Exercise & Fitness VII

[Fleeing Finn]

I don't do much in the way of hamstring-specific training, but of course I do some exercises which strengthens the hamstrings along with other muscles (like deadlifts, back squats, cleans and snatches). I don't think any of these exercises really do anything to reduce the risk of hamstring injuries. If you know some exercises which do, I would of course be happy to learn about them. :)

You could try something called "natural GHR".

Keep your back straight throughout the motion. Start by falling forward and focus on slowing your way down with a controlled eccentric contraction of the hams. When your about to hit the floor just push yourself up and help out with a concentric contraction. Repeat.

This is an exercise you should do after your squats or deadlifts as an assistant exercise. After every set you should stretch the hams. If you do it right you'll notice why... The exercise is very tough on the hams but it should help building them to take on quite a strain.

[Vethnar]

seastarr:

Wow, that's a much longer and more detailed reply than I had dared hope for. Thanks a lot for all your advice! :)

Today I'm feeling more optimistic, and am happily jumping around at great speed on my right leg.

Can you describe more specifically what you were doing when you injured it, particularly, were the muscles extended or fully engaged? (if you can discern this, I know it is hard, and it might be some of each...)

It happened at one of the first few steps while accelerating from what we call a "falling start" (standing straight up, allowing the body to fall forwards until it forms a quite sharp angle with the ground, and then start running and accelerating as fast as possible). I am not entirely sure, but I think it happened while the hip and knee were extending explosively with the foot in contact with the ground.

Good luck.

Thanks. :)

I'll try to follow your advice (I hope I can find one of those foam rollers), and will try to keep you all updated about how it goes.

[Vethnar]

You could try something called "natural GHR".

Keep your back straight throughout the motion. Start by falling forward and focus on slowing your way down with a controlled eccentric contraction of the hams. When your about to hit the floor just push yourself up and help out with a concentric contraction. Repeat.

This is an exercise you should do after your squats or deadlifts as an assistant exercise. After every set you should stretch the hams. If you do it right you'll notice why... The exercise is very tough on the hams but it should help building them to take on quite a strain.

Thanks! I have seen that exercise before, but never tried it. I will give it a try as soon as my leg is working again. It does look tough, though. I'm not sure I will be able to do it after a few sets of heavy squats or deadlifts.

[cjfshaw]

I am a bit confused here. I thought that a pull happened because of a movement that was too quick or too 'exagerated' (don't know how to word it better) than the muscle was ready to handle. But saying to do more hamstring specific exercises seems to imply that it is the strength of the muscle that can prevent pulls. Can anyone clarify?

[Happy Ent]

Another 12 km. Slightly faster now, 69 minutes (down from 72). Total 106 km. Triple digits, hehe.

[cjfshaw]

Another 12 km. Slightly faster now, 69 minutes (down from 72). Total 106 km. Triple digits, hehe.

Nice dude! I am actually going to start running longer distances again, but definitely nothing over 7 miles, and probably just 1-3 miles runs more often than not.

So I have a bit of a success story to share here. One of my friends plays on her soccer team in college. At the beginning of every year their coach sees who can run a 6 minute mile. Last year only one team member managed it, and she jut graduated. So my friend wanted to set that as her goal during the summer, she wanted to get faster and up her endurance, but specifically to get that 6 minute mile. So she asked me to help her out since she knew I was a runner and I said yeah sure. So over the course of this past summer we would meet up once or twice a week and do some running workouts, and on the days we didn't meet up she'd run on her own. Well today was the first official day of training and she dropped a full 2 minutes off her PR for the mile by running a 7:30, it wasn't the 6 min mile but it was still a great improvement. In only 3 months she dropped her mile time by 2 minutes. So then she texts me today to tell me this and also that a lot of her teammates were complimenting her on how fast she got and a professional trainer that the coach brought in to help out asked where she trained this summer. So now I have to start running again so we can get her down to that 6 minute mile next year, lol.

[ztemhead]

I have a question for anyone with better than a passing familiarity with the human anatomy. If Dr. Flayed is around, that would be balls-out.

I have a torn meniscus in my left knee. No big poop, I can still be running, climbing, weight lifting Adventure Mikey, just can't do twisting, spinning, throwing, hitting stuff. I was told by TWO separate Knowledgeable People, one a personal trainer, powerlifter, and world record holder in deadlift; and the other a D. O., (random encounter, not my actual doctor) that I should restrict myself from certain lifts as they can aggrivate the problem over time.

They both said exercises in which I push down are fine. (Incidentally, powerlifter guy said going deep in squats is a great way to preserve the knee.) It's the ones where I'm thrusting my foot forward using the knee as a pivot point that I have to watch out for. Some examples would be leg extensions and split squats. The issue I have is, I NEED THOSE MUSCLES TO WORK. Today just for kicks I tried doing split squats with dumbells, and my balance was awful. Also I surmise that my squats and deadlifts would be better if I could work the part of the muscle responsible for extensions.

So, does anyone want to take a stab and tell me those folks were both full of bunk? Am I wishful thinking when I should just make like a bridge and get over it?

[Fleeing Finn]

Also I surmise that my squats and deadlifts would be better if I could work the part of the muscle responsible for extensions.

Squats and deads get better by doing squats and deads. If you can't do split squats or extensions it's not a problem. Sttuff you mentioned can help you fix some imbalances or isolate certain muscles but is by no means necessary. Generally I wouldn't worry about assistance exercises until it's impossible for you to break a plateau without resorting to them. And even then there's lots of stuff you can do without aggravating the knee.

[ztemhead]

don't you think it's odd, and possibly hinders my training, that I can squat 225 for sets of 10, but can only do leg extensions of 80 lbs?

[Xray the Enforcer]

First day back at the gym. Due to a lot of factors (mostly relating to me not having much of an immune system right now), today is the first day I managed to get up early enough to work out. I took it slow -- 30 minutes of cardio, pull-ups, chest presses, shoulder presses, knee extensions and a couple of weighted exercises that work the muscles of the rotator cuff.

I'm feeling pretty good -- I've been in a serious funk for a week -- and I had multiple people ask me about Seastarr's Famous Hamstring Stretch when I was doing same after my workout. Seastarr, your fame spreads!

Saw my trainer, too, and had a nice chat. I will probably start training again in mid-Sept, after I figure out what my new limits are post-2-month hiatus. To that end, I'm not terribly bad off. I mean, I went back down to 10lb dumb bells for chest when I was doing 15-20lb before. I could have probably done 12.5 (and probably will on Wednesday) and been OK, but might as well not do something wildly stupid my first day back. Tomorrow, squats et al.

[Vestrit]

I am a bit confused here. I thought that a pull happened because of a movement that was too quick or too 'exagerated' (don't know how to word it better) than the muscle was ready to handle. But saying to do more hamstring specific exercises seems to imply that it is the strength of the muscle that can prevent pulls. Can anyone clarify?

You’re right in that an injury like a pull often happens from the leg moving too quickly or taking too big a load before it’s ready.

But sometimes a hamstring injury (and other leg injuries) can be because of an imbalance in the relative strength of the muscles in the leg, glutes and lower back.

Your quadriceps muscles are stronger than your hamstrings. As long as the difference in ratio isn’t much more than 100:70/65ish, then generally that’s ok. What I mean by that is that if you could lift 100lbs doing leg extensions (using just your quads), you should be able to do 65/70 or even 80lbs doing leg curls (just your hamstrings). Some people will say the 'correct' ratio is 100:80, other say 100:65 is ok.

However, in a lot of people and particularly in women, the imbalance is more than that and their hamstrings are significantly weaker than their quadriceps. You can extend 100lbs but only curl say 45 or 55lb.

This imbalance can cause a lot of injuries, most notoriously an ACL rupture (and is one of the reasons why women suffer proportionately six to eight times as many ACLs as men). So any good sports specific training programme should have hamstring specific work and exercises like the one Fleeing Finn has shown, so you can prevent pull, tears and worse.

One other issue here, and it’s addressed in the exercise that Fleeing Finn has shown, is to do with the relationship between hamstring (and other) injuries and whether the strength chain is working properly.

That exercise that FF calls GHR (I know it as ‘Russian curls’) also hits the glutes and gets the glutes and hammies firing together. A common problem among the players I coach is a failure for the glutes to fire properly or for the strength chain (back, glutes, hamstrings) to fire together properly. Hence you get an injury like a hamstring pull or tear because the lower back and glutes aren’t carrying enough of the load or firing in the correct sequence and thus the hammy gets overloaded. Or you get calf problems because the calves are having to do too much work and eventually start failing.

The GHR is one great (yet brutal) way of addressing this. Another way is getting a theraband and doing monster walks and crab walks to pre-engage the strength chain before exercise, so they’re primed to fire properly.

And, it should probably go without saying, doing squats.

[Vestrit]

Bloody hell, I came on here to give an injury update and ended up writing a thesis on quad:hamstring strength ratios :P

Anyway, still at physio twice a week. Have advanced into the ‘lower limb rehabilitation class’. So I don’t get a dedicated one-to-one spot with a physio; instead I’m there as part of a group all doing our prescribed exercise programmes under the supervision and occasional intervention of the physios.

It’s good if quite tough. A couple of wee bits of progress today:

The first was that I’ve been finding some of the balancing work a bit boring; basically you stand on varying unstable surfaces on just one foot and throw a ball against the wall. I was getting my balance very easily and having to throw the ball faster and faster against the wall to make the exercise harder. So they’ve changed that one to make it tougher for me, which is good.

The second is that the physio discussed running again for the first time today. Sounds like I’m still a way off, but he showed me where I was on the chart of predicted progress, and the next thing is deceleration training. So not far off running and jumping now. As soon as the knee stops reacting to the current work with swelling and soreness, they’ll move onto that stuff.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Keep the courage, Vestrit. I'm super-glad to hear that rehab is coming along so well. :cheers:

[seastarr]

ztem I am just not understanding fully what you have been told not to do (that's more my problem and I'll go learn the vocab shortly--a little pressed for time this morning). I understand why you might not be comfortable doing twistings and torsions with your knee. Most people shouldn't be comfortable with that, since the knee is a HINGE.

I do not understand why you cannot do extensions. Wait, let me caveat that statement. I understand why you might mot want to do extensions with load. But I think you can and should begin with isometric extensions to help you learn how to stabilize your knee. Now, a lot of times when you have a torn meniscus, the junk from the tear itself will prevent the knee from attaining full extension. You can work with this. I have seen it change a hundred times in people who are up to 70 years old.

So when you are doing my completely hum-drum hamstring stretch that I cannot believe people have never seen before (the one lying on the floor, with the belt? BTW I did not invent this--it's a yoga posture) you can practice pulling up into your quads and making them HARD AS A ROCK. Your knee cap should pull upwards when you do this. Stretch-a-licious.

Now, notice that you can achieve that firmness in three places: outer side of lower thigh/quad, middle of lower thigh/quad, and inner side of lower thigh/quad. Focus on that inner one, because it is usually last to fire and it only happens in the tail end of full extension.

This is how ballet dancers stabilize the knee in extension when they are balanced en pointe.

(but that's not any reason not to practice it)

I know its not tough like weights, but I believe it will be helpful to your knee.

I do not know what split squats are so I cannot help you there. But it's fun just imagining exercises to go with that name.

More later. Vethnar I have ideas about your hamstrings, but not enough time to express them well.

Xray I am sure glad you are back.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

X-ray - congrats on being back at the gym :)

I had a good workout weekend - cardio and lifting on Saturday. Then I painted a bathroom. I think I'm more sore from the painting than anything else. Sunday I ran about 4.5 miles. Helped with the stiffness, but there are definitely muscles in my shoulders that I did not know I had.

[Vestrit]

Keep the courage, Vestrit. I'm super-glad to hear that rehab is coming along so well. :cheers:

Cheers mate

Good to see you've gotten yourself back into the gym too :D

[cjfshaw]

Ultramarathons and the people who run them are insane. I just started reading a book called Born to Run and it is absurd. He talks about a race that lasts for 2 straight days where the guy who ran the farthest ran 450 miles. Absurd, and inpsiring.

[lessthanluke]

don't you think it's odd, and possibly hinders my training, that I can squat 225 for sets of 10, but can only do leg extensions of 80 lbs?

Leg extensions are a waste of space.

[Greywolf2375]

Leg extensions are a waste of space.

I dunno, in the middle of a good hammy work out I like to do 2 sets of 50 to flush out. Seems to work pretty well.

[lessthanluke]

I dunno, in the middle of a good hammy work out I like to do 2 sets of 50 to flush out. Seems to work pretty well.

Flush out?