So, I hate Daenerys

[Terilien]

Ofc. Why else would people think Sansa ought to "learn a lesson" and love Tyrion already. He's a good guy, he deserves it, no? What she thinks is irrelevant and should just be changed. Or she needs to be "corrected" in how she feels.

Lol.

Why doesn't Tyrion settle for a virtuous ugly dwarf girl then?

People are terrible.

[unRobert]

ZOOOOOOM. That was the sound of the Point of this Discussion moving past you. And you missed it. Sorry.

holy shit you posted like twelve times since then. Well, apparently I really can't keep up with these threads...

-And yes, I yield, I have no idea what the point of this conversation is then... I'm just going to stick with the heresy threads/ discussions about the plot mysteries and stay out of these Character love/hate threads. They kinda freak me out anyway...

[Kittykatknits]

What do you mean? There are guys who think that?

Yes. It is frequent that the desires of female characters in this series are considered as less important than the desires of male characters. Tyrion and Sansa is a common example of this. Hang out long enough and you will see many point out that she needs to get over herself and that they hope she will stay married to him so it can teach her a lesson.

[Kittykatknits]

Lol.

Why doesn't Tyrion settle for a virtuous ugly dwarf girl then?

People are terrible.

You mean someone like Penny, who Tyrion had no desire for?

[Lyanna Stark]

holy shit you posted like twelve times since then. Well, apparently I really can't keep up with these threads...

-And yes, I yield, I have no idea what the point of this conversation is then... I'm just going to stick with the heresy threads/ discussions about the plot and stay out of these Character love/hate threads. They kinda freak me out anyway...

Nah, it's the whole schtick where people claim that because a male character expresses desire or love, the object (normally a female character) needs to respect this and instantly change her view on this male character to something akin to "love" or at least "lust", since it is unacceptable for male desire to go unmet as this is Fantasy fiction and not Reality after all.

You mean someone like Penny, who Tyrion had no desire for?

Tssk tssk, she isn't pretty enough. Who would want him to lower himself?

[Terilien]

Sansa isn't "shallow" anyway. She loves sandor, who isn't exactly a male model.(though it's easy to imagine him that way I guess).

Lol anywho...

[Winter's Knight]

Ladies, I am yours to command.

[Kittykatknits]

Nah, it's the whole schtick where people claim that because a male character expresses desire or love, the object (normally a female character) needs to respect this and instantly change her view on this male character to something akin to "love" or at least "lust", since it is unacceptable for male desire to go unmet as this is Fantasy fiction and not Reality after all.

Tssk tssk, she isn't pretty enough. Who would want him to lower himself?

I forgot myself, why should he lower his standards?

Sansa isn't "shallow" anyway. She loves sandor, who isn't exactly a male model.(though it's easy to imagine him that way I guess).

Great point. She was also willing to marry Willas, who is crippled and probably looked like his father.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sansa isn't "shallow" anyway. She loves sandor, who isn't exactly a male model.(though it's easy to imagine him that way I guess).

Lol anywho...

Terilien, you should come into the Sansa threads where it's ok to not think that Sansa is shallow. :)

I forgot myself, why should he lower his standards?

Yeah seriously, think about what he deserves for a second?? :lol:

[Terilien]

Terilien, you should come into the Sansa threads where it's ok to not think that Sansa is shallow. :)

Thanks Lyanna. Sansa is actually my favorite character!

[Winterfellian]

I'm so glad we have this thread back at the top! I've been waiting for the monthly weekly daily hourly "I hate Dany thread," and just the past couple of days, I've been disappointed!

So glad we have this thread here. Yessir.

~plants flowers in the thread~

Oh, and can I just say I don't really like the idea of Dany/Jon? The problem is that Jon is too f***ing boring and flat for her, honestly. His presence would bring down the overall quality of her chapters. No offense to him really, but can't he just, like, stay dead? And Dany and Daario rule Westeros instead? I like that a lot better really.

Please no Dany/Jon. And I'm not even going to think about Dany/Jorah. Brain bleach!!!

Wow I feel the need to defend Jon here!!

While I loathe any kind of Jon and Dany shipping and think they are completely wrong for each other I don't think is fair to say that he will spoil the excellence of her chapters.

Not all of Dany's chapter have been excellent. There have been many that felt like a drag to many people.

Personally am looking forward for them to meet because I think it will be very interesting since it opens many possibilities for the story (R+L=J and their potential blood relation; also even a possible alliance to fight The Others, etc) Jon, while not shiny, is a very interesting character in itself.

[Kittykatknits]

Thanks Lyanna. Sansa is actually my favorite character!

Then, yes, you need to go to the Sansa thread. It's great. I've learned so much there.

[Winter's Knight]

Then, yes, you need to go to the Sansa thread. It's great. I've learned so much there.

As have I.

[the trees have eyes]

If I can't stand Daenerys, does that automatically make me a bad person (I also dislike Catelyn with a passion but that would be a topic for a different thread)? Did GRRM even intend for a her to become a likable character?

I'm not going to recount all the reasons why I don't like Daenerys as a character. I always felt like she was the least relatable/likable of GRRM's great cast of characters. Yet the minute I mentioned my opinion in a comment on another website i was assaulted from all sides and singled out as someone who doesn't know women very well or even has no close relationships with the opposite sex. So I would like to know, from female readers especially, if you enjoy reading Dany's POV chapters and some of the reasons why.

Also do you think that GRRM writes his female characters well? I'm not going to presume to give opinion on that particular topic ever again as my ego still hurts from that last flaming tongue lashing I got :( . But I would just like to know.

Personally I am a Dany fan. Well, a fan of the Dany of AGOT and ACOK, lukewarm on the Dany of ASOS and a tad disappointed that GRRM seemed to lose the knack of how to write her in ADWD. But plenty of people dislike her, Catelyn and Sansa, it just comes down to personal preference I guess.

Overall GRRM splits his major viewpoint characters roughly evenly between male and female so I disagree that he can't write female characters well: reading Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Dany, Brienne, Asha, Cersei, and Arianne has given me a lot of enjoyment and the only viewpoint character I think we are meant to dislike is Cersei. She's still a damn good read though, if a little dark (her character ofc) for my taste.

[The Bastard of Summer]

I just want to say that I am a female and I too hate Dany, Sansa, Cat, and Cersei. But I love Arya, Brienne, the captain of the Cinnamon Winds daughter, and a few other small female characters.

Now the women I don't like, I dislike for different reasons. It has nothing to do with their sex lives, or me thinking they are whores in any way. Although Cersei is pretty damn gross and skanky for having sexual relations with her brother. Jaime receives the same amount of disgust from me. So does anyone else in the story who sleeps with ANY family member.Also shes a fucking idiot. Not because shes a woman, but because she is just an idiot. Her schemes and plots are too elaborate. She does not understand subtlety/guile without lifting her skirt or someone elses. I dont care about her having sex, just dont use it as a weapon. She needs to understand she is not the only one with a vagina.

I pretty much hate Cat because she was emotionally abusive to a child, plain and simple. There is nothing noone can say about her just trying to protect her kids rights that can sway me otherwise. She is a horrible person. If she is mad at the fact that he exists, she should have taken it out on Ned. Its his "indiscretions" that brought Jon there. Not on the child. Jon would grow up knowing his postion in life she made sure to let him know he was little/not loved.

As for Sansa I dont excuse her age for the blatant betrayal and lack of loyalty to her family. She isn't by any means stupid, a little vapid yes but not stupid. She knew that she would lose favor with the prince and queen had she told the tale of how things really happened between Arya, Joff, the wolf. So she sided with them by saying she didn't remember. I can not stand disloyalty. Then she went and did it again knowing the queen had a vindictive streak when she went and told of her fathers plans of leaving. Hoping to get back into the royal good graces. Nope i can not abide by any of her actions.

Dany, Dany, Dany. Her sense of entitlement. She wants something she doesnt even know what it means to have based on what someone has told her. Look how long it took her to question why people rebelled against her father. The people of westeros didnt want your crazy ass family in power anymore, yet you never asked why. So in your mind the people are awaiting your return so you can bring your dragons with death and destruction down upon them to rule. Even if they dont want it. So you will use your dragons to keep folks in check and burn them if they dont do what you say. How does this make you better than the slavers of the slave cities that you are trying to overthtow?

[QuaitheTheShadow]

If I can't stand Daenerys, does that automatically make me a bad person

No.

Did GRRM even intend for a her to become a likable character?

Yes, most likely.

Also do you think that GRRM writes his female characters well?

I think he writes "tomboys" well - Brienne, Arya, Asha, and Cersei to a large extent. Women who get off on sword play and power grabs.

His more traditionally feminine female characters like Sansa and Cat seemed a bit flat to me.

Dany is something between the two. I loved her in the first three books and was dismayed with the plot stalling and character stagnation she was forced to endure in ADWD.

[the trees have eyes]

Yes. It is frequent that the desires of female characters in this series are considered as less important than the desires of male characters. Tyrion and Sansa is a common example of this. Hang out long enough and you will see many point out that she needs to get over herself and that they hope she will stay married to him so it can teach her a lesson.

Do you think that this might just be that at heart people would like to see a bit of romance in the series?

Personally the idea that Sansa should reciprocate The Hound's feelings (which are rage and lust not love) or loveTyrion for being kind to her when she was a captive and decent to her as a husband are equally bizarre and far-fetched to me. It doesn't stop the SanSan, Jon and Dany, Tysha is the Sailor's Wife and Tyrion will find her threads from springing up though.

The idea of Sansa and Tyrion / Sandor is romantic in the sense that she would look beyond the physical appearance to see the true worth of the person. But considering how the potted character histories of these two would read it seems a pretty dreadful idea!

I'm not sure it's much more than a bit of speculation about unlikely outcomes. There is stuff a lot more out there on the forums.

[Kittykatknits]

I pretty much hate Cat because she was emotionally abusive to a child, plain and simple. There is nothing noone can say about her just trying to protect her kids rights that can sway me otherwise. She is a horrible person. If she is mad at the fact that he exists, she should have taken it out on Ned. Its his "indiscretions" that brought Jon there. Not on the child. Jon would grow up knowing his postion in life she made sure to let him know he was little/not loved.

You do know that Catelyn did confront Ned about it, right? And that his bringing Jon in to the household was a publicly humiliating thing for Ned to do to Catelyn, as in just about the most inconsiderate thing you an do to your wife?

Do you think that this might just be that at heart people would like to see a bit of romance in the series?

Personally the idea that Sansa should reciprocate The Hound's feelings (which are rage and lust not love) or loveTyrion for being kind to her when she was a captive and decent to her as a husband are equally bizarre and far-fetched to me. It doesn't stop the SanSan, Jon and Dany, Tysha is the Sailor's Wife and Tyrion will find her threads from springing up though.

The idea of Sansa and Tyrion / Sandor is romantic in the sense that she would look beyond the physical appearance to see the true worth of the person. But considering how the potted character histories of these two would read it seems a pretty dreadful idea!

I'm not sure it's much more than a bit of speculation about unlikely outcomes. There is stuff a lot more out there on the forums.

I think that romance, sex, love, and romance are just as much a part of life in Westeros as they are here so should be in the books. They aren't bodice-rippers so if someone is looking for that, then these are the wrong books.

For me, what it comes down to, is that I respect character's choice. Sansa clearly does not desire or want to be married to Tyrion so I support that choice. I do not see evidence that Dany and Jon want to be together so I don't have an opinion either way. As for Tysha, as a rape victim I respect that she would not want to be confronted with a man that she would believe to be a participant in the rape.

There are two relationship in the serious that have a significant amount of foreshadowing along with textual evidence of mutual feelings. The first are Jaime and Brienne. Jaime has made statements that indicate his growing feelings towards her and Brienne has indicated the same. Not saying they will ever have a romance, have sex, or will get married. But, they do have feelings for each other. If the choice for both of them is to move forward in to a relationship, then I support their choice.

As for Sandor and Sansa, if you think that his feelings for her are anger and lust, I suggest you look closely at a couple scenes. First, look at the Inn of the Crossroads where he learns about her marriage to Tyrion. Don't just look at what is said, pay attention to what is UNSAID. The same during the conversation on the serpentine steps. Also notice how he talks of Sansa with her sister and how he reacts to what Arya says. It's very obvious that his feelings towards her have nothing to do with anger or lust. He cares very deeply for her. As for Sansa, she has feelings for him too, although she does not yet fully realize this or admit this to the reader. She has had a dream with him in her marriage bed, asking for a song. This indicates she understands the sexual meaning behind that. She has imagined a kiss between them, to the point she remembers what it feels like, she takes pride in kissing a man while Marg's cousins have only kissed boys, she repeatedly wishes that he was with her, and she thinks of him again when Randa asks if she knows what happens in the marriage bed.

Again, I'm not saying that either couple will get married and have a bunch of babies. But, the feelings are very much there. So, sometimes, it's not just fan excitement or wish fulfillment, it's a recognition of what is right there in the text. We aren't just looking for romance for the sake of romance.

[The Fallen]

I thought this was about hating Daenerys? Wrong thread, I guess.

[Kittykatknits]

I thought this was about hating Daenerys? Wrong thread, I guess.

Feel free to state your thoughts. But the earlier conversation was a response to the constant stream of Dany hating threads o this board.