut, that would not have changed - LF was not going to let Stannis follow through on a previously expressed desire to kill him because Ned had a whim to make Stannis king. Additionally, it is my firm belief that Ned's impromptu execution at the sept by Joffrey was carried out at the instigation of LF who did not want Catelyn to know of his perfidy.

All Sansa did was prevent her and Arya from escaping - and considering Theon's later amorous thoughts and the Bastard of Bolton's eventual victory, that turned out to be quite a fortunate thing for both girls.

KyleLitke, eloquently stated indeed. I entirely agree with your summation of Ned's interactions with LF.

[KyleLitke]

He trusts Littlefinger because of his prior relationship with Catelyn and that he protects her. No, it doesn't occur to him that Littlefinger will turn on him, because that level of treachery is simply alien to him.

But see, that's it exactly. It IS naive. As we would go on to see, that level of treachery is all over the place. And trusting him just because of a relationship he had with Catelyn (in which, by the way, he was so in love with her that he challenged Ned's brother to a duel over her, which doesn't exactly show a wish to keep her current husband alive and well), what, 15-16 years ago, he trusts Littlefinger implicitly? This isn't a "Well, I have to trust someone so I'll reluctantly trust Littlefinger, but keep him in the dark about my main plans" situation here. He lets Littlefinger in on everything (all while complaining about him and treating him terribly) and then makes a move that absolutely requires Littlefinger to succeed.

Look, here's what happens in the pivotal scene where Ned asks for Littlefingers aid. Ned tells Littlefinger that the kids are Jaime's children. Littlefinger suggests Ned allow Joffrey to take the throne. Ned more or less insults Littlefingers honor (we know he has none, but still, you're asking for this guys help). Littlefinger stresses that if Stannis takes over, he's out of a job. He gives Ned his plan, to take the kids and get rid of Stannis. Ned says it's treason, then asks Littlefinger for his help, oh so nicely offering to "try to forget about his treason".

Seriously. That's his offer to Littlefinger. If you help me install Stannis, who in the best case scenario will send you packing back to the Fingers and in the worst will have you killed, I'll make an attempt at forgetting that you should be executed for treason.

Why in the world would Littlefinger NOT turn on him? If I was Littlefinger, I think *I* would have turned on Ned, considering how Ned treats him (deserved or not) and the consequences of Ned succeeding for Littlefinger. And while Ned doesn't know the depths of what Littlefinger was up to, he KNOWS that it is not in Littlefingers best interests to help Ned. Not even a little. It's decidedly against his best interests, and Ned clearly knows this because not only is it obvious, but Littlefinger just flat out told him so. But Ned naively attributes honor to Littlefinger (all while saying he has none) by assuming that a mere promise to Catelyn is enough for Littlefinger to give up everything he has (with no promise of Ned giving him anything in return). That's naive, I don't know what else to call it.

As for Sansa, I disagree. She didn't get him killed. She was the first one who came to Cersei, but she wouldn't have been the last, because Littlefinger would have gone running. Any information Sansa gave her would have been given to her by Littlefinger. There's a very small chance Sansa got herself stuck, because she might have been able to sneak out on the ship before Littlefinger got word to Cersei, but Ned? Ned was screwed the second he confided in Littlefinger.

[neutronicus]

As for Sansa, I disagree. She didn't get him killed. She was the first one who came to Cersei, but she wouldn't have been the last, because Littlefinger would have gone running. Any information Sansa gave her would have been given to her by Littlefinger. There's a very small chance Sansa got herself stuck, because she might have been able to sneak out on the ship before Littlefinger got word to Cersei, but Ned? Ned was screwed the second he confided in Littlefinger.

I agree. Realistically, all Sansa did was get herself and Arya kidnapped.

[iamthedave]

I think it's a different perspective issue. What could Ned have done?

He was dead either way, but to take down Cersei he had to trust someone. He COULD NOT have done it alone, and he would not have been allowed to live. I don't see him as naive simply because he knows he doesn't belong and knows he's not equipped. His trusting Littlefinger was a huge mistake, but he had to trust someone. Varys had no material power, and everyone else was in the pocket of the Lannisters.

Ned was doomed the second he came to Kings Landing, for all that it's said several times he almost ruined everything by several characters (if I remember correctly, Varys, Cersei and Littlefinger all at various times remark that Ned nearly pulled it off, and he did spark the civil war rather effectively).

Besides, might as well call everybody naive; for all that nobody trusts Littlefinger, the guy still gets his way over everyone, even Tyrion who actively hates him. Littlefinger is probably the best politician in the entire series if you measure number of plans versus amount of success. He's the only one I can think of who seems to have a clear run at his goal (I see nothing in the Eyrie that can stop him), whereas everyone else is snarled up or in physical peril. Oops, forgot Dany and Euron Crows' Eye. But she's less a politician and more powered up by Mario's star of invincibility, and his success is dependent on getting some victories (and he's resolutely getting his ass handed to him in the North at least).

Also: You have to bear in mind Littlefinger was planning Joff's assassination. He makes that suggestion because it fits his plans, which Ned knew nothing of (and he of course did not let him in on them).

To me, naivety would be Ned feeling he can play their games and beat them. It's not naivety to simply not have the skillset and instincts needed to survive your circumstances. He could hardly change the habits of a lifetime overnight.

[Alexia]

I think it's a different perspective issue. What could Ned have done?

He was dead either way, but to take down Cersei he had to trust someone.

RENLY!!!

If Ned had listened to Renly and "dishonored Robert's memory by dragging frightened children from their beds in the middle of the night" I actually think he would have been successful. Cersei would not have dared anything if Ned had custody of her children. Renly would have agreed to set Joffrey aside if Ned had told him what he had learned, and through some negotiating Ned and Renly may have agreed to put Stannis on the throne - or heck, Ned may have unbent and agreed that Renly could take power.

The moment Ned turned down Renly, for the reasons he gave, is the moment when I decided he did not deserve to win. Thus I did not cry any tears for him when LF betrayed him or when Joffrey had him beheaded. The man literally dug his own grave, laid down in it, and begged his enemies to do him the favor of ending his existence.

Unlike LF, Renly actually has solid reasons to support Ned. Robert is his brother and he stands in the line of succession. He clearly despises Lannisters and wants to prevent them from gaining control of the Baratheon throne - a goal that Ned shares. Ned should have spent AGOT cultivating a strong alliance with Lord Renly rather than with LF.

[Nukelavee]

Alexia, one thing you need to remember...Ned had NO idea that Robert was doomed, that Varys, Littlefinger, and Cersie all had seperate plans for his downfall and death.

Neither did he know, until he was already over his head, exactly WHAT Jon A was investigating.

So, it never was clear he should have support from anybody but Robert; Ned was investigating his friend's murder, not the threat of a coup.

Plus, Renly? Sure, he should have grabbed those swords, but i doubt Renly came up with the Tyrell plan without some advice from Littlefinger or Varys.

[El-ahrairah]

Everything about her feels too contrived. Not only is she (apparently) impossibly beautiful (incidently, the 'silver hair and purple eyes' description would get you laughed off fanfiction.net)...

I wonder how beautiful she really is. Royal blood tends to attract flatterers, I would venture to say. And remember we've never had a POV character describe her. So she might be rather plainer than we expect.

[Alexia]

Plus, Renly? Sure, he should have grabbed those swords, but i doubt Renly came up with the Tyrell plan without some advice from Littlefinger or Varys.

What makes you say that? First off, given LF's interactions with Ned I doubt he was making any suggestions to Renly. Second off, Renly seems to be quite intelligent, he plainly opposed the Lannisters, and when it was clear the Lannisters would get control he fled. He also craved power, which being part of a regency team for the underaged king would give him. He had a lot to gain from an alliance with Ned and there is no indication that he was being played like Ned was that I recall. I challenge you to come up with evidence to support this claim.

Next, of course Ned needs support from more people than Robert. Robert may be king, just as Obama is president, but as a politician if I go into Washington and decide that I only need an alliance with Obama I will fall flat on my face. Politics is all about alliances and negotiation and if Ned wanted to do his job as Hand he needs allies. If he wants to take on House Lannister, he needs them even more. And in recognition of his need for allies he decided to ally with...LF.

[iamthedave]

Next, of course Ned needs support from more people than Robert. Robert may be king, just as Obama is president, but as a politician if I go into Washington and decide that I only need an alliance with Obama I will fall flat on my face. Politics is all about alliances and negotiation and if Ned wanted to do his job as Hand he needs allies. If he wants to take on House Lannister, he needs them even more. And in recognition of his need for allies he decided to ally with...LF.

Well you say that, but you're not Obama's personal best mate for years and years. And there was plenty of evidence up to Robert's death that he would indeed have listened, had Ned provided some evidence.

[nyshopgirl14]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate Dany (although this thread has seemed to turn into a thread about Ned) but her chapters are pretty dull, imo. I start out with the intention of reading them and then about halfway through I just don't care. I also feel the same way about some of the secondary, more peripheral characters GRRM has added along the way.

I think the other female characters are fantastic for the most part, I just don't give a crap about Dany. Maybe its because she's so far removed from the rest of the action?

[The Blue Bard]

:cheers: JA! Sharapova is like the hottest woman. Ever! Besides female athletes are the ultimate sex-symbols, way more so than those icky anorexic models.

woman athlete = tigress in the sack.

The most successful sporting women I can think of are the Williams sisters. While they have many fine qualities, attractiveness is not one of them. I can think of a hell of a lot more ugly women tennis players (Mauresmo, Clijsters, Navortilova) than attractive

[FatR]

I think it's a different perspective issue. What could Ned have done?

He was dead either way, but to take down Cersei he had to trust someone. He COULD NOT have done it alone, and he would not have been allowed to live. I don't see him as naive simply because he knows he doesn't belong and knows he's not equipped. His trusting Littlefinger was a huge mistake, but he had to trust someone. Varys had no material power, and everyone else was in the pocket of the Lannisters.

Um, what? Odds were rather stacked against Lannisters. They had no one with power in their pocket. LF and Varys were out for themselves, with the former directly setting Lannisters up. Pycelle's angle is not entirely clear, but most likely he was LF's crony, as he both helped Jon Arryn to die and contributed to leaking hints of Cersei's incest to Ned. Renly intended to screw Lannisters over. Stannis wanted to do so, but chickened out. Everyone in the actual government of Westeros saw Lannisters as tools to instigate the civil war at best. Except Selmy, who simply had no reason to like them. As about retainers and soldiers, Lannisters had only Cersei's honor guard in the capital. Outnumbered by men Renly could have mustered at least 2:1. Cersei's desperation move succeeded only because Eddard stalwartly refused to take any of the sensible options presented to him by the key players.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

I am just totally different I guess as I find Dany's arc to be one of the more compelling in the series. Her rise from a perpetual victim to a khaleesi and potential queen while absurd at times is pretty moving stuff. She has an air of entitlement to be sure, but I would imagine that most individuals that go on to conquer a world or whatever have a rather drastically different sense of destiny than do most of us. I am sure that Alexander the Great saw himself in a rather grandiose sense, but was he wrong to do so? Of course, GRRM could be setting her up as a Raskolnikov but I doubt it.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

DEAR GOD why is this thread back from the dead, why....?

[archer1949]

After perusing this thread and others, I think it's safe to say that this topic has been beaten to the ground.

I will just add that if Daenerys was supposed to be Martin's attempt as creating an archtypical "pretty perfect Disney Princess", he failed miserably. She's no Mary Sue, either.

But, she remains, despite her myriad flaws and shortcomings, my favorite character in the series and one of my favorite in this entire genre.

"All kneel for Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khaleesi of Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Shackles and Mother of Dragons!"

[u46cm8]

Oh how can not stand dany some of her chapters are ok for filling in the history and all.

But really every 10 lines you read '' I am Daenerys Sbourn blood of blahblahblah stand aside and let me take a piss''

For once just die or the dragons freeze or drown.

The ever beautiful deceptive egotistical silver haired trap.

When I see her chapter I wounder why she is there at all.

[Ghost714]

I guess it all comes down to the person, which is great that some people love certain characters, and some hate certain characters. I personally love Daenerys and she is in my top five of favorite characters. Normally I read the book straight through, but only with Dany's chapters have I ever skipped others to read hers straight through all at once, then I would go back and read everything straight through how it is written.

I don't understand a lot of the hate for Dany, and I especially don't understand people who say they just skip her chapters (meaning they don't bother reading them at all). To me, every word of every page is worth reading, and I enjoy every letter of it, but also, I feel that it is all put in there for a reason. Even if I hated a character, which I don't hate any of them, but if I did, I would never even think about skipping through anything, and I'm not talking about reading a characters chapters straight through, I mean when people skip chapters and don't ever go back and read them, because they don't like that character etc. I am now on my 5th reread, including the three D&E short stories, and I have learned that every chapter is meaningful in one way or another, and it is all there for a reason. Out of respect alone though, I could never even consider skipping/skimming through the books, GRRM has put so much hard work into these books for his fans to enjoy, and I know a lot of readers feel like the author owes them something, but that's just not true, and I consider it terribly disrespectful when I hear about people skipping through sections of the book(without ever going back to read them... I understand wanting to skip to a certain character if your dying to know what happened, etc.. But to just not read a chapter because you think it's pointless...I don't agree with that). Same goes for when people think whole sections, and storylines should have been removed from the books. That is just something I don't understand.

As to Dany, I don't consider her plot to be contrived or anything, a lot of bad things happen to these characters, and it would be ridiculously unrealistic if nothing good or lucky ever happened to them. People do get lucky sometimes, wether they deserve to or not. When Catelyn found Tyrion in the Inn and took him captive, I would not say that was contrived, I would say it was lucky for Catelyn, and unlucky for Tyrion. Same goes for the Starks getting the direwolves, just lucky, where is the fun in looking at everything in terms of "plot gifts", or being "contrived", I just don't understand how the books can be enjoyable for anyone who reads that way...and yes I do understand that there needs to be a degree of realism, even for a fantasy series, but I think GRRM does an amazing job at incorporating these things in to the story.

Now I know I'm not going to change any minds about this, but I can't not say something about it. In this thread many people have said that Dany would have nothing without the dragons, I do not agree with this. Had Dany been given three hatched dragons, instead of three pretty rocks that used to be dragon eggs, then I might understand a little more, when people say Dany wouldn't have anything if not for the dragons. However Dany was the one who was smart enough to take advantage of the blood magic done by Mirri Mazz Durr, which was the main factor in the hatching of the dragon eggs. Dany risked her own life on faith, that what she was doing would work, so it's not like Dany just got lucky and picked the right door to open. Some people might call that madness, I personally think it was brave and brilliant. So yes some of Dany's success could be credited to having dragons, but Dany gets the credit for the dragons, which ultimately means every bennefit that comes with them. Still though, it's not like Dany was given the Unsullied just because she had dragons, the dragons made it possible, but it was Dany's wits that allowed her to use the Slave Masters greed against themselves. Dany still had to risk the life of herself, and all of her people, when she decided to steal the Unsullied. For the record, it doesn't mean that the Slavers are retarded, it just means that Dany was smart, she was smart enough to make them an offer that they couldn't refuse, which then allowed them to be tricked, Tyrion would have been able to do the same thing, and had he done that instead of Dany, nobody would be saying that it was just because the Slavers were dumb.

Dany's dragons didn't win her Yunkai, it was again her wits and charm that won her Yunkai, that's the way I see it anyway. Dany was smart enough to get the second sons drunk, and charming enough to win Daario over to her side, thus allowing her to get the Stormcrows on her side. Dany also decides to attack Yunkai that night, instead of in three days, which is when she implied that her attack would be. Even Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan say that Dany is "Rhaegars sister", because of how well she handled things there, so if we can't trust the word of these two, especially Ser Barristan, then who can we trust?

These are just a few examples of how Dany was successful on her own, not just because she has dragons, but again I believe that Dany is the reason why Dany has dragons, so any success from them, is ultimately because of her.

The way I see it is, Dany getting the dragons is like a game of poker... Yes some of it has to do with luck, but not most of it, you still need to know when to play what cards, when to give up, when to keep going, how to read people. By all rights Dany should have cashed out and given up, yet she goes all in and risks everything by following her gut, and she was right, and it paid off. I will never understand how people think that they can simplify that situation, without being bias, by saying Dany did nothing to deserve the dragons, or by saying that they were "given" to her.

I am not saying that Danny is perfect, but I dont understand most of the arguments on this hate thread. However in no way is Dany a Mary Sue.

And Don't even get me started about all of this "so and so is such a cliche" crap.

[Cairo]

Throughout the series certain characters move into different lights for me. I started out hating Jaime and Sansa, but have since come to like them and hope for their characters. But since AGOT, I have hated Dany with a passion. I have hated how her character has developed. Her chapters are literally the hardest thing to read throughout the series. I have to read a book cover to cover so i can't bring myself to skip them but if she dies on Page 1 of TWOW I would not care at all.