Weakest scene in the book?

[WinterRyan]

Practically any scene from a Brienne POV in AFFC.

AGREED!

Not only do her POV's fail, she bounces from brilliant fighter to afraid cannot fight in the same book...she is just a failed character and I pray her 1 word was "sorry" for the waste of reading she caused us...

[PetrusOctavianus]

AGREED!

Not only do her POV's fail, she bounces from brilliant fighter to afraid cannot fight in the same book...she is just a failed character and I pray her 1 word was "sorry" for the waste of reading she caused us...

Now you're talking of POV, not *scenes*.

Another scene that I felt was a bit weak:

The Karstarks' obsession, to the point of comitting treason and murderering two young boys in their sleep, with killing Jaime, because Jaime slew two of Rickard's son in honest *battle*, a battle in which Jaime was the defender.

[WinterRyan]

Now you're talking of POV, not *scenes*.

Another scene that I felt was a bit weak:

The Karstarks' obsession, to the point of comitting treason and murderering two young boys in their sleep, with killing Jaime, because Jaime slew two of Rickard's son in honest *battle*, a battle in which Jaime was the defender.

Not a scene really- forgive me

but an omitted scene Moat being taken without any real description- a key loss for the north barely discussed

[Baratheon_bastard]

It seems like a lot of you are complaining about scenes because they don't fit in with a lot of cliche' fantasy novels.

Are there really people who hate Brienne's entire PoV?? That just seems disgraceful to me, they add a lot to Martin's world (I complained about that in another thread so I won't repeat myself here).

And Brienne has been a good fighter because we've really only seen her in tourneys and whatnot before Feast. And even when she is upset and crying about killing people, she is still a remarkable fighter (1 vs 3 at the Whispers? Come on, that was impressive).

I think one of the weaker scenes is Jon's election as LC. It was interesting to some extent, but still not entirely believable.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I'm not a fan of Brienne the character, but her scenes in AFFC did add to the novel for me. We got to see the gritty underclass of westeros, and get a picture of what life for the average person was like. I liked nimble Dick too.

I must also be braindead. I enjoyed the Dany/unsullied sequence.

I found Jon getting elected LC totally absurd.

[Jaqen the FatManderly]

Though I did find Jaime's first chapter in ASoS, in which she sinks a galley, somewhat unlikely.

She leapt off a boat, onto an island, dropped a giant boulder from an overhanging island onto a passing boat, IIRC.

Compared to enlisting an army of tribal peoples by promising them a fertile land to conquer and then leading them in the opposite direction, never to mention it again.

Hmm...

I thought the Catelyn sailing ahead of her hubby to unravel the attempted murder mystery conspiracy poorly written all around, but it's partly that she's a weak character.

"Reek's" amazing timing at the siege of Winterfell and (in particular) the cliched "evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" feel to the whole deal.

[SummerKnight]

man am i glad none of you haters wrote these books. We would be forced to read all of you 'realistic' and 'probable' fantasy ramblings and I would've burned your books and your names would have been cursed at length for writing such drivel. like robert jordan. seriously, tyrion killin tywin is weak? wtf? brienne's chapters are boring/weak? daenarys roasting a bunch of slavers and slaughtering them with their own slaves dosnt cut the mustard? What are you guys looking for? a bunch of cute little pink bunnies nicing their way to wins over greedy, fat, overconfident, greedy slavers?

I particularly love it when you guys say that something one of GRRM's characters does is out of character! LOL. They're his characters, he created them, everything they do is in character!

maybe you guys want legolas and gimli to show up and defeat the dark lord on the slopes of the prophesied mountain.

but seriously, folks, the reason these books are so good and most of us all love them so much is their unpredictability AND their predictibility. If everything was unpredictable then the whole thing would become ridiculous real quick. The predictibility of most things is what makes those shocking moments all the more dramatic.

I for one cant think of a weak moment in the novels, I love all the POV characters (and a few other besides), and this story is amazing!

but... if i had to pick a weak moment, i would have to say... tyrion doing gymnastics in front of jon snow in AGOT. If i remember correctly, tyrions legs are so stunted that they often cramp up on him...

[Jaqen the FatManderly]

but... if i had to pick a weak moment, i would have to say... tyrion doing gymnastics in front of jon snow in AGOT. If i remember correctly, tyrions legs are so stunted that they often cramp up on him...

I totally agree, that was completely out of character for him....

[Errant Bard]

What are you guys looking for? a bunch of cute little pink bunnies nicing their way to wins over greedy, fat, overconfident, greedy slavers?

No, we are looking for masters of a brigand city to have the cunning and cautiousness of real rulers, something on the level of the Westerosi Lords, like Walder or Roose, and not thinly veiled excuses to give Dany armies for free (or Jon, same thing). Or more to the point, we wanted a way to give Dany her free armies more believable than dropping for her out of almost nowhere cities of moron with invincible armies for the taking, but only in the part of the world she's in (coincidence!).

In essence, it's not weak because Dany takes an army from slavers, it's weak because it's not written well enough to maintain suspension of disbelief at the same level as usual. The same scene, better written, wouldn't be weak. As it is, it borders caricature.

[Mad Monkey]

I see what you're saying, but it's not really a "coincidence" that the Unsullied were there. That's why she went over to Astapor in the first place; it's not like she was there to see her cousin with the Olympic-sized swimming pool and the Mercedes! The only scene that I seriously didn't want to read was Sam and his "fat pink mast". The guy spends hundreds of chapters feeling sorry for himself, and the author throws him an awkward sex scene with the inbred daughter of a serial killer? It wasn't a bad scene, and I can see why it's in the book, but I would have picked a different metaphor.

[Errant Bard]

I see what you're saying, but it's not really a "coincidence" that the Unsullied were there.

As much a coincidence as you can get: she wanted an army, she had an army-distributor just down the road, from a narrative point of view. But if you want, I can call it just a pathetically visible rope, a plot device planted by the author just for her. Either way the narrative trick is painfully visible, poorly hidden, weakly written, and not on the level of the rest of the storytelling.

[alguien]

Weak scene?

Weak is a fairly relative term because I think GRRM's weakest scene is way better than a lot of tripe out there.

I have no problem with any of Brienne's chapters, nor Jon's election, Dany's Unsullied Coup. The uber-realist faction on this board tends to forget that in real life extraordinary, uplifting things, do sometimes actually happen.

Cersei's chapters wore thin on me, but more because I loathed her personality rather than the quality of her story.

Yeah, I can honestly say no weak scenes for me. Whenever I've picked up Song of Ice and Fire, I'm always totally immersed in the story. Everything I've read happening so far seemed well within possible, given the parameters that Martin set up.

Hmm. Go GRRM.

[Krafus]

The ending to Brienne's last chapter in Feast. It's the one and only time I've ever been genuinely disappointed with GRRM (concerning the books themselves). My thoughts when I finished that chapter were about this: "Great, a frigging cliffhanger that likely won't get resolved for years, and he can't even give us the word she said?!"

[Ran]

I'm with Nadie. I've been scratching my brain and there's nothing that stands out as a chapter that shouldn't have been written or what have you. So then it's a question of some scene which is the least successful of its type... and I think it's Jon's friends convincing him to not run off in AGoT, repeating the oath of the Watch.

Not so much because I couldn't suspend disbelief or any of that sort of thing, but merely that it felt too much like an easy cliché sequence straight out of a Hollywood film.

[Mad Monkey]

As much a coincidence as you can get: she wanted an army, she had an army-distributor just down the road, from a narrative point of view. But if you want, I can call it just a pathetically visible rope, a plot device planted by the author just for her. Either way the narrative trick is painfully visible, poorly hidden, weakly written, and not on the level of the rest of the storytelling.

Oh. See, I can buy it as plausible because the area that Dany was in seems to be infested with sellswords and slaves. I'm not sure how having even more scenes of Dany and co wandering aimlessly throughout the land would have made it more plausible. They'd already spent an entire book just travelling from place to place begging for help; it's not too bizarre for them to consciously choose to travel to a city where they can buy the help they need instead of just begging for it.

Yeah, I can honestly say no weak scenes for me. Whenever I've picked up Song of Ice and Fire, I'm always totally immersed in the story. Everything I've read happening so far seemed well within possible, given the parameters that Martin set up.

I have to agree with that. I usually don't read fantasy novels because the authors often go beyond the parameters that they themselves set up, because they didn't think the entire story through and got to book 6 before realizing that the climax was impossible. I liked ASOS because most of what happened was set up in advance before it was needed by the characters. Lord Frey was already seen as scheming and malevolent before the Red Wedding, making his betrayal more logical than, say, having Edmure Tully be behind the whole thing. Slavery was already a common thread mentioned throughout Dany's chapters in AGOT, so I can buy that someone would be selling slaves as soldiers in Astapor.

[SummerKnight]

But if you want, I can call it just a pathetically visible rope, a plot device planted by the author just for her. Either way the narrative trick is painfully visible, poorly hidden, weakly written, and not on the level of the rest of the storytelling.

uh... ok. and you could've written it better? or told GRRM's story better than him? Actually that part of the story I thought was well written, not overly predictable, veiled enough, and just as solidly written as the rest of the story.

I'm not gonna get into waht is 'realistic' or 'plausible' in a fantasy novel with any of you, but surely dany deserves a little more credit than that. Shes the last (known) targaryen, she's shown herself as a proven leader, she's smart (after some lessons), shes got dragons, and she uses the arrogance and overconfidence of a known slaver to bring about their downfall. Remember, they thought they were dealing with a stupid 13 year old girl, not a blooded, experienced, cunning queen.

But, you dont have to like it. You are entitled to your opinion, I just hope you dont mistake number of posts for credibility, mr errand bard :smoking: . I for one find dany's chapters to be amongst the best written, right up there with arya, sansa, bran, cersei, jamie, brienne, davos, and tyrion. go figure.

[PetrusOctavianus]

I'm not gonna get into waht is 'realistic' or 'plausible' in a fantasy novel with any of you, but surely dany deserves a little more credit than that. Shes the last (known) targaryen, she's shown herself as a proven leader, she's smart (after some lessons), shes got dragons, and she uses the arrogance and overconfidence of a known slaver to bring about their downfall. Remember, they thought they were dealing with a stupid 13 year old girl, not a blooded, experienced, cunning queen.

The problem is not their underestimating Dany, but rather that they are so greedy and/or stupid that they sell *all* their soldiers, leaving their rich city wide open for *any* army.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

But it was stated in the book how Astapor didnt care about leaving themselves open-they were the area's slavers. If the (for example) dothraki sacked astapor, they would have noone to sell their captives to. The Astapori would've assumed the same of Dani. They had no idea she hated slavery, and even hinted at her becoming another one of their suppliers in the future.

However, i will say that i find the whole Dani storyline rather weak. Things do sort of 'fall into place', and she becomes an almost untouchable character who you know is going to overcome every obstacle.

[Serc]

I liked the scene, whether illogical or not.

[MojoJojo]

OK, heres a few...

Arya escaping through the magical trap door when Amory Lorch attacks Yoren's boys.

John Snow becoming Lord Commander despite his youth, inexperience and questionable loyalty.

Tyrion becoming an uber bad ass knight on the Blackwater.

Sam's escape from the Wights, with the deus ex machina appearance of Coldhands.

Dany taking the well fortified city of Mereen by a curiously unguarded secret sewer entrance.

John Snow sparing Ygritte and letting her go despite stern orders to slit her throat. You know if that had been some smelly wildling man, instead of some smelly wildling woman, he'd a been cat food. The squishy chivalry of that scene turned my stomach.