The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[Edward the Great]

Recently I have been thinking Darkstar has an important role to play as well and was wondering what if Ned did have an affair with Ashara (Darkstar being the result) and we have a little baby switch with Jon and Darkstar. Jon of course being the result of R+L. This would also fit with most of Ned's children taking on the appearance of their mother.

Disclaimer: I have no idea about Darkstar's parents - let me know if GRRM already gave him some.

All the interesting speculation about Darkstar is debunked by his age. But, and I'm going really far afield with this, if Martin had stuck to his original 5 year leap idea, then Darkstar could be a lot of very interesting people. I wonder if Martin had to change the character. At the least, Martin seams to enjoy messing with readers' heads, and a 5 year leap with Darkstar's age remaining the same would do that. He couldn't have made Darkstar younger without ruining the "badass" aura that Martin tried to give him.

[SFDanny]

All the interesting speculation about Darkstar is debunked by his age.

Which, once again, is unknown. Not that I think Darkstar is Ned and Ashara's love child, but until we know his age THAT factor cannot be used to rule out even this remote possibility. Assumptions about Ser Gerold's age are not the same as knowledge of it.

My own favorite wild guess concerning the Darkstar is that he is a Targaryen descended from Aerion - the mad prince whose child is passed over by the Great Council.

[Mixta]

Which, once again, is unknown. Not that I think Darkstar is Ned and Ashara's love child, but until we know his age THAT factor cannot be used to rule out even this remote possibility. Assumptions about Ser Gerold's age are not the same as knowledge of it.

My own favorite wild guess concerning the Darkstar is that he is a Targaryen descended from Aerion - the mad prince whose child is passed over by the Great Council.

Can you explain the Aerion situation? That seems to be escaping my memory.

[Liadin]

Ned's character would be ruined if he had a bastard he hadn't acknowledged. I don't see him doing that. If he'd had to claim more than one, he'd've claimed more than one. And with Ashara dead, he'd've taken Darkstar to Winterfell had he been his son.

[Shewoman]

I don't think you're wrong in that Rhaegar did read a prophecy and thought that it meant he had to become a warrior - slightly different than a "great swordsman" - but the emphasis in that story must be on the word "thought." We don't know the exact wording of the prophecy Rhaegar read, nor do we know if Rhaegar changed his mind about what it meant after the incident you reference. He certainly changed his mind about himself as the PtwP, so it is not out of the question to think he may of changed his mind about the importance of the PtwP receiving military training. Myself, I wouldn't rule either Jon or Dany out as candidates without much more info.

[Rockroi]

1. It would be very lame indeed for Martin to introduce Jon's true parents, as characters, in the fourth book. I think that Jon's parents can be gleaned from info in the first book alone.

2.

Can you explain the Aerion situation? That seems to be escaping my memory.

Aerion Targaryen, a/k/a Aerion Brightflame and "The Prince Who Thought He Was A Dragon" was the first son of Maekar I, was brother to Egg (Aegon V) and Maester Aemon. Aerion was the principal antagonist in the Hedge Knight short story Martin wrote in Legends. After the events of Hedge Knight, Aerion is sent to ... I don't remember... Braavos?... the Summer Isles?... Cuba? Regardless, he returns to the 7 Kingdoms (at that point with 25% more Dorne) and has a fairly unspectacular daughter. One night, wicked drunk, he claims that if he drinks wildfire he will be transformed into a Dragon. It failed to turn him into a dragon, but did turn him into "a dead guy."

Aerion, obviously, was on the wrong side of that coin flip Jaeyenarys II spoke about.

[the silent speaker]

Nitpick: Aerion had a son. Daeron had the daughter, and she was a "lackwit" besides.

[SFDanny]

Can you explain the Aerion situation? That seems to be escaping my memory.

Sure, but let me do so, in order not to threadjack this one too badly, in this current thread dedicated to this topic.

[whisky127]

Question: Even if Jon is R+L, what are the odds it will have any significance in the books? Couldn't GRRM just end it with no one ever learning/already assuming his parentage in world?

that my thought

[The SmilingKnight]

Thats quite impossible.

Lyannas last words to Ned must be explained along with events at the Tower of Joy.

Jaime and Baristan surely know something about it, even if just pieces. Howland Reed has been absolutely absent from the story but cannot fail to show up. Mellisandre is searching for a rightful king in her flames... Its all converging from the background.

[Bastard of Winterfell]

@jurble

My belief is that if R+L=j is true, then it WILL be significant in the books as well. Otherwise what would be the point of it?

[Hedge Knight]

Which, once again, is unknown. Not that I think Darkstar is Ned and Ashara's love child, but until we know his age THAT factor cannot be used to rule out even this remote possibility. Assumptions about Ser Gerold's age are not the same as knowledge of it.

My own favorite wild guess concerning the Darkstar is that he is a Targaryen descended from Aerion - the mad prince whose child is passed over by the Great Council.

I agree with you, SF, that Darkstar is Targaryen. But I believe he might be Rhaegar's son Aegon with Elia. Darkstar is half crazy - a Targaryen trait and he HATES the Lannisters.

Darkstar also has interesting hair - the Targaryen silver white with a dark streak down the middle (Dornish??). He could have been switched before the fall of King's Landing and taken by the KG south to Dorne to be raised. Or maybe he was at the ToJ and Ned took him South after defeating the 3 KG at the Tower of Joy and that was his promise to Lyanna. Why else would 3 of the top KG be at the TOJ unless they were guarding the heir to the throne (Aegon).

And I am very much for R+L=J as well.

[jurble]

@jurble

My belief is that if R+L=j is true, then it WILL be significant in the books as well. Otherwise what would be the point of it?

To make the reader's bash their heads against the wall. Subvert the Hidden Prince trope. He is the hidden prince, but no character in the books puts it all together, and only we, the readers, ever know.

[SFDanny]

I agree with you, SF, that Darkstar is Targaryen. But I believe he might be Rhaegar's son Aegon with Elia. Darkstar is half crazy - a Targaryen trait and he HATES the Lannisters.

I think the best argument against this is not the Darkstar's unknown age, but rather Doran's response to him. It seems highly unlikely that the Targaryen heir is sitting in Dorne all these years without Doran's knowledge. Yet it is to Viserys that Doran schemes to marry his eldest child. It is Viserys that he plots to restore to the throne. Why not the hidden Aegon? No, I think there is little doubt after Dany's vision about a mummer's dragon that we will see at least one and maybe more people claim to be Aegon, and that raises the possibility that perhaps one of them really is the young prince, but I don't think whomever that would be is sitting in Dorne under Prince Doran's control for the past 17 years.

btw, I've kicked "Aegon the Darkstar" around these pages a few times myself, but as fun as it is, I think it doesn't really work very well. Just my opinion.

Darkstar also has interesting hair - the Targaryen silver white with a dark streak down the middle (Dornish??). He could have been switched before the fall of King's Landing and taken by the KG south to Dorne to be raised. Or maybe he was at the ToJ and Ned took him South after defeating the 3 KG at the Tower of Joy and that was his promise to Lyanna. Why else would 3 of the top KG be at the TOJ unless they were guarding the heir to the throne (Aegon).

And I am very much for R+L=J as well.

Well, let me just say I think the three kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy to guard the heir to the throne as well. I just think that heir was likely Jon - the legitimate son of a second marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Jackals Justice]

I think the best argument against this is not the Darkstar's unknown age, but rather Doran's response to him. It seems highly unlikely that the Targaryen heir is sitting in Dorne all these years without Doran's knowledge. Yet it is to Viserys that Doran schemes to marry his eldest child. It is Viserys that he plots to restore to the throne. Why not the hidden Aegon? No, I think there is little doubt after Dany's vision about a mummer's dragon that we will see at least one and maybe more people claim to be Aegon, and that raises the possibility that perhaps one of them really is the young prince, but I don't think whomever that would be is sitting in Dorne under Prince Doran's control for the past 17 years.

btw, I've kicked "Aegon the Darkstar" around these pages a few times myself, but as fun as it is, I think it doesn't really work very well. Just my opinion.

Well, let me just say I think the three kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy to guard the heir to the throne as well. I just think that heir was likely Jon - the legitimate son of a second marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Doran did call Darkstar the most Dangerous man in Dorne, now I don't doubt his prowess, but that could hint at his lineage.

[Hedge Knight]

I think the best argument against this is not the Darkstar's unknown age, but rather Doran's response to him. It seems highly unlikely that the Targaryen heir is sitting in Dorne all these years without Doran's knowledge. Yet it is to Viserys that Doran schemes to marry his eldest child. It is Viserys that he plots to restore to the throne. Why not the hidden Aegon? No, I think there is little doubt after Dany's vision about a mummer's dragon that we will see at least one and maybe more people claim to be Aegon, and that raises the possibility that perhaps one of them really is the young prince, but I don't think whomever that would be is sitting in Dorne under Prince Doran's control for the past 17 years.

btw, I've kicked "Aegon the Darkstar" around these pages a few times myself, but as fun as it is, I think it doesn't really work very well. Just my opinion.

Well, let me just say I think the three kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy to guard the heir to the throne as well. I just think that heir was likely Jon - the legitimate son of a second marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Would love to read some of your ideas on Darkstar if you can post the links.

Darkstar is obviously going to be an important character in future books or GRRM wouldn't have made such a big deal about him. So who are his parents? From what I know, there are 3 choices

- he could be Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia(more probable IMO).

-He could be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (doubtful as that is undoubtedly Jon).

-or the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne (possible but not probable as he really doesn't like Ser Arthur Dayne).

If Darkstar is Aegon (mother Elia) then he would be Doran Martel's nephew and Doran probably wouldn't want to marry his eldest daughter Arianne to her first cousin.

Well, let me just say I think the three kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy to guard the heir to the throne as well. I just think that heir was likely Jon - the legitimate son of a second marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

That would mean that the 3 KG left King's Landing before it fell and left the King, Queen, and Rhaegar's family including Aegon, the heir. They would never have done that. Ser Gerold Hightower even said to Ned at the TOJ that if they had been at KL, then the King would still be alive and the Kingslaye would be dead.

[Jackals Justice]

Would love to read some of your ideas on Darkstar if you can post the links.

Darkstar is obviously going to be an important character in future books or GRRM wouldn't have made such a big deal about him. So who are his parents? From what I know, there are 3 choices

- he could be Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia(more probable IMO).

-He could be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (doubtful as that is undoubtedly Jon).

-or the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne (possible but not probable as he really doesn't like Ser Arthur Dayne).

If Darkstar is Aegon (mother Elia) then he would be Doran Martel's nephew and Doran probably wouldn't want to marry his eldest daughter Arianne to her first cousin.

That would mean that the 3 KG left King's Landing before it fell and left the King, Queen, and Rhaegar's family including Aegon, the heir. They would never have done that. Ser Gerold Hightower even said to Ned at the TOJ that if they had been at KL, then the King would still be alive and the Kingslaye would be dead.

That's assuming they knew. Is it possible they were guarding the wrong child and didn't know it? I'm not sure on the ages of the babies.. How old would Jon have been and how old would Aegon have been?

[SFDanny]

Would love to read some of your ideas on Darkstar if you can post the links.

Thanks, I did post a link to my ideas about Ser Gerold in a post above. Here it is again. There are lots of other threads about the Darkstar - most filled with flames toward him - but a search will turn them up quickly. I've contributed to a few of them, including discussions about Ser Gerold possibly being Aegon.

Darkstar is obviously going to be an important character in future books or GRRM wouldn't have made such a big deal about him. So who are his parents? From what I know, there are 3 choices

- he could be Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia(more probable IMO).

-He could be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (doubtful as that is undoubtedly Jon).

-or the son of Ned and Ashara Dayne (possible but not probable as he really doesn't like Ser Arthur Dayne).

I think you leave out the choice with the greatest possibility of being correct - that Ser Gerold Dayne is the son of a cousin to the ruling family of House Dayne. That means his father was a Dayne and we have no idea who his mother would be. It is his mother's identity I find the most interesting and would refer you to the link above for my thoughts.

If Darkstar is Aegon (mother Elia) then he would be Doran Martel's nephew and Doran probably wouldn't want to marry his eldest daughter Arianne to her first cousin.

The marriage of cousins is recorded in other families in the series, in particular the Lannisters (Tywin and his wife.) It doesn't seem to bother anyone that cousins would marry.

That would mean that the 3 KG left King's Landing before it fell and left the King, Queen, and Rhaegar's family including Aegon, the heir. They would never have done that. Ser Gerold Hightower even said to Ned at the TOJ that if they had been at KL, then the King would still be alive and the Kingslaye would be dead.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Of course, the three Kingsguard left King's Landing before it fell. They weren't there. We know only Jaime, of the Kingsguard members, was assigned by Rhaegar to be with Aerys and Rhaegar's family. Now, there were also many thousands of armed soldiers in one of the most secure fortresses in Westeros, with an easy escape route by ship (Robert's forces have no navy at the time,) and a entire second army loyal to the crown mobilized around Storm's End, so the Targaryens are hardly left defenseless or without resources. So, it's not a case of "they would never have done that." They did that. It's just that with Aerys's mad decision to let the Lannisters in the gates, none of the defenses made a difference.

The whereabouts of each of the three Kingsguard at the Tower is a question of hot debate. We know of only one of their members location between Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy events. That being Ser Gerold Hightower's presence with Jaime when the Starks are killed. For the months in between, they could have been almost anywhere, but my guess is that Whent and Dayne are with Rhaegar and Lyanna at the Tower and Ser Gerold is sent to find his prince after the Battle of the Bells. Rhaegar then goes north (with whom is anyone's guess) leaving the trio under strict orders to safeguard Lyanna, and possibly the child she is carrying. My point is that sometime before Rhaegar goes north he and Lyanna marry. This is a second wife for Rhaegar, who is still married to Elia, but this is done in keeping with the old Targaryen custom of polygamous marriage. My guess is that Jon is therefore born shortly before Ned arrives and is the rightful heir to the throne. It explains the continued presence of the trio over the troubling aspects of conflicting vows between following Rhaegar's orders and what would be their duty if Viserys was their new king.

btw, it's my opinion that Ned and Howland don't know about Lyanna's and Rhaegar's wedding. They think Jon is a bastard. Lyanna is dying when Ned finds her and reminiscences of her wedding day are not high on her agenda. She wants Ned to promise to safeguard her and Rhaegar's son - pure and simple. Regarding any other possible people at the Tower - Wylla, a maester, a septon, or other servants - I don't think they have any incentive to tell Ned and Howland, if they know, that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne. I expect we will find out this part of the story from a different source (probably Wylla or one of those unnamed denizens of the Tower) than Howland Reed, or Ser Barristan or some other friend of Rhaegar's.

Spoiler

Grif, or his "son" young Grif, may well be a source of information, and there will be at least one other story about Jon's birth from a altogether new source in ADwD - if preview chapters and readings are any clue.

[SFDanny]

That's assuming they knew. Is it possible they were guarding the wrong child and didn't know it? I'm not sure on the ages of the babies.. How old would Jon have been and how old would Aegon have been?

There are "eight or nine months," according to Martin, between Jon and Daenerys. Dany was born "nine moons" after the flight from King's Landing, which puts Jon's birth between the time of the sack to a month or so later. Aegon is about a year old when the sack and his, seeming, murder takes place. So, Jon is 17 at the time of the events in AFfC, and ADwD, and a still alive Aegon would be 18 to 19.

[Sylmaril]

Wow SFDanny I really liked your theory about Aerion's descendants, especially the part involving the Queen of Thornes, you're a genius!^^

Untill now I've never considered Darkstar more than a Dayne, Martin himself stated that the Daynes are not descended at all from Valyrian blood, and still they can have violet eyes and fair hair..

So I find your wild pet theory more convincing than all the detailed descriptions of Darkstar's features. =P