So, I hate Daenerys

[Lamaros]

- the motherly, possesive type (Catelyn, Cercei)

- the ambitious (Cercei, Daenerys, Queen of Thorns, Arianne, Asha)

- the tomboy (Asha, Arya, Brienne)

- the naive princess (Sansa)

Not bad, since the male´s types are much more limited. Basically, all we have are:

- the warriors (Jaime, Robert, Loras, you name them)

- the manipulators (Littlefinger, Varis, Doran, Tywin)

- the politicians (Tywin Lannister, Doran Martell, Littlefinger)

- the noble fools... sorry (Ned, the Onion Knight, Tyrion, Rhaegar

FIXED, just for the point of argument. You can do this all day long.

The characters aren't that one dimensional, they're just not always understandable as characters. Jamie I think is done ok and makes sense, as does Catelyn, Ned, Doran and quite a few others, but they all have elements where you go "eh? I don't buy that" and I think that Dany has a lot of these moments, more than other characters, and it is this which makes her seem more poorly written to me, not because she's fitting into an archetype.

Ned after all is a pretty classic noble fool, but you can still believe him as a character. Cercei on the other hand seems to take the believable bits from Catelyn and then throw in 'crazed bitch' and 'whore' in a mish-mash that I don't completely believe. Her character development, like that of Dany (and Jon, and Arya), often seems to serve the plot first and her character second. With Catelyn and Ned you always felt, like them or not, that they acted the way they acted because that is who they were, not because the plot needed it X to happen.

[BlackTalon]

Dude, you need to take other´s opinion of your own private feelings and opinions less seriously... :-D

[Lamaros]

Woah, people discussing the books and characters on a forum the exists for just that purpose?!

[The Marquis de Leech]

Not bad, since the male´s types are much more limited. Basically, all we have are:

- the warriors (Jaime, Robert, Loras, you name them)

- the manipulators (Littlefinger, Tyrion, Varis)

- the politicians (Tywin Lannister, Doran Martell)

- the noble fools... sorry (Ned, the Onion Knight, and Rhaegar IMO)

Nonsense. Where would you place Theon? Or the Blackfish? Or Maester Aemon? Or Samwell Tarly? Or the various singers (minus Rhaegar) we encounter? There are plenty of male characters who do not fall into those simple categories in any meaningful sense.

[Naknakkus]

So, you hate Daenerys: that makes you a moron.

[mcbigski]

Oh, and technically speaking, Stannis being attainted; if Myrcella were to die, Daenerys would be Tommen's heir. If you want to use the argument of legality. Frankly, Daenerys isn't going to be very concerned about legality when she comes to Westeros. Neither was Aegon the Dragon.

With Stannis's line out of the picture, and the various bastards excluded, there really is no heir after Myrcella. Dany has no standing as the Baratheon heir, if her claim were recognized, she'd already be Queen. Likewise, the Lannisters don't enter the succession except to the extent that Tommen and Myrcella are assumed descended from the Baratheons. Much like how Lord Estermont (Robert's still living grandfather) has no claim himself to the Baratheon line, since it was his daughter that married Robert's father.

There might be some distant, legitimate Baratheon cousin running around somewhere, but to the best of my knowledge, he or she has never been named or even hinted at.

Though as it stands right now, if Tommen and Myrcella were declared illegitimate or died without issue, then Dany's heir, were she Queen, would in fact be Stannis. But that doesn't make the reverse true, necessarily.

[Thor85]

Though as it stands right now, if Tommen and Myrcella were declared illegitimate or died without issue, then Dany's heir, were she Queen, would in fact be Stannis. But that doesn't make the reverse true, necessarily.

But what about the dragons? For argument's sake. They could be considered as Daenerys' adopted heirs. Perhaps they could be made into sort of very symbolic puppet heads of state. They could perch on the Iron Throne and look fierce belching fireballs while somebody more human actually governs behind the stage (Littlefinger seems to be aiming for such a role already). So in the wake of Daenerys's and Jon's tragic deaths (battling the Others no doubt) the Grand Dragon Keeper Littlefinger arises? Snazzy title, no? Now that would be a perfect ending to the series :).

[Caine]

Much hate for Dany also. I'm not female, but here are my thoughts . . .

At first, I mostly felt sorry for Dany. Then, as others have already noted, I find Dany's sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne very exhausting. Her dragons imbalance everything, and I for one hope they all die. I intently dislike the idea of her dragons landing on Westeros to save the day in a fight against the Others or against other Westerosi Houses. Very, very, very unsatisfying. I don't want to see her sit the Iron Throne. Compared to her power (her host of Unsullied, her dragons, her growing strength as more armies and people flock to her dragons), Jon's "meteoric rise," such as it is, pales in comparison. Jon leads a crumbling contingent of the Night's Watch and he's at Stannis' mercy now anyhow. I find it misleading to compare Dany's rise with Jon's. In sheer power, there's no contest!

That is not say Dany's chapters aren't entertaining. She had some very readable and fun chapters in AGOT and ASOS (ACOK, not so much).

I also don't see how Arya is anything like Dany. I certainly don't feel I'm hanging Dany for what I excuse in Arya. Arya simply wants to return to her family, whether that's her mother, her brother Robb or Jon. She considers going to the Night's Watch because her brother is there. Although I found AFFC pretty forgettable, there's an Arya chapter in there that I love: the one where she can't forsake Needle, because Needle is Winterfell, Needle is Jon, Needle remains a token from her family. Where Arya is feisty and emotional, Dany is calculating, where Arya wants to return her family no matter where they are, Dany feels as though Westeros belongs to her, where Arya hides from her true identity in squalor, Dany wants everything owed to her as the rightful Targaryen heir.

Here's the ultimate irony: where Arya started feisty, aggressive and combative, I believe Jon's influence tempers her violence; where Dany began sweet, innocent and victimized, I believe Viserys's influence inflames a mad vengeance in Dany.

As for Martin's female characters, it's true these aren't the most flattering characterizations (Cersei, Lysa, Sansa, even Catelyn), and definitely geared for the heterosexual male. But hey, aren't most romance novels -- the most prolific genre in literature -- geared towards the heterosexual female? I'd rather not read that stuff here too.

[Blackthrone]

I also don't see how Arya is anything like Dany. I certainly don't feel I'm hanging Dany for what I excuse in Arya. Arya simply wants to return to her family, whether that's her mother, her brother Robb or Jon. She considers going to the Night's Watch because her brother is there. Although I found AFFC pretty forgettable, there's an Arya chapter in there that I love: the one where she can't forsake Needle, because Needle is Winterfell, Needle is Jon, Needle remains a token from her family. Where Arya is feisty and emotional, Dany is calculating, where Arya wants to return her family no matter where they are, Dany feels as though Westeros belongs to her, where Arya hides from her true identity in squalor, Dany wants everything owed to her as the rightful Targaryen heir.

Here's the ultimate irony: where Arya started feisty, aggressive and combative, I believe Jon's influence tempers her violence; where Dany began sweet, innocent and victimized, I believe Viserys's influence inflames a mad vengeance in Dany.

Man, I think I'm going to copy this down as evidence for Jon/Arya/Daenerys.

[Prince Rhaegar Targaryen]

Here's the ultimate irony: where Arya started feisty, aggressive and combative, I believe Jon's influence tempers her violence; where Dany began sweet, innocent and victimized, I believe Viserys's influence inflames a mad vengeance in Dany.

Um. Jon is at the Wall. Arya is not.

Arya started cheecky, not aggressive, and Jon was with her in the beginning. Now, after her long journey through a world at war, she's an emotionally scarred girl with no one of her family left alive (save Jon of course, bu as he is way out of reach at the moment it doesn't really matter). I don't think we can presume what influence Jon will have on her, if they ever meet again. There can happen a lot in between and Arya's current direction doesn't exactly lead away from violence and aggression.

Viserys actually scared Dany for most of her childhood, when she finally starts hitting back she's mostly sorry about it and pities him. Mad vengeance? Not exactly. That comes later, with Robert's hired knifes and the slave cities' atrocities, although "mad" is debatable ;)

[Weirdow.]

I don't like od dislike Daenerys. But I think she really tries in what she's doing and somehow I understand her. Thus, she can be dumb sometimes. MMD fucked her up pretty well.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

So, you hate Daenerys: that makes you a moron.

Care to elaborate?

My opinion of Dany has gone up...but her chapters need to start getting more interesting, and this will likely happen once Tyrion arrives.

[Tara1189]

Add me to the 'irritated by Dany' contingent. Though her chapters are generally entertaining to read (especially in AGoT), with some gorgeous exotic descriptions, I also consider her narrative to be one of the weakest elements in the series.

Everything about her feels too contrived. Not only is she (apparently) impossibly beautiful (incidently, the 'silver hair and purple eyes' description would get you laughed off fanfiction.net), I hate how the plot seems to bend over backwards to accommodate her. Unlike Westeros, which has brilliant minds of the likes of Littlefinger and Tyrion, Dany easily manages to trick her way to aquiring the Unsullied and retaining her dragons. Shit like that just wouldn't fly in King's Landing. She's had no political training or experience in manipulation or intrigue yet manages to win over the sellswords in Yunkai. She also somehow becomes a master strategist in military situations despite having never been exposed to that kind of environment. Apparently she's so awesome that Jorah Mormont revokes his status as the mole and falls desperately in love with her, while Barristan Selmy shows her devoted loyalty. Other than these two, she's either surrounded by sycophants or two-dimensional villains that I just can't take seriously as any kind of meaningful threat. Basically, she's plot-protected until she gets to Westeros with her dragons.

What I love about Martin's series is that he doesn't write heroes and villains - he writes people. Yet, with Dany (and Jon, to a degree) I feel as though I could be reading about any standard fantasy character who is special enough to be the subject of several prophecies, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't help that we only see Dany from her own point of view (something I am very much hoping Dragons will put an end to). I for one would love to see Tyrion calling Daenerys out on her bullshit and refusing to tell her how awesome she is. It would be refreshing to see Dany have to deal with someone who is actually intelligent for a change and whom she has no power over.

Make it happen, George.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Oh yay, a Zombie Dany-Hate thread. What could be more fun??? :rolleyes:

[FatCatOberyn]

So, you hate Daenerys: that makes you a moron.

What right do you have to call someone a moron simply because he hates this irritating mary-sueish character?

[Ran]

You may notice that the last post in this thread was more than a year and a half ago. So, responding to a post that old is probably not very useful. ;)

I think Dany is exceptional, but as we're told repeatedly, the Targaryens were always exceptional -- exceptionally mad or exceptionally brilliant (or a bit of both) was their typical state. It's in the blood, so to speak.

I also don't think Dany has a lack of people questioning her -- not least herself. She's not exactly lacking self-awareness, as we see her struggling with the weight of the choices she's made in ASoS and which I expect will be a major theme for ADwD.

[FatCatOberyn]

You may notice that the last post in this thread was more than a year and a half ago. So, responding to a post that old is probably not very useful. ;)

I think Dany is exceptional, but as we're told repeatedly, the Targaryens were always exceptional -- exceptionally mad or exceptionally brilliant (or a bit of both) was their typical state. It's in the blood, so to speak.

I also don't think Dany has a lack of people questioning her -- not least herself. She's not exactly lacking self-awareness, as we see her struggling with the weight of the choices she's made in ASoS and which I expect will be a major theme for ADwD.

Didn't even notice :P

But still, it wasn't me who "revived" the thread.

[evanesco75]

It's funny because I have really enjoyed all Dany's chapters, but I don't have much use for her specifically. While I agree that things always seem to work out well for her, I also think that this might be a point: the Targs are speshul. Well, in some ways at least (good and bad).

Sometimes she seems too damned wise and mature for a teenager, even having contextualized her in terms of her background and experiences. I do like the altruistic (for lack of a more apt word) side of her. She's almost the only person of high birth we see who cares about the common people and slavery (apart from Ned, who banished Jorah for selling slaves and even that more about him being a stickler for the rules than compassionate about slaves), for example. I just wish her virtues would be offset by more complex qualities. Right now, even her rage and her occasional bloodlust is presented in a near-positive light, or explained away.

[Cereal Forel]

I do like the altruistic (for lack of a more apt word) side of her. She's almost the only person of high birth we see who cares about the common people and slavery (apart from Ned, who banished Jorah for selling slaves), for example.

Unless they were the slaves that Drogo's Khalasar took.

[FatCatOberyn]

Unless they were the slaves that Drogo's Khalasar took.

Apart from that, everyone in Westeros frowns on slavery, even the nobles.