The Walking Dead - TV show SPOILERS only (not for the comic)

[TheHalfman]

I'm not giving the show any leeway at all because of the comic. I've never read the comic and never plan on doing so. I'm enjoying it on it's own merits. The pilot was an amazing hour of television, and that's why I give the show a lot of leeway. Sure, none of the episodes since have been as good, but I don't think any of them have been bad, either.

I hope Merle doesn't come back as a simple villain. I'm kinda hoping they're doing a Deadwood with his character - introducing him in the worst possible light, and then attempting to make us feel more sympathetic with him. I also think Darryl has a lot of potential. From what we've seen so far, he seems more like he's stupidly ignorant, rather than an out-and-out racist like his brother.

I just started reading the comic today actually, because of the show. I bought the compendium (issues 1 to 48) on Amazon and it showed up today, loving it so far. Definitely a lot more characters in the TV show. As far as Merle, I doubt his stay on the show will be very long, he'll be going down in his next appearance. Darryl might stick around though, and I agree, he has potential.

[red snow]

I hope Merle doesn't come back as a simple villain. I'm kinda hoping they're doing a Deadwood with his character - introducing him in the worst possible light, and then attempting to make us feel more sympathetic with him. I also think Darryl has a lot of potential. From what we've seen so far, he seems more like he's stupidly ignorant, rather than an out-and-out racist like his brother.

Yeah .... they should put this before every episode as a Nerd Disclaimer.

Man, I can't wait till Game of Thrones starts and everyone here sharply criticises Will from the prologue for his poor Wight Survival skills :P

I think there's a lot more chance of them trying that with Daryrl than with Merle although if Merle was to somehow forgive them and help out he's a lotter bigger man than I am. If they keep Darryl around it will add something for the comic fans as we won't know how long they'll keep him. For similar reasons, I think it would be interesting if they keep one of the characters alive who dies early in the comics

maybe keep shane around for just a little longer or kill him in a different way

I think the truth behind the "should they have defended the camp?" debate lies somewhere between "yes they should have had some attempt of security (other than string cans that don't work)/not all be sitting in tents/eating" and "No, it would have been unrealistic to build a death-star as they don't have any empire technicians with them"

I'm treating this thread as a warm up for AGOT airing. This will be absolutely nothing compared to the criticism that will appear on that show. It will also be slightly more bizarre because at least with "walking dead's" "real-world" settings it is easier to draw comparisons. At least we will see new factions appear with the new subspecies of "fans who love the book and really hate the show" and "fans who love the book and passionately defend the show (even if it turns out to be shit). Much like the whole ,

Will should have also known that others don't like the dragon flint and have carried a dagger made from the stuff at all times. Or he should have at least read the books (or other epic fantasies) before venturing beyond the wall.

[Balefont]

Will should have also known that others don't like the dragon flint and have carried a dagger made from the stuff at all times. Or he should have at least read the books (or other epic fantasies) before venturing beyond the wall.

See, I've been giving this a lot of thought. (Not about Wil but about TWD's setting.) Being set in presumably our world, you mean to tell me that not one of these survivors has read or seen a movie or tv show that had to do with a) a zombie apocalypse (Diary of the Dead, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, Resident Evil, 28 Days Later - to name a few), b ) a viral apocalypse (The Stand, etc.), c) a nuclear apocalypse (Jericho), or books/movies like The Postman? Something?! Anything that might provide even some minimal insight to survival in an end-of-the-world setting?

To me, I think that is more unreasonable than accepting that all these people aren't clueless but behaving quite naturally.

At least AGoT is completely removed from our current reality and therefore has a lot more wiggle-room in the face of criticism.

[Arthmail]

See, I've been giving this a lot of thought. (Not about Wil but about TWD's setting.) Being set in presumably our world, you mean to tell me that not one of these survivors has read or seen a movie or tv show that had to do with a) a zombie apocalypse (Diary of the Dead, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, Resident Evil, 28 Days Later - to name a few), b ) a viral apocalypse (The Stand, etc.), c) a nuclear apocalypse (Jericho), or books/movies like The Postman? Something?! Anything that might provide even some minimal insight to survival in an end-of-the-world setting?

To me, I think that is more unreasonable than accepting that all these people aren't clueless but behaving quite naturally.

At least AGoT is completely removed from our current reality and therefore has a lot more wiggle-room in the face of criticism.

You ever heard them mention the word zombies? In most zombie movies they don't mention the word zombies, though the late great Dennis Hopper had an awesome line about them in Romero's flick.

And a viral apocalypse is so much different than this. Besides, even when people are trained again and again for a specific action - such as first aid - they often flub it a little under the adrenaline high or pressure. That these people, all untrained, seem a little lost is no real surprise. This is beyond the scope of their understanding.

Besides, they've had one attack on their camp. They lost a few people, sure, but they aren't actually doing THAT bad.

[Mexal]

See, I've been giving this a lot of thought. (Not about Wil but about TWD's setting.) Being set in presumably our world, you mean to tell me that not one of these survivors has read or seen a movie or tv show that had to do with a) a zombie apocalypse (Diary of the Dead, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, Resident Evil, 28 Days Later - to name a few), b ) a viral apocalypse (The Stand, etc.), c) a nuclear apocalypse (Jericho), or books/movies like The Postman? Something?! Anything that might provide even some minimal insight to survival in an end-of-the-world setting?

To me, I think that is more unreasonable than accepting that all these people aren't clueless but behaving quite naturally.

At least AGoT is completely removed from our current reality and therefore has a lot more wiggle-room in the face of criticism.

Pretty sure this has been discussed before but almost all Zombie Apocalypse movies take place in a world where Zombies are not part of pop culture.

[danro]

... Being set in presumably our world...

I think you're making the wrong assumption here.

The usual zombie setting differs from our world in 2 key areas.

1. Zombies exist.
2. Zombies in pop-culture does not exist.

The entire Shaun of the Dead movie is basically built around changing the setting by removing point 2 and exploring the resulting absurdities.

[red snow]

Hold on a second, someone would be intelligent to base their knowledge of how to deal with "real-life" zombies based on pop culture fiction surrounding zombies? That would be pretty insane, unless they accepted that pop culture was based on historical fact. If you instantly thought "go for the brains" you'd potentially waste a lot of ammo, safer to go for a chest shot first and if that doesn't work consider the brain angle.

It's like in vampire films where people throw a cross in the vampire's face and it tosses it away because it's merely superstition and the person who was using his pop-culture winds up dead.

I do agree that it is frustrating that zombie culture appears to be non-existent in a lot of shows/films but it would still be mad to presume they'd behave the same even if they were in pop-culture. That said Zombie survival guides do provide generally useful rule of thumb tips :)

[awesome possum]

Pretty sure this has been discussed before but almost all Zombie Apocalypse movies take place in a world where Zombies are not part of pop culture.

That's key, and I don't quite see how it's so difficult a concept.

Also, you can read/watch all the survival/post-apocalyptic movies you want, but that doesn't mean you'll suddenly be better equipped to deal with the event should it happen. I've read The Gunslinger about half a dozen times, but doing so hasn't made me a better shot with a revolver. I've read Call of the Wild and Into the Wild but neither book made me feel like I was suddenly better equipped at living in the wilds of Alaska. I've watched and read Deliverance, but that doesn't mean I can hop in a canoe tomorrow and go white water rafting (or rape some dude) without an expert with me (for the rafting... not the raping).

Think about 10 people you know. They can be family, friends, or just acquaintances. How many are well-equipped and prepared to leave today and go camping primitive-style for a night or a weekend, let alone weeks or months? I imagine its less than half, if any at all. Now think about your mom, uncle, aunt, grandparents, siblings? How many of them know more about zombies than that they're movie monsters?

Why should the random collection of strangers in TWD be any different?

[Ran]

There's a touching belief that the pop-culture junk we shove into our heads can, some day, prove useful.

It's cute. ;)

But seriously speaking, yeah, I actually think in the comic the word "zombie" is never really even used, is it? And there's a distinct lack of pop culture references to them in the comic, in any case, even if there are references to zombies.

[Tears of Lys]

There's a touching belief that the pop-culture junk we shove into our heads can, some day, prove useful.

It's cute. ;)

But seriously speaking, yeah, I actually think in the comic the word "zombie" is never really even used, is it? And there's a distinct lack of pop culture references to them in the comic, in any case, even if there are references to zombies.

Do you mean I've been hoarding crosses in preparation for the onslaught of vampires for NOTHING?? And what's the shelf-life on holy water? Anybody know?

Seriously, it's more funny than touching.

[Insert Edit]

Never, ever, split up when being stalked.

Never, ever, wear a red security tunic.

When the music swells and the camera moves in tight, duck.

These things I've learned from pop-culture.

[Tears of Lys]

I can sympathise somewhat. I've had Klaatu barada nikto committed to memory for years JUST IN CASE!

[Balefont]

Gah! Even if the TWD world is one sans-Zombies in pop culture, is it also a world sans-potential-for-societal-breakdown? (FWIW, I'd fear roving gangs and competitve survivors more than I'd fear shambling zombies.)

Tthe very fact that they hung tin cans on strings to notify them of the walking dead crossing their perimeter is enough to prove that they are aware an alert system was needed. AND that the tin can system was proven to have failed or been incopetent at best when, in an earlier episdode, a walking dead person was found feeding on a deer so close to camp.

[Insert Edit]

Gah! Even if the TWD world is one sans-Zombies in pop culture, is it also a world sans-potential-for-societal-breakdown? (FWIW, I'd fear roving gangs and competitve survivors more than I'd fear shambling zombies.)

Tthe very fact that they hung tin cans on strings to notify them of the walking dead crossing their perimeter is enough to prove that they are aware an alert system was needed. AND that the tin can system was proven to have failed or been incopetent at best when, in an earlier episdode, a walking dead person was found feeding on a deer so close to camp.

Of course the 'I'd do it differently,' is sure an incentive to watch the show...

[Centrist Simon Steele]

See, I've been giving this a lot of thought. (Not about Wil but about TWD's setting.) Being set in presumably our world, you mean to tell me that not one of these survivors has read or seen a movie or tv show that had to do with a) a zombie apocalypse (Diary of the Dead, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, Resident Evil, 28 Days Later - to name a few), b ) a viral apocalypse (The Stand, etc.), c) a nuclear apocalypse (Jericho), or books/movies like The Postman? Something?! Anything that might provide even some minimal insight to survival in an end-of-the-world setting?

To me, I think that is more unreasonable than accepting that all these people aren't clueless but behaving quite naturally.

At least AGoT is completely removed from our current reality and therefore has a lot more wiggle-room in the face of criticism.

I agree, saying this is a world where there is no zombie pop culture would be like just making up other strange assumptions like this is a reality where there are no such things as defensive strategies. I mean it's ridiculous to assume no one has heard of a zombie. It'd be like in a vampire movie if one of the characters said something like "what is this vampire creature you speak of?" It's just not plausible. You'd have to set this on an alien world to assume there are no zombies.

And seriously, once the SINGLE zombie wandered into camp they'd have done something. My son when he was very sick with Leukemia had to go to the hospital if he ever had a fever or he could die. I remember if he even felt slightly warm I couldn't sleep well for a week. I was always checking to make sure he was okay.

Once one of the zombies showed up you'd think they'd not just dismiss it. Bells on a string? Whatever. It's like having a baby monitor when your kid is real sick. That thing is useless. You're going above and beyond and not relying on one single thing to alert you to trouble.

And the argument isn't how to defend against zombies because of pop culture, it's how to use common fucking sense in an emergency.

I mean maybe it's difficult for me because I was in the military and I'd be the first to suggest rotating shifting guard shifts. A four hour fire guard is nothing if you keep moving and use the buddy system. I mean you don't need trained soldiers all over to form some kind of lookout.

Shooting zombies in the head is pointless to discuss. People know what they are because of pop culture, they know these real zombies want to eat humans and follow loud noises, what more do you need to set up a rudimentary defense system of roving patrols in addition to cans on a string. How to best kill your enemy is something learned first hand, that's obvious. You don't learn "zombie survival skills" from zombie movies. But you know what they are.

This show is throwing a lot of logic out the window.

[Arthmail]

I'm just blown away how you think that one zombie in a month's time, maybe even more, should mean these guys should think to be on guard twenty-four hours a day behind a wall of wood. That random zombie could have been a friggin farmer, so there is zero indication that the zombie were going to wander out that far.

Really man, i think its a nitpick of your own that most people don't seem to have a problem with. Its too bad, really, because this is a good series.

[Arthmail]

I agree, saying this is a world where there is no zombie pop culture would be like just making up other strange assumptions like this is a reality where there are no such things as defensive strategies. I mean it's ridiculous to assume no one has heard of a zombie. It'd be like in a vampire movie if one of the characters said something like "what is this vampire creature you speak of?" It's just not plausible. You'd have to set this on an alien world to assume there are no zombies.

And seriously, once the SINGLE zombie wandered into camp they'd have done something. My son when he was very sick with Leukemia had to go to the hospital if he ever had a fever or he could die. I remember if he even felt slightly warm I couldn't sleep well for a week. I was always checking to make sure he was okay.

Once one of the zombies showed up you'd think they'd not just dismiss it.

Its not a fucking assumption man. There is NEVER ANY mention of the word zombie. If this were to happen to us, in our world, the first thing that people would mention is the word zombie. At least once. Its never mentioned in the comics that i can remember, nor has it been said in the show. In vampire movies, they always say the word vampire. All of the time. It directly references the mythology of the creature and its affects upon the world. They often even make fun of it, or change the rules because people expect the same thing from their vampires.

This is almost never done in zombie fiction. I've never seen a zombie flick where they say, "shoot it in the head!", and then it turns out they have to shoot it in the heart. Every time, they have to learn how to effectively kill the zombies. Hell, even in 28 Days Later, where the creatures are like zombies but not, no one ever says: "Man, those things are fast. They're like fast zombies."

And ultimately, what is one zombie? As i've said ad nauseum, they have been there for at least a month. That's when the father said the power went out, meaning that there was no one left alive to actually get it going again. That sort of loss does not happen over night, Atlanta would not have fallen over night. Meaning that they have probably been in that camp for longer than a month. Perhaps two months even, as certain systems would probably keep running even without people to care for them.

So a month, at least. And one zombie. Once more, i will also repeat the statement that soldiers IN WAR have been taken unaware, or gotten sloppy. This criticism just makes so little sense.

I'd be more interested in coming to understand how Rick, after at least a month or more in a coma, could just get up and walk away.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

A couple of points. First:

So a month, at least. And one zombie. Once more, i will also repeat the statement that soldiers IN WAR have been taken unaware, or gotten sloppy. This criticism just makes so little sense.

I'd be more interested in coming to understand how Rick, after at least a month or more in a coma, could just get up and walk away.

I think you answered part of your misunderstanding in what I'm saying in your first paragraph. I am not arguing the camp shouldn't have been overrun, and I should be more clear about it. But written as is the plot point seems contrived. They should have had more than one line of defense, it's common sense--as I said with my sick son, those first two months I hardly slept at all. And I absolutely fucked up and made mistakes. So translate that to the fiction here. They have more than tin cans, they have guards, and hell, let's give these morons a bit more cred and have them build some defensive structures. And then while they're eating fish fry, FEELING very safe, one of their sentries sits down and falls asleep and the zombies make their way in. Or his lack of training, or his lack of night vision goggles let him get surprised. It would far better illustrate the reality of surviving in a post apocalyptic world vs. our views of how easy it would be. But the fact this is treated like a camp out just makes it hard to feel for the survivors.

I mean look at 28 Weeks Later, the fate of the small group on foot is far more effective because of the mistakes the battle hardened soldiers make. The Delta Force sniper is heroic and someone you want to completely trust in that movie, but he makes some very poor decisions. Tragedy works better when there seems to be an effective plan for survival in place.

Second, as for the mentioning of zombies--well there are a number of fantastic reasons we could discuss in depth as to why they don't say the word. As a writer who is trying to get his own zombie novel published, I can tell you from my experience my characters never say zombies either. They say undead, walking dead, or some variation. But they know about zombies in my book, and it's made very clear in a few instances by mentioning a few famous movies they watched. The reason I don't use the word "zombie" isn't because it's a non zombie world, but because the word "zombie" indicates b movie status. As many zombie movies makers, and obviously the Walking Dead as well, these films aspire to be better than b movies for the most part, given the lofty expectations set by the first pop culture zombie film, Night of the Living Dead. That movie proved this genre is wonderful for developing social commentary and studying human character. My assumption in any film or book that doesn't say "zombie" is to keep from putting themselves in the b movie category right out of the cage.

Any time I am asked what my book is about I have noticed a STARK contrast between when I say "it's a zombie novel" or "it's an apocalyptic novel about the end of the world." The second often is responded to more favorably. It's the reason I originally omitted the word "zombie" in the rewrite.

The lack of knowledge of zombies worked in Night of Living Dead and its sequels because those line of movies created zombies. But hell, even in later sequels like Land of the Dead and the horrid Diary of the Dead, mentions the word "zombie". To say newer films don't mention it because zombies don't exist in that world just doesn't fly. Give the recent mainstream run of zombie movies another thirty years and they'll be like vampires, you can probably mention "zombies" with only about fifty percent of the people rolling their eyes.

Anyway, you're right. Why can Rick walk? Another example of the laziness of the writing. This show could be amazing, but it's taking too many narrative shortcuts.

[Insert Edit]

It's called suspension of disbelief. It's a friggin' show about zombies for crissakes.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

It's called suspension of disbelief. It's a friggin' show about zombies for crissakes.

Again, that's the weakest excuse and it doesn't work. Sorry.