The Walking Dead - TV show SPOILERS only (not for the comic)

[Insert Edit]

Again, that's the weakest excuse and it doesn't work. Sorry.

Meh. Sure, if there's gaping 'drive a semi through' plot or logic holes in a story that take you out of the story and make you think 'hey I'm watching bad TV!' - then that's one thing.

But c'mon, we all know people who sit at movies and endlessly nit-pick about tiny plot points. They're tiresome, because you can do that with anything. At some point you decide to buy in, or you opt out.

If you opt out, great for you. I generally opt out of the horror genre in advance, because MOST of it is dreck that is so filled with plot holes and illogical behavior that it makes it impossible to enjoy (or I start cheering for the bad guys).

But for a guy who purposely avoids most horror stuff, and who has never read a graphic novel in his life - I'm enjoying this show. It doesn't HAVE huge gaping plot holes that take you out of the story, imo. I can overlook the small things because I make a conscious decision to buy in.

The fact that the characters in the show are incredibly flawed and fallible ADDS to the attraction, for me, it doesn't detract from it.

YRMV.

[Insert Edit]

Or to put it another way - the group could be led by Jack Bauer or Chuck Norris, and every week they'd lay a beatin' down on the hapless zombies, and I'd have deleted it from my PVR list after the initial episode.

[Yagathai]

Or to put it another way - the group could be led by Jack Bauer or Chuck Norris, and every week they'd lay a beatin' down on the hapless zombies, and I'd have deleted it from my PVR list after the initial episode.

FACT: That's not called a zombie apocalypse. The zombies call that a Chuck Norris apocalypse.

[Arthmail]

I think you answered part of your misunderstanding in what I'm saying in your first paragraph. I am not arguing the camp shouldn't have been overrun, and I should be more clear about it. But written as is the plot point seems contrived. They should have had more than one line of defense, it's common sense--as I said with my sick son, those first two months I hardly slept at all. And I absolutely fucked up and made mistakes. So translate that to the fiction here. They have more than tin cans, they have guards, and hell, let's give these morons a bit more cred and have them build some defensive structures. And then while they're eating fish fry, FEELING very safe, one of their sentries sits down and falls asleep and the zombies make their way in. Or his lack of training, or his lack of night vision goggles let him get surprised. It would far better illustrate the reality of surviving in a post apocalyptic world vs. our views of how easy it would be. But the fact this is treated like a camp out just makes it hard to feel for the survivors.

I mean look at 28 Weeks Later, the fate of the small group on foot is far more effective because of the mistakes the battle hardened soldiers make. The Delta Force sniper is heroic and someone you want to completely trust in that movie, but he makes some very poor decisions. Tragedy works better when there seems to be an effective plan for survival in place.

Second, as for the mentioning of zombies--well there are a number of fantastic reasons we could discuss in depth as to why they don't say the word. As a writer who is trying to get his own zombie novel published, I can tell you from my experience my characters never say zombies either. They say undead, walking dead, or some variation. But they know about zombies in my book, and it's made very clear in a few instances by mentioning a few famous movies they watched. The reason I don't use the word "zombie" isn't because it's a non zombie world, but because the word "zombie" indicates b movie status. As many zombie movies makers, and obviously the Walking Dead as well, these films aspire to be better than b movies for the most part, given the lofty expectations set by the first pop culture zombie film, Night of the Living Dead. That movie proved this genre is wonderful for developing social commentary and studying human character. My assumption in any film or book that doesn't say "zombie" is to keep from putting themselves in the b movie category right out of the cage.

Any time I am asked what my book is about I have noticed a STARK contrast between when I say "it's a zombie novel" or "it's an apocalyptic novel about the end of the world." The second often is responded to more favorably. It's the reason I originally omitted the word "zombie" in the rewrite.

The lack of knowledge of zombies worked in Night of Living Dead and its sequels because those line of movies created zombies. But hell, even in later sequels like Land of the Dead and the horrid Diary of the Dead, mentions the word "zombie". To say newer films don't mention it because zombies don't exist in that world just doesn't fly. Give the recent mainstream run of zombie movies another thirty years and they'll be like vampires, you can probably mention "zombies" with only about fifty percent of the people rolling their eyes.

Anyway, you're right. Why can Rick walk? Another example of the laziness of the writing. This show could be amazing, but it's taking too many narrative shortcuts.

I'm saying its not a contrived plot point. You seem to be conciously ignoring the idea that these people are not soldiers. So, your son got sick and you were worried about him. Understandable. Some people are not like that. Some people get complacent easily, or they forget. I think it would have been really cheesy if they had showed a guard falling asleep, or getting called in for supper. That is lazy writing, because what are the odds that it would happen just as a couple of shambling zombies were ready to show up? A guy in the woods might have made more sense, but again......

they have not seen much of anything for a month. Glen goes into the city all of the time, because he's quick and fearless, and nothing follows him back. So they get complacent. Its not that hard to understand. Its not lazy writing, its authentic.

And surviving in a post apocalyptic world is not as easy as you seem to think it is, at least in terms of getting used to it. In the Stand, i liked how Stephen King dealt with that issue, basically wiping out a percentage of the remaining population just because they did stupid things. You go and cut off all social and governmental frameworks, but do it only recently, and people will still be too caught up in how life WAS. I mean, i think they even mention waiting for help to arrive. That means they think there is still a government to save them. Amy thought maybe Florida was not as bad hit. More of a wish, but these people clearly do not think that they are living in end times.

People, when faced with a situation for which they are clearly out of their depth, often wait for someone to take charge. They look to someone else to solve their problems. Shane is a cop, he takes charge because that is how it has always been, and his choice was ultimately a poor one. Up until the attack, it had been a decent enough choice. A good source of water, only one zombie, fish, and the notion of safety. That that was not the cause does not make it any less likely that people would feel safe and secure. And it doesn't mean they'd go making wooden forts to protect themselves. At least not yet. They had a lesson to learn first.

They also don't mention the words undead, walking dead aside from in the title...oh, wait, they refer to themselves as the walking dead. There is no indication they have any basis for knowledge of the idea. And as for Romero mentioning it in later films...well, he was never very good at making movies after the first few in any case.

Perhaps in thirty years zombies will be directly referenced in zombie films, but they are not right now. In 28 Days Later, never once do they say zombies.

And the plan in 28 Weeks Later was equally as dumb. I mean, come on. Risk your lives to keep a few kids alive? Things have gone completely down hill, in every way possible. Take a blood sample from the boy and fuck off with it. Easy as that. Don't fly out of the city, grab a car and drive out, because by that time most of the country had been abandoned. (In truth, while i liked the movie, there were WAY too many problems with 28 Weeks Later)

As a side note: if you won't acknowledge suspension of disbelief, then you must not watch or read much of anything. Super heroes don't exist, so a movie about a guy with super healing and adamantium claws would mean too much suspension. There is no magic or dragons, so A Song of Fire and Ice is done.

I'm sure they're showing reruns of Anne of Green Gabels somewhere.

[TheBigTEA]

I would like to say that while there are some parts of this show that do not make sense to me (Merl cutting his hand off for one) for the VAST majority of the time I think it is great. Also the fact that something like this got approved for TV is something we need to celebrate and get behind. Who would have ever thought a show would be on TV that shows a little zombie girl getting shot in the face by an officer of the law? That either says something great, or something really terrible about the state of TV in the US.

I had a friend that told me I HAD to go to the Dungeon and Dragons movie despite the fact the reviews said it sucked and I could not understand why he wanted me to go. He told me because if someone did not go, then they would never make another movie like it.

Reign of Fire had some huge plot holes, but I loved that movie too. Lord of the Rings was not exactly the same as the books and it too had some issues, but I loved it..and so did a million other people, and now they are making more and more movies like it.

Hmm....got a little off track there, I fully support the show, and I have read the first 48 issues of the comic too.

[red snow]

Shooting zombies in the head is pointless to discuss. People know what they are because of pop culture, they know these real zombies want to eat humans and follow loud noises, what more do you need to set up a rudimentary defense system of roving patrols in addition to cans on a string. How to best kill your enemy is something learned first hand, that's obvious. You don't learn "zombie survival skills" from zombie movies. But you know what they are.

This show is throwing a lot of logic out the window.

At least here we can semi-agree. It's a shame to never mention the fact that zombies were in pop-culture but I guess that's as much a part of the show's set up as having the walking dead exist. It doesn't sound as if you'll be around long enough to see it (if the show ever gets that far) but recent issues of the comic have this very same group behaving in much the way you'd like them too. So they get there in the end - the ones who aren't stupid/unlucky enough to be killed that is.

I hope to God you haven't been watching "sons of Anarchy" recently as I'm having a similar reaction as you to that show at the moment (and they don't even have zombies in it)

[Fiddler]

And the argument isn't how to defend against zombies because of pop culture, it's how to use common fucking sense in an emergency.

My experience has always been that if you get 3-5 people together, then they stand a good chance of being level headed and use common sense in an emergency. Anything over 5, such as the group in the show, and the stupid comes out.

Whether or not this group knows about zombies or perimeter security is moot. The truth comes in the form that they let the cop lead him and let him make the decisions. So, in reality, the only really dumb person that makes dumb decisions is the cop. I don't see whats so hard to believe about that, seen a lot of dumb people in authoritative positions.

Honestly, I think this group, IMO, is likely what a group that size would be like in real life. That is until the zombies found them, like they did last episode. Now, if they repeat these mistakes again, then I will find it difficult to believe. I honestly believe that at least 80% of the people in America would completly fall apart if this were to ever happen. Modern day Americans are not equipped to deal with the total breakdown of the country. At least, thats my opinion.

[delete this account pls]

That's why I don't really get the nitpicking criticisms. We were shown, a whole bunch of times in fact, that the camp did have security. It had at least one, and maybe more, lookouts posted at most times. It was isolated, on top of a mountain with only one road in and out. And it had an 'early warning system' with the tin cans on strings.

These people weren't sitting in the open waiting to die. They were very aware of the danger, and had taken precautions. Were those precautions inadequate? Well yeah, obviously, that was the lesson they learned in the most recent attack. But if you think your own plan can't be picked apart and scorned in the same way, you're kidding yourself. And I'll say it again - suggesting what *you* would do in this situation is beside the point, because YOU are not a character in this show.

Also, the way the survivors reacted to the attack, quickly gathering around Shane in a group and then moving towards the RV while Shane covered them, that suggested to me that they'd actually practiced this before, maybe even ran a few drills. All things considered, I actually thought they dealt with the attack fairly well.

I think there's a lot more chance of them trying that with Daryrl than with Merle although if Merle was to somehow forgive them and help out he's a lotter bigger man than I am. If they keep Darryl around it will add something for the comic fans as we won't know how long they'll keep him.

The reason I wondered about Merle was his little dehydration soliloquy, particularly the part where he started calling to Jesus for help, and said something like “I’m sorry, I know I’m being punished, I know I’m being punished.” It could have just been feverish ramblings, but I wondered if Merle, facing what he thought was his own death, wasn’t having a little epiphany. Or at least the start of one.

I agree that Darryl seems more likely to stick around though. He’s a Boondock Saint! Not exactly an A-List celebrity, but a recognisable actor, so I don't expect it to be a bit part.

[delete this account pls]

Anyway, that's enough arguing about zombie survival skills from me, I'd rather talk about other stuff. So my thoughts in general so far;

There haven't been many funny moments so far, but the few they've shown have made me smile. From the end of episode two, when someone asks where Glenn is, and then we cut to Glenn zooming down the empty freeway screaming "Woooooo!" Or Darryl's grudging admiration for Glenn in episode 4; "You got balls for a Chinaman." "I'm Korean." "Whatever." Or Darryl getting angry when Shane called Merle a douchebag, and telling him "choose your words more carefully," and Shanes quick and earnest response - "Oh no, I meant douchebag."

And speaking of Shane, I really enjoy the ambiguity of his character. Actually, despite his total dick move, I kinda like the guy. I sort of hope we never find out why he lied, because I get the impression he doesn't really know himself. Did he lie because he knew Lori and Carl would never leave otherwise? Did he actually believe Rick was dead? Was he just taking advantage of the apocalypse to have some hot end-of-the-world-sex? He's all mixed up. Rick really is his best friend - we saw that when Rick got shot. Shane's concern was totally genuine. But balanced against that? Rick's wife is pretty hot.

And it's just a little detail, but I like how they call zombies 'geeks'.

[awesome possum]

These people weren't sitting in the open waiting to die. They were very aware of the danger, and had taken precautions. Were those precautions inadequate? Well yeah, obviously, that was the lesson they learned in the most recent attack. But if you think your own plan can't be picked apart and scorned in the same way, you're kidding yourself. And I'll say it again - suggesting what *you* would do in this situation is beside the point, because YOU are not a character in this show.

Precisely. One of the first things I did after moving to Bloomington from Detroit was create a zombie apocalypse contingency plan. I figured out the best escape routes, places to stop and forage/loot that were off the beaten path (domestic violence shelters... for real. My wife worked in a few of them and they almost always have a large storeroom full of food and chances are would be abandoned), and the safest, quickest route to both a temporary and long-term hideout.

It was all in good fun, and I know I'll never need this plan. I also know that if a true zombie apocalypse happened, I'd likely be dead within a week. I have a type-1 diabetic wife (who is essentially screwed once she runs out of insulin, unless I risk going into pharmacies for refills) and a two-month old daughter who shrieks like a siren when hungry. Unless I left them behind I'd have little chance of going far on foot, and if I left them behind the guilt of doing so would probably kill me before long.

It's the same as being pissed off at a friend/family member/co-worker and in your head you compose these awesome diatribes and insults to unleash the next time you see them, but will you ever actually speak these words? And if you did, would they ever come out just as you planned in your head?

My point is, all the plans in the world amount to jack squat when faced with the situation up close and personal.

[Crazydog7]

It really is scary, leaving zombie Armageddon aside how most of us really wouldn't know how to get food if all of the stores had already been looted. I know the Piggly Wiggly distribution point for the tricounty but that is over 20 miles away. And easily seen from the interstate so by the time I got anywhere near it people would already be fighting over the ruins.

[TrueMetis]

It really is scary, leaving zombie Armageddon aside how most of us really wouldn't know how to get food if all of the stores had already been looted. I know the Piggly Wiggly distribution point for the tricounty but that is over 20 miles away. And easily seen from the interstate so by the time I got anywhere near it people would already be fighting over the ruins.

Get yourself a crossbow and a book on how to cut meat and how to find edible herbs.