So, I hate Daenerys

[nim]

I was fist pumping when Ned got it and I will be fist pumping when Tyrion puts a blade through Dany's neck.

I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. I imagine Tyrion is more likely to join Dany than to kill her. Speaking of which, I know it's off-topic, but does anyone have any ideas of where Tyrion will be when we see him next? My guess is that he's hiding out somewhere still in the Red Keep with Varys...

[Errant Bard]

Out of curiosity - for those of you who felt nothing when Dany killed Drogo - what were some of the more emotional scenes for you? If any?

I got some pangs with Catelyn raking her face, Arya leaving Harrenhal, Bran leaving Winterfell, Davos losing his sons, Theon's pathetic and doomed quest for acceptance, or Stannis' story.

The narrative tricks are just too visible for Dany. Big barbarian pedophile rapist overlord was marked for death since the beginning, was hardly more than a cardboard cutout character, and the "love" Dany had for him felt forced at best. So he dies? Just one big, visible gear of the story turning, and then comes another turn, with the tacky birth of dragons. Way too bloody visible/forced/artificial/inorganic compared to most the other PoVs (bar Jon, and also in some measure Arya).

If that's your definition of a Mary Sue, Mary Sue has a pretty shitty life.

It's in the definition of the Mary Sue: they do have a tragic past and a shitty life, but still behave perfect and then come on top, in the end, somehow. Think Disney's Cinderella. Or Jaenelle Angeline, co-winner of the westeros mary sue contest alongside Rhapsody, anita blake and Honor Harrington, iirc. (I'm 99% certain all those other characters have such "shitty life" events in their past too, though I never read their respective books.)

She is that archetype, but like all of Martin's characters that's just where she starts, not where she ends. Jon is the "destined warrior with the secret Noble past", Tyrion's the 'clever smart guy who can win the day with brains instead of brawn', Ned is the 'noble warrior who uses honor and duty as his way to win'.

And that all gets turned on its head, often with horrible results and consequences to the characters.

Is it? I submit that it depends on how you view it. I would have sworn that Ned was the archetypal father figure, who dies in the prologue so the farmboy heroes can start their journey, it feels not as much turned on its head as it feels uncompressed, explored. In essence, those horrible things always happen in fantasy, don't they? Parents dying, family (if coming from noble background) losing power/getting extinguished, kids going into hiding/being thought dead, nobles gathering people to reconquer their right, people enslaving heroes meeting their end, and so on, with magical powers, pets, swords, dubious birthrights, prophecies and war thrown into the mix. ASOIAF has not deviated one iota from a standard formula, it just shows us parts that are usually occulted or glossed over. (I mean: Rand's family? Gone in the first chapters. Locke Lamora? ditto. Ganoes Paran? same. Khellus, Cnaiur? Heh. Belgarion? You bet. There's probably not a lot of dragonlance heroes with parents, either. Even pulpy Conan, Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser or Elric go through losing all that stuff prior to adventure.)

I still wait for GRRM to move away from that classical bent of the story, and maybe, have one or several of the kids not be a good guy, and also have some Amber familial conflict eventually. I'm not holding my breath, though.

I wasnt talking about that. I was saying that Jon had to go through some really tough experiences.

You were responding to a post about "plot propelling" and not making decisions, so to bring up that he suffered wasn't really relevant.

[Maia]

Qhorin FORCED Jon to kill him, and even then Ghost had to finish the job.

Ygritte MADE Jon sleep with her. Really. He basically tried to ignore her while having a giant hard-on until she climbed under his sleeping furs.

Jon didn't even have to kill Mance Raydar thanks to Stannis ex machina.

And then Sam elects him LC while he just sits in the corner stewing and practicing at swordplay.

100% agree! Jon has been a very passive character in the first 3 books.

To which I'll also add:

Ghost and Sam prevented Jon from deserting, when he made a life-changing decision for himself, for a change.

Wildlings kindly decided his exit for him, since they demanded that he do something completely unthinkable to him, or die, so he didn't really have to chose whether to betray them.

When he is tempted by Stannis's offer, Ghost timely appears after a lengthy absence as a clear sign to desist. Etc.

If there's one character that never makes any significant decisions for himself, it is Jon.

Well, he did decide to befriend other recruits eventually and to protect and befriend Sam, but compared with the decisions the other characters of his age had to make and far-reaching mistakes that the narrative didn't actively prevent them from making like it did Jon... ya. Not much.

However, I admit that his decision to join the Night's Watch was a real one (though he does get pretty whiny about it right away).

Was it? I thought that it was a case of misunderstanding, when his drunken bitter words were taken far too seriously and acted so precipitously on that Jon felt that he couldn't back down from it. That's why he was so angry, during his last 2 weeks in WF.

That's not to say that Jon doesn't suffer - unless we subscribe to the notion that suffering doesn't count as long as it makes the character "stronger" or unexpectedly enhances their social position.

But the notion that _Dany_ is passively propelled by the plot as compared to Jon seems downright bizarre to me.

OTOH, in AFFC there are hints that Jon finally has to make some truly hard decisions, so that's all to the good. I really hope that he gets more pro-active and interesting now.

[Errant Bard]

But the notion that _Dany_ is passively propelled by the plot as compared to Jon seems downright bizarre to me.

Hah, nobody could argue she's passive, anymore than Arya, Ned, Jaime, or anyone else is, but if Jon is emo-ing in a wheelchair pushed by the plot, Dany is walking on her own two feet down a red carpet unfolded by the plot. To unwind a bit, between the two, the plot like to push Arya down a cliff and kick Tyrion in the gonads.

[Errant Bard]

I really hope The Plot gets what's coming to him in ADwD.

Not likely, plots are like cockroaches, they tend to survive until the end, the filthy bastards. They tend to change alliegeance and side with the good guys after a fashion, though, there's that.

[Horza]

Good points that I agree with in broad thrust

Overall I agree, at times it feels like Jon is in an RPG and following the heavy cues. But I would give him the decision to turn Stannis down - sure Ghost helps but Starks have ignored their gods messages before and suffered for it.

[Areo]

This thread turned from "I hate Daenerys" to "I hate all the survivers" :laugh:

I admit that I'll be disappointed if no one of the Starks dies (Sansa, Arya, Jon, Bran) along with others. But what are you complaining about really? These shielded characters will play a role, they need to get lucky. Otherwise we'd be having a dozen new main characters in place of the dead ones every several chapters or so... If any of you can write a better book go ahead and make sure you send me a copy!

[Daemrion]

This thread turned from "I hate Daenerys" to "I hate all the survivers" :laugh:

I admit that I'll be disappointed if no one of the Starks dies (Sansa, Arya, Jon, Bran) along with others. But what are you complaining about really? These shielded characters will play a role, they need to get lucky. Otherwise we'd be having a dozen new main characters in place of the dead ones every several chapters or so... If any of you can write a better book go ahead and make sure you send me a copy!

For me, it's more like I want to see the characters undergo some sort of prolonged suffering.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I used to not like Dany, but have begun to like her character more and more. Especially on re-reads. My mom is in the middle of aCoK and cannot stand her.

So, no I would not say you are sexist, or a bad person just because you don't like Dany. If you had said you don't like her because women are not capable of ruling because they have periods, well, we would have problems.

But periods attract bears. Bears can smell the menstruation. She's a "sue" bc SHE HASN'T EVEN BEEN ATTACKED BY A BEAR YET!

[Horus Ex Machina]

Plot shield, Mary Sue....she's a main character!!!! I like Dany and I enjoy her chapters. Not liking a character doesn't make you sexist it just means you don't like the character. I don't understand a lot of the hatred towards Dany. Does a character have to die to not be considered "plot protected" or "Mary Sue"? It's laughable!!!! Every character still alive has a "plot shield", thats the fucking story!!!! Dany was sold to Drogo, fell in love with Drogo then he died, and she lost her baby. Yeah she's had it really easy. Another ridiculous point people hate about Dany is her sense of entitlement. Everyone going for the throne or a throne feels a sense of entitlement...Stannis, Renly, Robb. Madness!!!!!

QFT.

One of the most ridiculous ideas that keeps getting brought up is having Daenarys, who's character has been built up for the better part of three books, to simply pack it all in and end up never tying her long narrative to Westeros at all. That will improve the series??!! :rolleyes: To make her entire storyline pointless in the end.

How about we just let GRRM write the books that we all claim to love and revere while we read them and accept his vision?

For me, it's more like I want to see the characters undergo some sort of prolonged suffering.

I have a suggestion for you then. Watch The Passion of the Christ.

[Werthead]

Yeah... and i just bet that youve seen all of it coming right when you first read the books,

Difficult. I thought it was unlikely that Eddard would realistically survive, but I'd read enough books to know that authors could pull all kind of reasons out of the air to keep the hero alive when he should be killed. At the same time, I was already aware of GRRM's work by watching Beauty and the Beast, and knew his preference for killing off characters and making the hard choices. So I probably came down about 60-40 whilst reading the first book in favour of the fact that Eddard would die.

[Dolorous J]

If I can't stand Daenerys, does that automatically make me a bad person

Nah. It just makes you gay . :laugh:

[SerJaime'sBrienne]

If I can't stand Daenerys, does that automatically make me a bad person (I also dislike Catelyn with a passion but that would be a topic for a different thread)? Did GRRM even intend for a her to become a likable character?

I'm not going to recount all the reasons why I don't like Daenerys as a character. I always felt like she was the least relatable/likable of GRRM's great cast of characters. Yet the minute I mentioned my opinion in a comment on another website i was assaulted from all sides and singled out as someone who doesn't know women very well or even has no close relationships with the opposite sex. So I would like to know, from female readers especially, if you enjoy reading Dany's POV chapters and some of the reasons why.

Also do you think that GRRM writes his female characters well? I'm not going to presume to give opinion on that particular topic ever again as my ego still hurts from that last flaming tongue lashing I got :( . But I would just like to know.

I have not read any of this thread but my knee-jerk reaction to those who just categorically hate Dany is that they are sexist. Sorry. I feel that reactionary dislike of her, especially by men, does seem as if they resent her power and are intimidated by her.

Now I am not saying you are a bad person. ;) We can all be guilty of sexism and to some degree that can be ok. But I do get my feathers ruffled when people dis on her for things that plenty of male characters do all. the. freaking. time.

I don't love everything about her. I do consider her in the same way as everyone else: complex and with plently of flaws. But it takes all kinds as they say and she has a story that's as important as anyone else's.

[iamthedave]

I have not read any of this thread but my knee-jerk reaction to those who just categorically hate Dany is that they are sexist. Sorry. I feel that reactionary dislike of her, especially by men, does seem as if they resent her power and are intimidated by her.

Now I am not saying you are a bad person. ;) We can all be guilty of sexism and to some degree that can be ok. But I do get my feathers ruffled when people dis on her for things that plenty of male characters do all. the. freaking. time.

I don't love everything about her. I do consider her in the same way as everyone else: complex and with plently of flaws. But it takes all kinds as they say and she has a story that's as important as anyone else's.

So if I dislike Dany because I feel the writing of her is cliche and she's boring because of her monotonous depression then I'm being sexist?

Her story being important in no way changes the fact that it's pace is similar to that of your average glacier.

[Faint]

Except people that guessed it by chance or by instinct, nobody thought its all construed, fixed or fake.

No one sees Eddard as a naive fool who completely misjudged everything - except when they are looking at it in hindsight.

Then its oh all so obvious! Of course he made a mistake of trusting Slynt (whom he bought) or Littlefinger! Its clear!

Come now, all those things really were obvious as you were reading the book. You might as well add when he showed his cards to Cersei. That was the equivalent of an air horn in narrative-speak. Indeed, I don't know how you could possibly not identify Eddard "as a naive fool who completely misjudged everything" almost from the moment he left Winterfell.

That isn't to say the books don't contain narrative surprises, but Ned and Robb's deaths were very much like unimaginably tall lighthouses on a moonless night -- you could see them from miles and miles away.

[KyleLitke]

If you dislike her because she's a woman in power, yeah, probably. Otherwise, no. She's not my favorite. I wouldn't say I dislike her, just not my favorite.

[Horza]

I don't sympathise with her aims, not being much of a monarchist and if the story was all about her I'd not care much for the books, I suspect.

[The Sand Snake]

Nope doesn't make you sexist...or else I'm sexist also. I do like her plot 20 times better now that she'd with Barristan though. I love Arya and actually have started to like Sansa since Feast too. The girls characters are good mostly.

[Ser Duck]

I really don't get the whole "things I hate about..." I love these goddamn books. Daenerys plot isn't slow and boring it's tense & brooding. Sansa started off annoying because she was annoying ...she was suposed to be a silly little girl with a head full of songs & tails.

We need to concentrate on huge amounts of possitive energy to charge up GRRM so he can live to the ripe old age of 98 and finish the series ;)

[iamthedave]

Come now, all those things really were obvious as you were reading the book. You might as well add when he showed his cards to Cersei. That was the equivalent of an air horn in narrative-speak. Indeed, I don't know how you could possibly not identify Eddard "as a naive fool who completely misjudged everything" almost from the moment he left Winterfell.

That isn't to say the books don't contain narrative surprises, but Ned and Robb's deaths were very much like unimaginably tall lighthouses on a moonless night -- you could see them from miles and miles away.

I wouldn't say he was a naive fool.

He was cynical and had a bad feeling about it from the start, and specifically and repeatedly said he didn't want to go and wanted to go back home. He only went because Catelyn pricked his honour and his friendship with Robert (which Ned doubted many a time). He knew he didn't belong, and he knew he wasn't cut out for the politicking of King's Landing.

It's not naive to know your own weaknesses. Sansa was naive. Ned knew what he was in for, and he knew he wasn't ready for it, but once he'd started he couldn't stop.