So, I hate Daenerys

[Jaghen]

I think its not the sense of entitlement which is put forward, but rather the sense of her place.

Stannis => I'm the king.

Tyrion, Arianne, Littlefinger, Tywin, Jaime, Randyll, Robb... do they ever care what they are called, or remind anyone of who they are ?

Theon has a bit of a Dany case indeed, "I'm your heir !""Who are you again ?" and got completely fucked because he feels he should have more.

Dany on the other hand... well every chapter we got to see her claiming everything she is (at least three lines...) where a simple I'm the Queen, so GTFO, Stannis style, would have been so much simple.

This seems to be a rather flagrant inferiority complex, having to constantly remind everyone of her titles...

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany on the other hand... well every chapter we got the right of her claiming everything she is (at least three lines...) where a simple I'm the Queen, so GTFO, Stannis style, would have been so much simple.

This seems to be a rather flagrant inferiority complex, having to constantly remind everyone of her titles...

1) Stannis has no titles to remind anyone of (apart from kinslayer, I guess ...)

2) Dany's titles are mentioned when she holds court.

3) Dany, as a woman, has to assert her claim much more than any of the men, which is why she reminds "everyone" of her titles before Meereen ("Woman?" she chuckled. "Is that meant to insult me? I'd return the slap if I took you for a man." Dany met his stare. "I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, khaleesi to Drogo's riders, and queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros." ETA: although, quite notably, she doesn't even list all of her titles here -- she is also the Breaker of Shackles/Chains and the Slayer of Warlocks).

[Winter's Knight]

I think its not the sense of entitlement which is put forward, but rather the sense of her place.

Stannis => I'm the king.

Tyrion, Arianne, Littlefinger, Tywin, Jaime, Randyll, Robb... do they ever care what they are called, or remind anyone of who they are ?

Theon has a bit of a Dany case indeed, "I'm your heir !""Who are you again ?" and got completely fucked because he feels he should have more.

Dany on the other hand... well every chapter we got to see her claiming everything she is (at least three lines...) where a simple I'm the Queen, so GTFO, Stannis style, would have been so much simple.

This seems to be a rather flagrant inferiority complex, having to constantly remind everyone of her titles...

It's PR-the mother of dragons born amidst the storms, come to wreak vengance on Slaver's Bay in a cataclysm of fire and blood and to break the shackles of the poor and downtrodden.

Mercy, it gives me the shivers...

[Lothar Imbel]

(just get out of the way of my dragons or you're fucked)

[Jaghen]

Words are wind, she is de facto Queen of Mereen, Khaleesi to a hundred or so dothrakis (maybe more to come, none can be sure for now) and mother of dragons, the rest is just for the show.

Drogon killed the warlocks, the Unsullied are still slaves in everything but name, and the slaves she freed elsewhere have soon be replaced without her getting back there to free the new ones.

As for the Queen of Westeros, she never even set foot there so it seems a bit preposterous.

If she feels the need to claim everything she is because she is a woman, then she is indeed complexing.If anything, the passage you quote shows she never felt that way, so does sex really have any importance at all ? Except for leading her enemies to underestimate her of course, or seducing virtuous pirates into joining her !

[Lyanna Stark]

I just want to say that I am a female and I too hate Dany, Sansa, Cat, and Cersei. But I love Arya, Brienne, the captain of the Cinnamon Winds daughter, and a few other small female characters.

Now the women I don't like, I dislike for different reasons. It has nothing to do with their sex lives, or me thinking they are whores in any way.

So, you know, why don't you like them?

Dany is definitely a kind person who tries her best, as evidenced by Missandei, her handmaidens, Jorah and others who are associated with her and really appreciate her. Sansa is even kind to Lancel after he assisted Joffrey with accusations in her beatings, she saved Dontos from execution and she's able to reach out to the Hound although she is terrified herself.

Cat does everything in her power to help her family (incl Lysa, her little sister) up to and including releasing Jaime. She accepts Brienne and saves her life. Her love for her children is so strong even after death she doesn't give up the fight and still wants to find them.

Now Cersei is more interesting than likeable, but the others? I am just not sure how you can hate these three characters as they are with small exceptions basically good people trying their best.

[Betty Amazing]

I find it difficult not to sympathise with most of the POV characters, they're generally trying to do what's best - whether it's for themselves, for their family, 'for the realm'. You get a real insight into what the characters are thinking, and none of them are rampaging around the books with a pirate swagger, thinking to themselves: "Ha har! I will burn/pillage/rape these imbeciles, for mine is an evil laugh, and I shall do what I like for no apparent reason!"

Obviously the characters are flawed, it's human nature. This applies to some more than others. Cercei, for instance is one of the... less sympathetic POVs, because she has a massive lack of empathy for other people, and will use anyone/everything to get what she wants. Still though when her POV was introduced it was nice to see her caring for her children, even if she doesn't exactly go about it the right way... or even with the proper motivations.

Dany is one that I feel a lot of frustration with, because she started off so well - she was given independence and power, she had the love of the Dothraki and of her husband, she had a purpose and she belonged for the first time in her life. Since the end of the first book though she's kind of been wondering about with no real plan, like a lost lamb. She tries to solve complicated problems with short term solutions, without thinking of the repercussions, and then wonders why everyone's being such a meanie to her. I think she has the best of intentions but is too short-sighted to really understand how to really deal with people.

Dany wants to swoop in with a grand gesture, and then be fawned over by everybody because she's saved them. Not a bad thing to want for but completely unrealistic, and it's left her stuck in Essos, losing sight of her goals and of her 'true self'. She just needs to stop dicking around, take some advice from people who are more experienced than her, and stop playing the child, it's getting old.

x

[Lyanna Stark]

Not a bad thing to want for but completely unrealistic, and it's left her stuck in Essos, losing sight of her goals and of her 'true self'. She just needs to stop dicking around, take some advice from people who are more experienced than her, and stop playing the child, it's getting old.

To be sure, but one of the issues that Dany has had is a dire lack of really good mentors. Compared to someone like say, Jon Snow, she's far worse off. In fact, she's probably worse off than Sansa (the Hound, Littlefinger, Cersei) and Arya (Yoren, Jaqen, Sandor, the Kindly Man).

She's had: Viserys (uh oh), Jorah (ok, but maybe a bit limited) Khal Drogo (ouch), Missandei (lovely, but a bit too young), random people in Meereen (in it for themselves, limited perspective, non trustworthy etc) and Barristan (good man but perhaps a bit of a stick in the mud). And Quaithe, but she helps to fuel paranoia more than offer assistance most of the time.

[Betty Amazing]

To be sure, but one of the issues that Dany has had is a dire lack of really good mentors. Compared to someone like say, Jon Snow, she's far worse off. In fact, she's probably worse off than Sansa (the Hound, Littlefinger, Cersei) and Arya (Yoren, Jaqen, Sandor, the Kindly Man).

She's had: Viserys (uh oh), Jorah (ok, but maybe a bit limited) Khal Drogo (ouch), Missandei (lovely, but a bit too young), random people in Meereen (in it for themselves, limited perspective, non trustworthy etc) and Barristan (good man but perhaps a bit of a stick in the mud). And Quaithe, but she helps to fuel paranoia more than offer assistance most of the time.

When you put it like that she's pretty badly off!

I do take your point. I can understand why Dany is naive and that she perhaps hasn't had the best upbringing... (eek) and she definitely hasn't been groomed for command, like Jon has. I wonder what her solution is, really.

x

[Lummel]

...Dany is one that I feel a lot of frustration with, because she started off so well - she was given independence and power, she had the love of the Dothraki and of her husband, she had a purpose and she belonged for the first time in her life. Since the end of the first book though she's kind of been wondering about with no real plan, like a lost lamb. She tries to solve complicated problems with short term solutions, without thinking of the repercussions, and then wonders why everyone's being such a meanie to her. I think she has the best of intentions but is too short-sighted to really understand how to really deal with people.

Dany wants to swoop in with a grand gesture, and then be fawned over by everybody because she's saved them. Not a bad thing to want for but completely unrealistic, and it's left her stuck in Essos, losing sight of her goals and of her 'true self'. She just needs to stop dicking around, take some advice from people who are more experienced than her, and stop playing the child, it's getting old...

She needs to kill the girl and let the woman be born maybe ;)

I agree absolutely and think you have a good insight into Daenerys, the flipside of course is that she is a child (is she sixteen yet?) and as Lyanna was saying her advisors are a pretty poor bunch, her education and mentors worse.

Mind you, Jon, with a host of advantages also manages to end up badly too...

Why not come and join us on the Dany and Jon reread thread and shake your head over them some more? :)

[Dave X]

Best female characters (IMO): ygritte (endearing, interesting, different) :( , arya (interesting),olenna (at least relatively intelligent) Brienne (paragon of honorability, tho terribly naive)

Worst: Cersei(though interesting, not likeable in any sense except hotitude), Catelyn(least favorite series character.void of any redeeming quality, go ahead and argue that she loves her children, she's done a bang up job so far), Sansa ( almost as bad as Catelyn, intelligence of average rock, although she may continue to improve in that area and others)/ all sand snakes

Largely indifferent/undecided on the rest

Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of intellect on the female side except possibly for Olenna...not too much intellect on either side really...mostly cunning...Tyrion has some of both...

[Betty Amazing]

She needs to kill the girl and let the woman be born maybe ;)

Why not come and join us on the Dany and Jon reread thread and shake your head over them some more? :)

I have been lurking it! I'm sure there's been more added since I last looked though, that thread's picking up a pace! x

[Kittykatknits]

Daario Sparrow just became my favorite character... kinda makes sense, should have seen it earlier !

Kittykatknits, whether Cat confronted Ned or not is irrelevant in the fact that Jon had no part in the shame she suffered whatsoever... I personally started hating her with the "It should have been you...", and have had a harsh judgement on everything she did afterwards.

Yes I know she confronted Ned. She did not have to act the way she did. Period.

It took Cat two weeks to gather the courage to ask Ned about Jon and it is the only time in their marriage that he ever frightened her. He also forbid her from talking about Ashara or any of it again. There was no pattern of abuse or cruelty from Cat towards Jon. She made a single comment in the middle of her grief. A fact which Martin himself has confirmed. Cat was cool towards Jon, she didn't love him and did not want to be his mother. But, why should she? The norm is for men to keep the bastards away from their wives. Ned, by insisting on having Jon around, did one of the most shaming and insensitive things to Cat that he could. He never bothered to tell either of them the truth about Jon's parentage. Why doesn't Ned get any of the blame for this? He's the one that created the situation and forced both of them to live with it. Why is it all Cat's fault? There were plenty of other women around that could have been a mother figure for Jon, Catelyn was not obligated to do so. In fact, Ned never asked her to do anything of the sort.

Beyond this, everything we saw Cat do was an effort to help her children. Her dying thoughts were of Ned and her family.

ETA: UnCat hardly gets any hate on this board. Apparently, saying one unkind thing in the middle of your grief is an unforgivable sin, but hanging people up without any pretense of a trial is perfectly fine.

[Winter's Knight]

ETA: UnCat hardly gets any hate on this board. Apparently, saying one unkind thing in the middle of your grief is an unforgivable sin, but hanging people up without any pretense of a trial is perfectly fine.

But Kitts, that's Badass!

[Kittykatknits]

But Kitts, that's Badass!

Oh that's right, silly me. I forgot that women who are active and badass are Super Awesome, no matter what it is they are doing, however could I forget. Thank you for reminding me and pointing out the error of my ways.

[Winter's Knight]

Oh that's right, silly me. I forgot that women who are active and badass are Super Awesome, no matter what it is they are doing, however could I forget. Thank you for reminding me and pointing out the error of my ways.

It's all right love, we all lose our footing occasionally-now go hang some Freys!

[LordBloodraven]

Oh that's right, silly me. I forgot that women who are active and badass are Super Awesome, no matter what it is they are doing, however could I forget. Thank you for reminding me and pointing out the error of my ways.

UnCat doesn't get any hate? People are complaining about her existence, her resurrection all the time. And I would forgive her hanging some Freys without trial after her husband and sons were all butchered.

[Kittykatknits]

UnCat doesn't get any hate? People are complaining about her existence, her resurrection all the time. And I would forgive her hanging some Freys without trial after her husband and sons were all butchered.

The difference between the amount of hate that UnCate receives in comparison to Catelyn is huge. She isn't hanging just Freys, although is a large bulk of them. She hangs anyone who she thinks deserves it.

[Evamitchelle]

Catelyn(least favorite series character.void of any redeeming quality, go ahead and argue that she loves her children, she's done a bang up job so far), Sansa ( almost as bad as Catelyn, intelligence of average rock, although she may continue to improve in that area and others)/ all sand snakes

Largely indifferent/undecided on the rest

Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of intellect on the female side except possibly for Olenna...not too much intellect on either side really...mostly cunning...Tyrion has some of both...

So, saving a complete stranger at the risk of your own life is not considered a redeeming quality any more ? (I'm talking about Cat and Sansa both).

[Betty Amazing]

I think the fact is that we don't really see enough of UnCat - what the hell is going on there?? Why are people following her? Has she gone completely mental, or has she retained enough of "Cat" to even vaguely function as a real person when she's not all 'noose happy'?

Do you think that when she's not pursuing her quest for vengeance she reads all the kids at the inn bedtime stories?

I think people can justify not hating on UnCat because they see her bloodlust as justified after the RW. x